decoration decoration
Stories

GROKLAW
When you want to know more...
decoration
For layout only
Home
Archives
Site Map
Search
About Groklaw
Awards
Legal Research
Timelines
ApplevSamsung
ApplevSamsung p.2
ArchiveExplorer
Autozone
Bilski
Cases
Cast: Lawyers
Comes v. MS
Contracts/Documents
Courts
DRM
Gordon v MS
GPL
Grokdoc
HTML How To
IPI v RH
IV v. Google
Legal Docs
Lodsys
MS Litigations
MSvB&N
News Picks
Novell v. MS
Novell-MS Deal
ODF/OOXML
OOXML Appeals
OraclevGoogle
Patents
ProjectMonterey
Psystar
Quote Database
Red Hat v SCO
Salus Book
SCEA v Hotz
SCO Appeals
SCO Bankruptcy
SCO Financials
SCO Overview
SCO v IBM
SCO v Novell
SCO:Soup2Nuts
SCOsource
Sean Daly
Software Patents
Switch to Linux
Transcripts
Unix Books

Gear

Groklaw Gear

Click here to send an email to the editor of this weblog.


You won't find me on Facebook


Donate

Donate Paypal


No Legal Advice

The information on Groklaw is not intended to constitute legal advice. While Mark is a lawyer and he has asked other lawyers and law students to contribute articles, all of these articles are offered to help educate, not to provide specific legal advice. They are not your lawyers.

Here's Groklaw's comments policy.


What's New

STORIES
No new stories

COMMENTS last 48 hrs
No new comments


Sponsors

Hosting:
hosted by ibiblio

On servers donated to ibiblio by AMD.

Webmaster
SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Monday, September 06 2004 @ 10:31 AM EDT

This is SCO's Memorandum in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike the July 12, 2004 Declaration of Christopher Sontag. At least, that is what they call it. It is supposed to be where SCO tells the court why the declaration should not be stricken. Instead, SCO mostly bursts out into song again on their theme of how badly they want and need to look at all the AIX and Dynix code since the beginning of time.

Now they say they never meant for Sontag to be offering an expert opinion. His declaration should be viewed as a kind of summary, as per Utah Rules of Evidence 1006. That rule says:

"Rule 1006. Summaries.

"The contents of voluminous writings, recordings, or photographs which cannot conveniently be examined in court may be presented in the form of a chart, summary, or calculation. The originals, or duplicates, shall be made available for examination or copying, or both, by other parties at a reasonable time and place. The court may order that they be produced in court."

The application SCO makes is that his declaration was mostly just a way to bring exhibits to the attention of the court:

"In many regards, Mr. Sontag's observations simply reflect a permissable summary of the documents referenced. See Utah R. Evid. 1006."

Does that makes any sense to you, or does it look more like clutching at straws?

The level of argument throughout is such things as IBM saying in one place that handing over the code would take many months and in another, many weeks. SCO pretends that is a contradiction. Many weeks could equal many months, of course, but SCO acts like they have caught IBM in a lie. It's ridiculous. Or even sillier, that it's an "admission" by IBM that it wouldn't be burdensome to ferret out all the code and comments SCO wants. IBM has already told the court it would be burdensome, so to argue that they have made an admission otherwise is pointless.

There is a convoluted argument that goes sort of like this: Sontag isn't an expert. Non-experts can testify as to facts they have personal knowledge of. They can review documents and testify as to their opinions on the documents. They cite a case where a witness was allowed to testify, based on a review of company documents, as to events that happened prior to his tenure. Therefore, Sontag's declaration should be allowed. What does that case have to do with Sontag reading IBM booklets about CMVC and then giving his non-expert testimony about CMVC? He's testifying as to his opinion of something he has never used or seen work, so what is the basis for his "summary" and his opinion? If he were now in Joan Thomas' job, maybe then he could read all that stuff and give his opinion of what happened in 1993, despite not having the job in 1993, but he's not an expert and he has no personal experience with CMVC, so ... well, you see what I mean. They drop a stitch in the logic, but just barrel ahead anyway. By their logic, anyone you dragged in off the street could testify to anything they read on the internet and then give their opinion on it. I think standards in a courtroom are higher than that.

I think they think so too, because they go on to try to qualify Mr. Sontag as an expert. He oversaw the work of hundreds of developers at Novell, they state, as if that will make him an expert in something as massive as CMVC. Then they quote from a case that says an expert witness can give opinions based on review of documents and experience in an industry, and so far so good, but not "flights of fancy, speculations, hunches, intuitions or rumors", but that's exactly what Sontag offers when he testifies that he doesn't believe CMVC can work the way IBM says it works. Without some kind of proof or specificity otherwise or experience with that precise type of system at least, what is that but speculation?

They go on and on about CMVC and how it violates all reason to think that it wouldn't have what they want it to have in it. But they want extremely old code, from a system that IBM has already indicated isn't arranged the way they want. It wasn't designed for lawsuit-readiness. And while SCO quotes IBM documents that say you can readily track "your application" or your "project", AIX isn't an application. Because I have no knowledge of such systems, I asked someone to explain to me in layman's terms the SCO arguments and to give me an opinion, since I knew he had several years' experience (including their use on large public sector projects) with various software version control systems. Here is what he explained to me:

"SCO seems to be relying on the judge not being an IT expert and is, I believe, mischaracterising the way VC (version control) systems are used in the real world for non-trivial applications.

"I have not personally used CMVC but have used CVS, PVCS and VSS, which are of similar vintage. They have differences; but the similarities, in terms of the overall way they hook into the development process, are much larger. So I am fairly confident that what I'm about to say is largely correct.

"1) Application tracking -- VC systems allow you to mark a version of your application with a label. This enables you to retrieve that old version at a later date. However, you can only easily retrieve a version that you took the time to label.

"Example: On Tuesday, I put a label in for my application called 'MyApp_Tuesday'. Over the next few days I continue hacking. The next week, the boss asks me for Tuesday's version of the app. No problemo! VC gives it to me. But if the boss asks for Wednesday's version of the app, things are harder, because I didn't bother to put in a label.

"Normally, one only puts in labels for those versions of an app which are likely to be needed again in future. Those would be the versions which get released - either to the public or for some internal milestone. So, going purely on labels, the versions of AIX that IBM would be able to easily get hold of would be the released versions. But, if I understand correctly, IBM has already given SCO those; SCO wants the *intermediate* versions, which have no formal name - and likely, no label.

"SCO is using how easy it is for IBM to hand over what IBM has already handed over, as an argument that it must be equally easy for them to hand over what they haven't.

"2) Apps and Systems -- You are quite right that AIX isn't an application. Nor is it even a set of applications that were conceived and written at one time as one single project. It is a system that has grown and evolved. Over time, new parts and applications have been added, and other parts have been removed. There are parts of AIX which most likely are also present in other systems.

"The first point that arises from this is that the 'labels' in the VC system may not say 'AIX version 2' or similar. There may be a label on the foo application saying 'Foo v4' and a label on the Bar application saying 'Bar v6' and somewhere else *outside* the VC system, a table saying that in AIX v2 we have Foo v4 and Bar v6. That creates another level of difficulty in recreating an intermediate version.

"The second point is brought up by Joan Thomas herself: 'Paragraphs 15 through 30 of the Sontag Declaration are all based on Mr. Sontag's erroneous assumption that CMVC is organized in a way similar to that depicted by Figure 1 of the Sontag Declaration. In fact, CMVC's directory hierarchy is completely different than that posited by Mr. Sontag.'

"If we think about AIX for a moment, that system has a logical structure, rather like a company's organizational chart. Some modules are in charge of others, some talk to each other, etc., and you can express these relationships by the arrangement of the modules in the diagram.

"Point (i): the arrangement of the AIX source code on the disk need not, and for good reasons (include paths etc.) will almost certainly not, look anything like the logical arrangement of the AIX system.

"Point(ii): the arrangement of the modules in the VC database need not, and because of the evolutionary way AIX has developed probably will not, look much like the arrangement of the source code on disk.

"Although the CMVC page link in Argument, Section A, to http://www.cs.queensu.ca./Software-Engineering/blurb/cmvc says 'Within the family, the components are arranged in a tree-like hierarchical structure that reflects the structure of your organization and the structure of the projects you are working on,' this is is referring to a possibility, not a necessity. And indeed, when you have an evolving product, it is a positive *boon* that you can change the on-disk/logical structure of your application without being forced to change the layout inside the VC system.

"There are *two* levels of disconnect here. Therefore, the diagram of the logical structure of AIX is not necessarily of any use in locating the code on the VC system. If AIX were a single application that had been conceived, designed and written as a tidy single project by one team, then things might be different. But AIX is a complex operating system developed over many years by many teams in many buildings.

"But, you may ask, how can such a system work? Isn't it impossible to code efficiently if you can't get from 'logical unit' to 'VC file' easily?

"The answer is that a VC system is a working system, not an archival system. It isn't a glorified backup program. And as such, it is designed so that while some things (like complying with discovery requests) are very hard; those things are the things you don't need to do all the time. The things you do need to do day in, day out -- like making a bugfix in a source file and releasing it to the testing department -- are easy.

"My Conclusion

"It is possible to imagine a way in which AIX could have been stored in CMVC such that complying with an extensive discovery order would be made easier. But software projects are not usually managed with the assumption they will be the subject of lawsuits. Crucially, VC systems enable 'mixed-up' layouts, which make wholesale retrieval laborious but enable development to continue without interruption, to be used without loss of efficiency. So the argument that no company could operate with such a layout is simply incorrect, based on a lack of understanding of how VCs work in practice."

Of course, this isn't testimony in a court of law, but I know many of us are not programmers, including me, and we need help to follow some of the technical arguments.

SCO ends by asking the court to keep as much of Sontag's declaration as possible and throw out only the parts he has no personal knowledge of. That would be a lot, by IBM's reckoning. And they have come up with a new way to delay, I think. If the court declines to deny IBM's motion to strike, and I suspect they think that might happen, they ask that the court order the immediate deposition of Joan Thomas, so they can ask her all about CMVC. I am not clear why they can't just depose her anyway, regardless of what happens to this particular motion, but I could be missing something.

But under all that they say, there is the underlying theme that shows up in everything they do now, in every courtroom, regardless of their victim. It's all about their attempt to stretch copyright law to make it encompass methods and concepts according to SCO's lights. That's why they can't exhale until they get all that AIX code, and they as much as acknowledge that purpose. Here's why they say they want it:

"First, the discovery sought is indisputably relevant: it contains or will lead to the discovery of admissions impeaching the contract interpretations IBM offers in its pending summary judgment motion; it contains material showing that IBM depended on UNIX to develop products in ways that, under the contract, prevented the later contribution of all or any part of those products into Linux; and it will be necessary to test IBM's own claim to the Court (its Ninth Counterclaim) that, independent of any Linux issue, nothing in the entire history of AIX violated any SCO copyright (IBM's sophisticated central storage system, 'CMVC,' contains the entire development history that the IBM Ninth Counterclaim asks the Court to declare free of any violation of any SCO copyright)."

IBM's 9th counterclaim is about this:

"164. SCO has sued IBM claiming that IBM has infringed, induced the infringement of, and contributed to the infringement of, SCO's purported UNIX copyrights by, among other things, continuing to 'reproduce, prepare derivative works of, and distribute copyrighted UNIX materials through its activities relating to AIX and Dynix'. . . .

"167. IBM is entitled to a declaratory judgment pursuant to 28 U. C. Section 2201 that IBM does not infringe, induce the infringement of, or contribute to the infringement of any SCO copyright through the reproduction, improvement, and distribution of AIX and Dynix, and that some or all of SCO's purported copyrights in UNIX are invalid and unenforceable."

I can see why Microsoft might want to fund something like this methods and concepts attempted land grab, even if I can't approve. If SCO can place methods and concepts in software soundly and utterly under copyright law, Microsoft can control and kill off anything in GNU/Linux that acts like their software, and even more effective, SCO can block anything that acts like UNIX, and then what's left of GNU/Linux? All software tends to do the same tasks. So whoever started first wins, in such an IP universe. No one can follow on at all, because most if not all of the methods and concepts are quickly taken. And with the DMCA in their sling shots, they could shut down anybody they wish, like a huge, crazed RIAA. And then, voila! A monopoly on steroids, raking in the dough, and GNU/Linux dead and bleeding on the floor or exiled to the noncommercial space. I think that was the SCO strategy, and that's why they are so desperate to establish this methods and concepts idea and why they put it forth everywhere, even though so far, it's been on a slow boat to nowhere.

Thanks go to David Truog for transcribing.

***********************


Brent O. Hatch (5715)
Mark F. James (5295)
HATCH, JAMES & DODGE
[address, telephone, fax]

Stephen N. Zack (admitted pro hac vice)
Mark J. Heise (admitted pro hac vice)
BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER LLP
[address, telephone, fax]

Robert Silver (admitted pro hac vice)
BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER
[address, telephone, fax]

Frederick S. Frei (admitted pro hac vice)
Aldo Noto (admitted pro hac vice)
John K. Harrop (admitted pro hac vice)
ANDREWS KURTH LLP
[address, telephone, fax]

Attorneys for The SCO Group, Inc.

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF UTAH


THE SCO GROUP

     Plaintiff/Counterclaim-Defendant

v.

INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS
MACHINES CORPORATION,

     Defendant/Counterclaim-Plaintiff

MEMORANDUM IN OPPOSITION TO
DEFENDANT INTERNATIONAL
BUSINESS MACHINES
CORPORATION'S MOTION TO
STRIKE THE JULY 12, 2004
DECLARATION OF CHRIS SONTAG


Case No. 2:03CV0294DAK

Honorable Dale A. Kimball
Magistrate Judge Brooke C. Wells


TABLE OF CONTENTS
TABLE OF AUTHORITIES ii
Preliminary Statement 1
Background 4
Argument 6
A.     IBM Admits That Complying with Its Discovery Obligations Is Not Burdensome 6
B.     The Sontag Declaration Is Based on Personal Knowledge 10
C.     If the Court Concludes That an Expert Opinion Is Required, Mr. Sontag Qualifies as an Expert 13
D.     IBM's Request to Strike the Entire Declaration Is Meritless 13
Conclusion 15



TABLE OF AUTHORITIES
CASES
A.H.L. Inc. of Del, v. Star Ins. Co.,
10 F. Supp. 2d 1216 (D. Kan. 1998)
14
Burton v. R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Co.,
183 F. Supp. 2d 1308 (D. Kan. 2002)
13
Fenstermacher v. Telelect, Inc.,
21 F.3d 1121 (10th Cir. 1994)
10, 12
Fla. Farm Bureau Mut. Ins. Co. v. B & B Miller Farms. Inc.
No. 87-1021-C, 1991 WL 201188 (D. Kan. Sept. 17, 1991)
11
Kloepfer v. Honda Motor Co.,
898 F.2d 1452 (10th Cir. 1990)
11
S.E.C. v. Wolfson,
309 B.R. 612 (D. Utah 2004)
12
In re Tex. E. Transmission Corp. PCB Contamination Ins. Coverage Lit.
870 F. Supp. 1293 (E.D. Pa. 1992), affd, 995 F.2d 219 (3d Cir. 1993)
11
Trestle & Tower Eng'g. Inc. v. Star Ins. Co.,
13 F. Supp. 2d 1166 (D. Kan. 1998)
14
Visser v. Packer Eng'a Assocs. Inc.
924 F.2d 655 (7th Cir. 1991)
10, 12
STATUTES AND OTHER AUTHORITIES
Fed. R. Civ. P. 26(b) 7
Fed. R. Civ. P. 34(b) 8
Fed. R. Evid. 701 12
Report of the Special Committee for the Study of Discovery Abuse, Section of Litigation of the American Bar Association (1977) 9


Plaintiff The SCO Group, Inc. ("SCO") respectfully submits this Memorandum in opposition to defendant International Business Machines Corporation's ("IBM") Motion to Strike the July 12, 2004 Declaration of Chris Sontag (the "Motion").

Preliminary Statement

IBM's Motion is an attempt to prevent the Court from seeing (1) IBM public documents that contradict IBM statements to this Court, and (2) the rudimentary, common-sense observations of an experienced industry participant that IBM, one of the most sophisticated computer companies in the world, would never deliberately make its internal operations as inefficient as IBM now tells the Court they are. IBM tries to prevent the Court from examining these two categories of evidence because IBM recognizes they undermine IBM's overall attempt to hold back more evidence.

To place IBM's argument in context, it is necessary first to describe what SCO has shown in support of its discovery motion independent of Mr. Sontag's declaration. SCO's motion seeks to compel IBM to produce the source code of the multiple versions of the AIX and Dynix/ptx computer operating systems and related materials stored in IBM's and Sequent's sophisticated centralized storage systems. As shown in SCO's May 28 and July 12 briefs1, SCO is entitled to that discovery for two reasons—both of which would apply even if there were no Sontag declaration and even if IBM's Thomas declaration were uncontradicted:

First, the discovery sought is indisputably relevant: it contains or will lead to the discovery of admissions impeaching the contract interpretations IBM offers in its pending summary judgment motion; it contains material showing that IBM depended on UNIX to develop products in ways that, under the contract, prevented the later contribution of all or any part of those products into Linux; and it will be necessary to test IBM's own claim to the Court (its Ninth Counterclaim) that, independent of any Linux issue, nothing in the entire history of AIX violated any SCO copyright (IBM's sophisticated central storage system, "CMVC," contains the entire development history that the IBM Ninth Counterclaim asks the Court to declare free of any violation of any SCO copyright).

Second. IBM's admissions show that producing the discovery at issue would plainly involve no undue burden. As SCO's July 12 brief makes clear, this fact is independent of any disagreement between Mr. Sontag and Ms. Thomas, and would be so even if there were no Sontag declaration and all of Ms. Thomas' assertions were credited as true. IBM admits that the materials SCO seeks relating to Dynix can be produced without any delay and that those relating to AIX can be produced in a matter of "weeks" (a reversal of IBM's original claim to this Court it would take "many, many months"). As SCO has shown, black-letter law makes clear that this is not an "undue" burden.

SCO thus does not need the Sontag declaration to prevail on this motion. SCO offered the declaration to demonstrate something else - the general lack of credibility of IBM's claims about discovery. The Sontag declaration does this in two ways, neither of which remotely requires specialized expert qualifications, and both of which IBM does not want this Court to be able to examine.

First. IBM has made numerous statements in public documents that contradict its claims to this Court. IBM tells this Court that using its CMVC is so difficult that it would take "many weeks" to produce the information SCO has requested. But in public documents, IBM told prospective customers that that very same storage technology should be valued because of the ease and speed with which it allowed access to that information. Mr. Sontag's declaration makes those IBM public documents available to the Court and calls the Court's attention to various key paragraphs—a function for which expert qualifications obviously are not needed.

Second, if IBM was not being accurate in its public documents, but instead was accurate in its statements to this Court, that would require the conclusion that IBM—one of the most sophisticated computer companies in the world - has adopted a system that imposes enormous internal inefficiency on itself. Mr. Sontag, based on his experience gained through a lengthy career in the industry as a software designer, engineer and manager of very large software projects, observes that this is highly implausible, particularly given IBM's stature and internal business needs—as well as given the availability of well known "top-down" technology. None of these observations—rudimentary to anyone with a background in the industry—remotely requires "expert" knowledge.

On the other hand, IBM's expert, Ms. Thomas, never even tries to reconcile her testimony with IBM's public statements, nor does she offer any explanation for the inefficiency she claims IBM's system imposes on it.

The Sontag declaration may thus be split into two parts: documents and testimony. There is no legitimate claim that the documents are inadmissible. The portion of Mr. Sontag's declaration containing testimony is also admissible, particularly in light of the supplemental Sontag declaration, filed herewith, setting forth Mr. Sontag's qualifications to provide the rudimentary, common-sense industry perspective. If IBM wishes to focus on expertise, however, IBM should make its purported expert available for deposition so that she may be examined about, among other things:

  • how IBM's public claims about the speed and ease of accessing information in its tracking system can be reconciled with its claims to this Court about how difficult it is to access information through that system;
  • why the particular commands outlined in IBM's manuals that automate the collection of the information SCO seeks would somehow not function in this particular case;
  • why IBM would contradict its public claims and impose such internal inefficiency on itself;
  • why IBM first said its production would require "many, many months" but now concedes it will only take "many weeks".

As discussed in more detail below, IBM's motion should be denied.

Background

IBM now concedes that compliance with SCO's discovery requests would not be unduly burdensome. IBM has never claimed that the Dynix materials maintained in Sequent's Revision Control System ("RCS") would be difficult to produce, and does not even address the portions of Mr. Sontag's declaration relating to RCS. (7/12/04 Sontag Dec. ¶¶ 36-39.) As for AIX, though IBM initially claimed that extracting the AIX materials from its CMVC version control system would take "many, many months" (2/06/04 Tr. at 37:10-14), it subsequently shortened that estimate to "many weeks" (6/23/04 Thomas Dec. ¶11) and, in its most recent filing, gives no concrete time frame at all. The simple fact is that if IBM can produce the materials, which are undisputedly relevant and discoverable, in a matter of weeks - even several weeks - it must do so. That simply cannot constitute an "undue burden" sufficient to relieve IBM of its obligation to produce relevant discovery, particularly when the materials were requested well over 60 weeks ago.

IBM's present claims also contradict its public statements that CMVC is designed to keep track of this material in an efficient manner. The idea that CMVC could fail so completely at its essential purpose is contrary to common sense. Mr. Sontag describes that contradiction, relying on IBM's statements to the Court and in public documents. IBM's declarant, Joan Thomas, claims Mr. Sontag's testimony "contains numerous factual errors." (8/4/04 Thomas Dec. ¶5.) Ms. Thomas utterly fails to point out these alleged errors, however, and instead expects the Court simply to accept her unsupported accusation:

      Since it is clear to me, from reading the Sontag Declaration, that Mr. Sontag does not have any personal knowledge of IBM's CMVC system, or of the time and effort involved in collection and producing the information sought by SCO, I will not attempt to itemize and correct all of the errors made in the Sontag Declaration. (Id.)2

More importantly, IBM's own documents, as well as fundamental reasoning that underlies CMVC in the first place, flatly contradict Ms. Thomas' testimony. In its user's guide to CMVC, entitled Did You Say CMVC? (the cited excerpts of which are attached to the 8/26/04 Sontag Declaration as Exhibit B), IBM describes the benefits of software configuration management (or "SCM"), which is the function CMVC performs:

      The primary benefit of SCM ensures that you can define and identify all elements comprising your application. It also ensures that you know exactly in which manner they are generated, preprocessed, compiled, linked or otherwise combined to form specific releases of your application and related documentation. SCM ensures that you keep a historical record of these release configurations along with the exact versions of all the components and the application itself at each release. This means that you can re-create exactly any previous release of your application, which exhibits a failing characteristic reported by end users.

(Sontag Dec. Ex. B at 2 (emphasis supplied).)

Thus, according to IBM, the primary benefit of CMVC is that it makes it possible to keep track of, and recreate as necessary, the exact elements, versions and components of any previous release of a software project, such as AIX. Ms. Thomas claims that the process of recreating and producing previous releases of AIX would require weeks of work by skilled engineers, even though IBM's own documentation indicates this as the automated function CMVC is designed to accomplish, precisely to avoid the need for manual re-creation. It simply strains credulity to assert, as Ms. Thomas does, that IBM, one of the most advanced technology companies in the world, would use a package that makes its "primary benefit" so difficult to achieve.

According to IBM's documents attached to Mr. Sontag's declaration (and contrary to Ms. Thomas' sworn testimony), every file on a CMVC server is associated with a particular product name (such as AIX) and is uniquely identified as such. The data is identified by project and releases can be easily extracted with a few commands. Were it otherwise, CMVC would not only fail to comply with basic industry standards, but would also be useless as a version management tool. Ms. Thomas' position therefore is not likely and is unpersuasive. Even were Ms. Thomas' position accurate, however, the discovery sought is highly relevant and, given the nature of this litigation and the vast resources of IBM, the discovery should be produced.

Argument

A.    IBM Admits That Complying with Its Discovery Obligations Is Not Burdensome.

IBM's Motion is a sideshow—an effort to shift focus away from its inexcusable failure to produce materials fundamental to SCO's case. IBM's strategy is two-pronged: by forcing the motion to compel in the first instance, IBM is attempting to duck its obligation to provide relevant discovery without offering any valid basis for doing so; by attacking Mr. Sontag, IBM hopes to distract the Court from the substance of the motion to compel. Simply put, IBM has not argued—because it cannot—that it would be "unduly burdened" by complying with SCO's discovery requests, the showing required by Fed. R. Civ. P. 26(b)(iii).

IBM's position regarding the alleged "burden" of providing discovery from CMVC has shifted over time. At first IBM told the Court that it would take "many, many months" to produce the information requested (2/06/04 Tr. at 37:10-14), then it stated that it would take "many weeks" to do so (6/23/04 Thomas Decl. ¶11), and now it takes no position at all on the time frame. IBM cannot possibly argue that a production measured in weeks could constitute an undue burden, particularly given the nature of this litigation, IBM's enormous resources, and in light of the fact that SCO requested this information over a year ago.

With respect to the volume of the discovery sought, IBM claims that it would amount to "millions of pages of documents" created by programmers and "40 million additional pages of paper" for additional source code. (IBM Motion at 3.) That statement is misleading. It might be true if IBM decided to print out relevant portions of its CMVC system and to provide that material in print-out format rather the original electronic format of all of CMVC as it is stored, configured, maintained and managed by IBM in the ordinary course of business. However, IBM admits that it is fully capable of producing the requested information in a compact, electronic format, exactly as maintained in the ordinary course of its business, as SCO has repeatedly requested (6/23/04 Thomas Decl. ¶¶ 10-11) and as the Federal Rules require.

In fact, SCO needs a faithful reproduction of CMVC in the precise format in which it is stored and maintained in the ordinary course of IBM's business so that discovery can be meaningful, accurate and not obfuscated by confusing production. With access to CMVC in electronic form, SCO will be able accurately to identify source code check-in dates, authors, comments, and original works that formed the basis of derived works in AIX. These issues are fundamental to its case, as IBM well knows, and would be lost (or at least hidden) in a massive "paper dump" of the kind IBM apparently contemplates. IBM is not entitled to block SCO's access to (and use, for purposes of this litigation, of) this critical information by producing it in a form that permits IBM to affect substantive issues in the case through discovery ploys.

SCO has made a straightforward discovery request for production of data from CMVC in its original format. IBM, however, at most wants to produce carefully selected sections of the original data in CMVC, without the original, configurable format of electronic data itself in an attempt to prevent SCO from accurately evaluating the way source code was checked into CMVC in the first instance, prevent SCO from analyzing and evaluating check-in dates or check-in comments, and make it far more difficult for SCO to trace IBM's own use of SCO's source code in AIX. That is precisely the kind of activity that Fed. R. Civ. P. 34(b) was designed to prevent. Rule 34(b) requires: "A party who produces documents for inspection shall produce them as they are kept in the usual course of business or shall organize and label them to correspond with categories in the request." The commentary to Rule 34 (b) states that this sentence was inserted in the 1980 Amendment to prevent the "obscuring" of the significance of documents produced.3 In short, a paper production would hide the traces of IBM's conduct that form the very basis for SCO's claims. As a matter of compliance with Rule 34(b), SCO is therefore entitled to full production of CMVC, in precisely the format and configuration it is stored, maintained and used by IBM in the ordinary course of its business.

IBM's own documents clearly state that it would not be limited in its ability to produce AIX source code:

  • IBM states: "CMVC is broad in its application, thorough in its implementation, and very flexible." (8/26/04 Sontag Dec. Ex. B (Did You Say CMVC?) at 65.)
  • IBM states: "The most important thing to understand about CMVC is that you do not need to understand all of it, before you begin using some of it... CMVC provides many mechanisms to help you accomplish your . . . goals, but it does not dictate exactly how you should use them, nor does it require that you use them all if you use only some of them." (Id.)
  • IBM states: "CMVC ensures that an audit trail is maintained for every file by identifying for any file change: when the change occurred, who was responsible, and why the file was modified." (Id, at 9.)
  • An IBM employee explained that the Version Control ("VC") function of CMVC "eliminates confusion when looking for a particular source code file belonging to a particular product." (7/12/04 Sontag Decl. Exh. 3 (Email from Adrian Mitu (IBM Canada), Aug. 19, 1993 (located at http://www.cs.queensu.ca./Software-Engineering/blurb/cmvc).)
  • Because CMVC data may be accessed remotely (id.), IBM could grant to SCO remote access to CMVC data to respond to SCO's document requests.

It is unclear how IBM can credibly attempt to argue that it faces an undue burden in producing the requested information. The Court should not be distracted by IBM's protestations concerning the Sontag declaration when the real issue is IBM's attempt to avoid its discovery obligations and its failure to establish that it would experience any burden in meeting those obligations.

B.    The Sontag Declaration Is Based on Personal Knowledge.

Mr. Sontag's declaration is based on personal knowledge, notwithstanding IBM's assertions to the contrary. It is not offered as an "expert" opinion and such an opinion is not required—the entire purpose of the declaration is to introduce certain documents and make certain common-sense observations about them based on Mr. Sontag's personal knowledge of the field. In many regards, Mr. Sontag's observations simply reflect a permissible summary of the documents referenced. See Utah R. Evid. 1006. Moreover, as set out in the additional declaration included herewith, Mr. Sontag has many years of experience supervising the source code control process.

Federal Rule of Evidence 701 provides: "If the witness is not testifying as an expert, the witness' testimony in the form of opinions or inferences is limited to those opinions or inferences which are (a) rationally based on the perception of the witness and (b) helpful to a clear understanding of the witness' testimony or the determination of a fact in issue." Thus, testimony may be given by a witness with personal knowledge of the subject matter of the testimony or in the form of opinions or inferences rationally based on perception. See Fenstermacher v. Telelect. Inc., 21 F.3d 1121 (Table), 1994 WL 118046, at *5 (10th Cir. Mar. 28, 1994); see also Visser v. Packer Eng'g Assocs., Inc., 924 F.2d 655, 659 (7th Cir. 1991) ("'[P]ersonal knowledge' includes inferences—all knowledge is inferential—and therefore opinions. But the inferences and opinions must be grounded in observation or other first-hand personal experience. They must not be flights of fancy, speculations, hunches, intuitions, or rumors about matters remote from that experience.") (citations omitted). "A witness may give an opinion when he has personal knowledge of the facts." Kloepfer v. Honda Motor Co., Ltd., 898 F.2d 1452, 1459 (10 th Cir. 1990). "If a witness is not testifying as an expert, his testimony need be rationally based on his perception and helpful to determination of a fact in issue to be admissible." Id.

As Mr. Sontag explicitly states, his declaration is based upon his review of documents, which is a permissible basis upon which to submit an affidavit. See, e.g., In re Tex. E. Transmission Corp. PCB Contamination Ins. Coverage Lit., 870 F. Supp. 1293, 1304 (E.D. Pa. 1992) (reliance on review of documents to acquire knowledge and vouching for truth of statements satisfied personal knowledge requirement for witness to testify about events that occurred before his term of responsibility), aff'd, 995 F.2d 219 (3d Cir. 1993); Fla. Farm Bureau Mut. Ins. Co. v. B & B Miller Farms. Inc., No. 87-1021-C, 1991 WL 201188, *11 (D. Kan. Sept. 17, 1991) (witness statement based on review of documents admissible). The Sontag declaration is based in large part on the numerous publicly available documents related to CMVC that IBM has published and that are posted on the Internet. See e.g., Sontag Decl. ¶¶ 5-12.

In additional to his review of IBM documents, and as set forth in his supplemental declaration, Mr. Sontag has an academic background in relevant areas of Computer Science and many years of experience supervising the source code control process. While at Novell, one of the positions that he held was director of program management. In that position he had overall responsibility for the development and release of the NetWare 4.0 product—an enormous project that included over 500 software developers, testers and documentation writers. Mr. Sontag was very familiar with the source control system used at Novell and implemented a number of stringent source lock-down procedures. From 1996 until 2000, as CTO of a company that he co-founded, Mr. Sontag had overall responsibility for software development, technical strategy, intellectual property and information systems as well as general executive management, and he led the evaluation and selection process of the source control and source management system that was used by the development team.

The law is clear that Mr. Sontag is permitted to give opinions and make inferences based on his review of the documents and his experience in the industry. See Fenstermacher, 21 F.3d 1121 (Table), 1994 WL 118046, at *5. Far from "flights of fancy, speculations, hunches, intuitions or rumors," Visser, 924 F.2d at 659, Mr. Sontag's declaration is based on his experience and his review of IBM's own documents.

Equally misleading is IBM's argument (to which it devotes minimal attention) that Mr. Sontag is not qualified as an expert. Although Mr. Sontag could certainly qualify as an expert in this field, that is a red herring: The subject matter of his declaration does not require an expert opinion. The Federal Rules of Evidence permit him to provide testimony in the form of opinions or inferences here, where they are rationally based on his perception (resulting from his experience in the industry and review of IBM's documents) and are helpful to a clear understanding of the determination of this discovery dispute. See Fed. R. Evid. 701. 4

C.    If the Court Concludes That an Expert Opinion Is Required, Mr. Sontag Qualifies as an Expert.

Although Mr. Sontag need not be qualified as an expert because his declaration is based on personal knowledge, Mr. Sontag in any event qualifies as an expert for purposes of resolving the discovery dispute currently before the Court.

To permit expert testimony, the Court must determine whether the proposed expert witness is qualified by "knowledge, skill, experience, training or education" to render an opinion. The dispositive question with regard to qualification is whether the opinion is "within the reasonable confines" of the expert's subject area. Burton v. RJ. Reynolds Tobacco Co., 183 F. Supp. 2d 1308, 1313-1314 (D. Kan. 2002). As discussed above, Mr. Sontag has many years experience, both academic and practical, in this area. He has been responsible for supervising the source code control process on complex projects involving hundreds of developers at Novell, and has had related experience at his own company, where he had overall responsibility for software development, technical strategy, intellectual property and information systems as well as general executive management. In those capacities he has led the evaluation and selection process of the source control and source management system used by the large development teams and he has first-hand, personal knowledge of the functions and features of those systems. There can be little dispute that Mr. Sontag possesses the knowledge, skill and experience to properly render an opinion here.

D.    IBM's Request to Strike the Entire Declaration Is Meritless.

Although Mr. Sontag's declaration is entirely proper and should not be stricken, in the event that the Court finds that some portion of Mr. Sontag's declaration should not be considered, the proper remedy is not the sweeping suggestion by IBM that the entire declaration be stricken. Rather, if the Court concludes that it will not consider some part of the declaration, the proper approach is to strike only that portion, not the entire declaration. See, e.g., Trestle & Tower Eng'g. Inc. v. Star Ins. Co., 13 F. Supp. 2d 1166, 1167 n.l (D.Kan. 1998) ("The court shall not strike the affidavit, but shall simply disregard those portions of the affidavit not based on personal knowledge"); A.H.L. Inc. of Del. v. Star Ins. Co., 10 F. Supp. 2d 1216, 1217 n.l (D. Kan. 1998) (same). Here, IBM seeks to strike Mr. Sontag's entire declaration without even specifying the particular paragraphs of Mr. Sontag's declaration IBM suggests are flawed.

As noted above, Ms. Thomas refuses to state what parts of Mr. Sontag's declaration she rejects; rather she states only that the assumptions underlying Mr. Sontag's top-down approach are flawed. (8/4/04 Thomas Decl. ¶ 5.) Given that Mr. Sontag's discussion of this approach constitutes less than one-quarter of his declaration (at most 10 paragraphs of 46), it is difficult to see how IBM can argue that, even if it is flawed (which it is not), that somehow poisons the entire declaration. IBM says nothing, for example, about Mr. Sontag's testimony relating to the structure of CMVC files, the ability to provide remote access, IBM's contradictory public statements about CMVC's functions, the ability to provide discovery in electronic form, or the RCS system. All of these areas IBM simply ignores.

Conclusion

SCO respectfully requests, for the reasons set forth above, that the Court deny IBM's Motion to Strike the Declaration of Chris Sontag or, in the alternative, order the immediate deposition of Joan Thomas on the issues herein.

DATED this 26th day of August, 2004.


_____[signed]_____
HATCH, JAMES & DODGE, P.C.
Brent O. Hatch
Mark F. James

BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER LLP
Robert Silver, Esq. (admitted pro hac vice)
Stephen N. Zack (admitted pro hac vice)
Mark J. Heise (admitted pro hac vice)

Attorneys for The SCO Group, Inc.


1 See SCO's May 28, 2004 Reply Memorandum in Support of its Motion to Amend the Scheduling Order and July 12, 2004 Reply Memorandum Regarding Discovery.

2Ms. Thomas does not know Mr. Sontag and has never spoken to him about his professional background or knowledge of CMVC or similar systems. She is testifying here to her opinion—that which is "clear" to her "from reading the Sontag Declaration." Although Ms. Thomas' conclusions happen, in this case, to be wrong, they are a perfectly valid subject for testimony. By IBM's logic, however, Ms. Thomas' entire declaration should be stricken—she neither has, nor claims, any personal knowledge of Mr. Sontag's state of mind whatsoever.

3Commentary to the 1980 Amendment to Rule 34(b) states: "The Committee is advised that, 'It is apparently not rare for parties deliberately to mix critical documents with others in the hope of obscuring significance.' Report of the Special Committee for the study of Discovery Abuse, Section of Litigation of the American Bar Association 22 (1977). The sentence added by this subdivision follows the recommendation of the Report."

4As noted above, IBM states that Mr. Sontag's declaration is "riddled with inaccuracies," yet cites only Ms. Thomas' declaration, which mentions only a single point of disagreement with Mr. Sontag and explicitly refuses to enumerate what those "inaccuracies" might be. See S.E.C. v. Wolfson, 309 B.R. 612, 629-30 (Bankr. D. Utah 2004) (declining to strike affidavit in the absence of specific examples of any claimed inaccuracies or evidentiary problems).


CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

Plaintiff, The SCO Group, hereby certifies that a true and correct copy of the foregoing MEMORANDUM IN OPPOSITFON TO DEFENDANT INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS MACHINES CORPORATION'S MOTION TO STRIKE THE JULY 12, 2004 DECLARATION OF CHRIS SONTAG was served on Defendant International Business Machines Corporation on this 26th day of August, 2004, by U.S. mail, postage prepaid, addressed to:

Alan L. Sullivan, Esq.
Todd M. Shaughnessy, Esq.
Snell & Wilmer L.L.P.
[address]
Copy to:
Evan R. Chesler, Esq.
Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP
[address]

Donald J. Rosenberg, Esq.
[address]

Attorneys for Defendant/Counterclaim Plaintiff IBM Corp.

_____[signature]______

Exhibits/Attachments to this document have not been scanned. Please see the case file.


  


SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text | 601 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Corrections Here, please.
Authored by: roboteye on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 10:46 AM EDT
What? I have to think of something witty?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Off Topic items here, please.
Authored by: roboteye on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 10:52 AM EDT
Most are interesting and you never know when a nugget of gold will appear.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Court summaries
Authored by: BobDowling on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 10:57 AM EDT
In many regards, Mr. Sontag's observations simply reflect a permissable summary of the documents referenced. See Utah R. Evid. 1006.

Presumably there is a mechanism to challenge such a summary. If one side presents a summary for the court's convenience the other side can say "Hey, that's not what the data says!"

Must a summary be presented under oath? If a summary is inaccurate, does that constitute perjury?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Silly question here...
Authored by: Stumbles on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 10:57 AM EDT
As noted SCOG in nearly every single document they file
with the court, in one way or another continues to keep
asking for more code.

Now I'm just a dumb guy here but can anyone tell me what
code if any SCOG has turned over to IBM?

---
You can tuna piano but you can't tuna fish.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:00 AM EDT
" And with the DMCA in their sling shots, they could shut down anybody they
wish, like a huge, crazed RIAA."

Nice comparison, but truly scary if it were to happen. In fact, anyone with
half a brain should realize that if concept etc were to creep into the copyright
umbrella innovation would be stifled like never before ... we would have to
rewrite/obliterate phrases like 'build a better mousetrap' b/c the concept would
be out of reach for improving upon, this makes me shudder ...

what makes me shudder even moreso is that you Americans have politicians like
O.Hatch who play sycophant to corporate interests, eventually and unfortunately
we Canadians are influenced by poor decisions south of the 49th.

TT

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:01 AM EDT
If SCO can place methods and concepts...under copyright law, Microsoft can
...kill off...GNU/Linux [and] SCO can block...UNIX."

Sure, and Novell can kill Microsoft. And DEC can too, who owns them now? HP? And
Wang can put 'em all out of business. Oh, the agony? Will it never end?

[ Reply to This | # ]

"Methods and concepts"
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:08 AM EDT
This looks to me (IANAL) like an attempt to create a hybrid between patents and
copyrights that give the holder the best of all possible worlds: an indefinite
term of exclusivity that doesn't require even cursory review by a patent office.
Since the basic "methods and concepts" behind UNIX are more or less
universally known in the software world, nobody could claim independent
invention. Therefore, by merely publishing a description of how something
works, someone could claim 95 years of exclusivity on an idea.

I guess it's a neat trick if you can pull it off, but it certainly doesn't
benefit the public. It looks more like intellectual feudalism than anything
even remotely approaching a free market.

--Robert Krawitz rlk@alum.mit.edu

[ Reply to This | # ]

Scare tactics?
Authored by: RealProgrammer on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:20 AM EDT

At first glance, the stuff at the bottom of the article about MicroSCOft killing off GNU/Linux looked like FUD.

Then I realized that it was reducto ad absurdum — PJ is saying that the obvious result of TSG's interpretation of copyright is an absurd situation, an obvious contradiction of what any reasonable person would think the law ought to be.

---
(I'm not a lawyer, but I know right from wrong)

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO Copyright Theories and Freedom
Authored by: dyfet on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:20 AM EDT
It is rather clear that the only way for companies like Microsoft, or SCO for that matter, to "win", would be for EVERYONE else to "loose". For the only way to defeat free software is to eliminate freedom itself from everyone.

This idea of establishing methods and concepts in copyright is both particularly ludicrious and dangerous. Since we are talking about copyright, rather than patents, lets see how this would be applied to other fields under copyright...

Well, I recall Agetha Christi explored many if not all of the methods and concepts possible in mystery stories. I assume that copyright longevity assures someone holds an active copyright on those works still. If we apply SCO's theory on copyrights to literature and writing, I guess nobody else would be able to write mystery stories. In fact, all literary ganras could in effect become single author ganras...

Let's explore music. I guess it could be claimed that Chuck Berry "invented" modern rock and roll. If this is demonstratebly so, and we apply SCO's ideas here, it is clear that anyone else applying the "methods and concepts" of Rock n Roll music would need the permission of and perhaps make their royalty payments to Chuck's estate.

Hmm...Copyright under SCO doctorine would actually become much more like software and business methods patents, with the addition of getting rid of that pesky 20 year expiration date...potentially a perpetual monoply on basic ideas and culture with the assistence of congressionally approved copyright extensions. I am sadly certain there are a few people that would salvitate at such a disgusting possibility.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Good for Microsoft?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:23 AM EDT
I think the "methods and concepts" idea would be an unmitigatable catastrophe for Microsoft. They weren't first on anything on this planet, even though their marketing machine got a lot of people believing otherwise.

IBM, Sun and HP/Compaq/Digital would suddenly find an extremely large and well-honed legal axe in their hands. Microsoft would quickly find themselves bleeding on the floor with Linux.

This is SCO's most interesting problem. SCO rides too many horses, and if they get traction on their theory on copyright law protection their buddies will behead them quicker than you can scream "more delay".

[ Reply to This | # ]

releases - another backfire coming
Authored by: Paul Shirley on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:32 AM EDT
Thus, according to IBM, the primary benefit of CMVC is that it makes it possible to keep track of, and recreate as necessary, the exact elements, versions and components of any previous release of a software project

Basically SCOG are hoping to confuse the court about what a release is and it's a bit like painting a huge target on their case for IBM to shoot at.

The funniest response would be to not challenge this statement at all, instead define for the court what a release means and casually mention that they already handed ALL retrievable releases to SCOG.

Watching SCOG try to explain how their statements apply to any un-released versions should be highly entertaining. The lawyers will have no clue and Sontag would look like an idiot or a liar, his choice.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: belzecue on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:35 AM EDT
>>>
By IBM's logic, however, Ms. Thomas' entire declaration should be stricken - she
neither has, nor claims, any personal knowledge of Mr. Sontag's state of mind
whatsoever.
<<<

Hehe. Thank you, ladies and germs. I'm here til Thursday. Try the veal.

>>>
As noted above, IBM states that Mr. Sontag's declaration is "riddled with
inaccuracies," yet cites only Ms. Thomas' declaration, which mentions only
a single point of disagreement with Mr. Sontag and explicitly refuses to
enumerate what those "inaccuracies" might be. See S.E.C. v. Wolfson,
309 B.R. 612, 629-30 (Bankr. D. Utah 2004) (declining to strike affidavit in the
absence of specific examples of any claimed inaccuracies or evidentiary
problems).
<<<

Yep, that sure did jump off the page on my first read through. I'm curious to
see how the Judge interprets that issue.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:38 AM EDT
Quote:

"If SCO can place methods and concepts in software soundly and utterly
under copyright law, Microsoft can control and kill off anything in GNU/Linux
that acts like their software, and even more effective, SCO can block anything
that acts like UNIX, and then what's left of GNU/Linux?"

This would work BOTH ways. Code written for GPL would prevent companies
creating similar code.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Bizarre ...
Authored by: dkpatrick on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:50 AM EDT
Deny deny deny.

The SCO claims against IBM are speading out like oak root fungus. Now they want
to argue, in court, whether IBM has successfully knocked down Sontag's
declaration or not.

Wasn't this whole thing about IP or contracts or something else? Now it's
turning into a fight about source control systems!

Delay delay delay

---
"Keep your friends close but your enemies closer!" -- Sun Tzu

[ Reply to This | # ]

BSD Unix
Authored by: JamesKatt on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:51 AM EDT
There is something called BSD Unix which SCO has ZERO control over. I'm
sure many methods and concepts are very similar if not identical in BSD Unix,
Unix System V and Linux. The problem I have with SCO's arguments is how
can methods and concepts then be copyrighted if they already exist in BSD
Unix?

Perhaps SCO's legal battles will lead people to look at BSD Unix as a platform.

I don't think the University of California (which clearly owns the copyright to

BSD Unix) is going to sue people for using and modifying BSD Unix when
used under the BSD license. Of course, BSD Unix underlies my favorite
operating system - Mac OS X.

---
I ANAL

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Opposition
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:56 AM EDT
Of course, if SCO's tactic is to delay as long as possible, then they will not
depose Joan Thomas until the last possible moment. Maybe they *want* Sontag's
declaration stricken (and thus the lackluster defense) in order to require more
time for this (and, I'm sure, a handful of strenuous memos [1] explaining how
important Joan Thomas's deposition is now because [2] they really, really need
that source code IBm is hiding.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 11:56 AM EDT
Quote:
"2) Apps and Systems -- You are quite right that AIX isn't an application. Nor is it even a set of applications that were conceived and written at one time as one single project. It is a system that has grown and evolved. Over time, new parts and applications have been added, and other parts have been removed. There are parts of AIX which most likely are also present in other systems.

"The first point that arises from this is that the 'labels' in the VC system may not say 'AIX version 2' or similar. There may be a label on the foo application saying 'Foo v4' and a label on the Bar application saying 'Bar v6' and somewhere else *outside* the VC system, a table saying that in AIX v2 we have Foo v4 and Bar v6. That creates another level of difficulty in recreating an intermediate version.

This expert is bit limited to CVS/PSVC/VSS.

This "level of difficulty" only related to aforementioned revision control systems. Enterprise systems a-la Rational Clear Case, and I believe IBM's CMVC have direct support for big software packages like AIX. You can put a label on complete operational system, saying which version of package must be included.

GNU Arch have this feature too.

IBM and all big vendors do label everything they do ship - intermediate versions might be not available at all. Try to imagine size of IBM software development: I doubt that every developer commit his work directly to global VC. Rather I'd expect they do commit it to local repository, which at some time (e.g. once per week) commit all work to global VC.

Still, we can only speculate - it is only IBM who knows it. My opinion here that even if IBM is lying - only they may know truth - SCO cannot know it. Even if they reasoning doesn't stand technically (I do not believe them here), as a matter of law - they win. IMHO they lie just to avoid preparing admissible form of VC system to SCO/court - that might be burdensome.

My conclusion. Getting versions of software from VC is easy. Making them admissible - burdensome.

P.S. CVS (and I expect PSVC/VSS as its derivatives) has this support too - but it is rather primitive and rudimentary - so called aliases. Alias is combination of labels (tags). Getting alias means getting all software under given set of labels. So every version of AIX in this ideology will be an alias which refers to versions of particular packages, which together compromise OS.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Obfusacting the issue, as always
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 12:00 PM EDT
This little nugget jumps out

With access to CMVC in electronic form, SCO will be able accurately to identify source code check-in dates, authors, comments, and original works that formed the basis of derived works in AIX.

This is, of course, what IBM has already done (less the checkin authors, probably). As your expert notes in the story, tagged versions are easy to get. That's not what they are asking for, of course.

To further elucidate why the source tree and final OS tree can be vastly different (and almost must be), let's look at the build of an OS from scratch. (You could see this on your own Linux build on a clean machine, by the way).

First, we get some configuration settings, such as the hardware target, support of certain data types and about a few thousand more. Most of this ends up in autogenerated header files (they did not exist until now) from some utilities that come with the OS source tree. Next, we have to compile the system libraries. The source for (for instance) the standard C library will, by definition, be scattered across many a directory (think of all the functions in man(2) and man(3) where most of the standard C lib is documented). As a quick example, the _open() function (usually the lowest level of IO) may exist in a completely separate source tree with it's own tags. The build process extracts this tagged version.

Having built the libraries, they then go to their target directories (this is, of course, the OS directory tree) in /lib, /usr/lib and a few other places [depending on the directory structure].

Then we can start building the OS itself, but again, probably (almost certainly) from multiple source trees.

Although this works great for tagged trees, let's take a for instance here - let's say that utility foo() is in some repository (utils_of_the_week_9) with some number of release tags. The one for AIX requires that we get the source with the tag 'OS_utils_rel_5' (obviously, I am making up names).

This may be because the utility foo() is used in many products (not just OS level either) as a building block, perhaps. So although the scripts to generate the OS will correctly identify the tag for this code for this product, there may well be hundreds of other versions of this code that would never work with AIX (for instance).

So it is quite clear to me (having used SC systems for over 20 years) that the source repository usually looks nothing like the destination directory structure, and that a particular piece of code that may be in a product may also be in other products, but with slightly different code for various reasons.

SCOG is glossing all over this, and I fully expect IBM to call them on it.

PeteS (on the road).

[ Reply to This | # ]

Go Back Further... way back
Authored by: snorpus on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 12:18 PM EDT
We can trace the hardware "methods and concepts" to Charles Babbage, and the software ones to Ada Byron, Countess of Lovelace. Throw in Westinghouse and Edison for the necessary conversion to electrical circuitry, DeForest for the vacuum tube, and maybe Boole for the logic.

We can let the Atasanoff-Berry camp battle it out vs. the Mauchley-Eckert proponents for first practical implementation. And, of course, they're all Turing machines, aren't they?

---
73/88 de KQ3T ---
Montani Semper Liberi

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 12:20 PM EDT
This enables you to retrieve that old version at a later date. However, you can only easily retrieve a version that you took the time to label.

This is not true. He says that he used to work with CVS so he should now that you can retrieve every version of a file, either by date or by revision number (unless you lost the revision information due to a copy or something, ofcourse).

To retrieve files from a certain date (under cvs) you do:
cvs up -d [date] [..]

To retrieve files of a certion revision you do:
cvs up -r [rev] [..]

It's not that difficult :-)

[ Reply to This | # ]

We will test them in the CVS, we will test them in...?
Authored by: rand on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 12:31 PM EDT
What an absolutely bizarre theory. SCOG's copyright claims, it seems, are related to IBM's USE of licensed code after SCOG's attempt to reoke the UNIX license. IBM has already admitted to using the licensed code after SCOG tried to void the license, but in order to prove that,

...it will be necessary to test IBM's own claim to the Court (its Ninth Counterclaim) that, independent of any Linux issue, nothing in the entire history of AIX violated any SCO copyright...

Interesting, did they (SCOG) ever really answer the last line of the Ninth Counterclaim:

...that some or all ofSCO' s purported copyrights in UNIX are invalid and unenforceable.
???

---
Eat a toad for breakfast -- it makes the rest of the day seem so much easier (Chinese (I'm told) proverb) (IANAL and so forth and so on)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Using the legal system for mud-slinging?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 12:33 PM EDT
IANAL and IMHO
I suspect that some of the tactics that SCO are trying to use are nothing more
than trying to find a way to sling some mud at IBM.
They said previously they wanted to get at IBM's customers.
Now, I think, they are trying to "rubbish" IBM's internal processes.
I doubt this is really about what, if anything, SCO could find, even using their
eccentric derivation theories. I suspect this is simply about trying to find
some way to hurt IBM under the guise of the legal procedings.
Not nice, but I doubt anybody thinks SCO are trying to be nice to IBM.
I cannot prove this, of course, since it is just my personal interpretation of
their statements etc. and I suppose somebody could say that I'm purporting to be
able to "read" their state of mind and intentions, despite not being a
mind-reader.
Nevertheless in my humble opinion, I still suspect that really is what they are
trying to achieve here regarding asking for access to IBM's internal system,
immediate deposition of Joan Thomas etc..

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO writes textbook on bad faith
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 12:54 PM EDT

All this will forever put the names of SCO and Darl McBride
in business school textbooks around the world as the classic
examples of bad faith.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Intermediate files are irrelevant!
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 12:57 PM EDT
Why all this discussion about whether it's easy or not for IBM to produce all the intermediate files!.. I just don't get why IBM is even going along with this arguement, it only gives SCO more weight in their requests!

The facts as I understand them so far are this.... SCO has produced NO evidence that there's been any copying. NONE.

Without some evidence of an initial crime, I don't believe that they are entitled to do more discovery. IANAL but, I seem to recollect that you need some initial evidence before you can just tie everyone up with discovery forever. You gotta have SOMETHING to start with. To my knowledge, they've shown NO reason to even be entitled to the discovery they've gotten so far. Seems like an over-generous judge. Without producing any evidence here, they should be blocked from further discovery.

Degenerating this discussion into whether it's easy/hard for IBM to produce all the intermediate files gives the SCO team undue traction in the arguement. Seems like IBM should just be responding with "you'll get more discovery when you show exactly what you are looking for and show some evidence that we've actually broken the law to support that search." Without some type of evidence, (lawyer Lionel Hutz on Simpsons: "..but your honor, heresay and conjecture are types of evidence.."), they really should have their requests clipped at the moment they ask.

I don't want to badmouth the judge, everything seems fair, I just see everyone (especially the judge) bending over backwards for SCO, almost helping them build their case and looking for reasons to justify their fishing expedition. That's wrong, they should have had some evidence on their first day in court, or the judge should have tossed it on the spot.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Anyone else with this problem?
Authored by: maco on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 01:01 PM EDT
I love original source material (Livy and Seutonius are much more fun than
modern historians), but for the life of me I cannot get through many of these
SCO documents.

Maybe because it's a beautiful day outside and my wife gave me such a warm smile
this morning and the code I'm working on is quite elegant - maybe because of
these things my mind simply will not swallow SCOX verbifuge, just like my
stomach and nose won't let swallow rancid stew.

In any case, 1) I hope PJ is right in her analysis, because I'm having to trust
her, and 2) I thank her (and many others) with an iron-stomach of a mind who
have taken on the SCOXberish and translated it so that my beautiful day can
remain beautiful and my wife's smile can still linger in my mind - thanks.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 01:16 PM EDT
The problem and burden for IBM is IMHO not producing the intermediate versions
of the files, but the fact that they have to declare in a legaly way that what
is produced are _ALL_ the versions of AIX and Dynix. This is burdensome because
the entirity of a version is not defined by the folder structure but by the file
references made in make files and header files. It is likely for intermediate
versions that those file references will contain errors. All those false
references, can make up a long list of missing files. This results in a review
process to find evidence that these files effectively never existed.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Partial Summary Judgments and CC10 don't need any AIX and DYNIX code
Authored by: JamesKatt on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 01:18 PM EDT
SCO's flailings about AIX and DYNIX intermediate source codes are only
distractions.

IBM has crafted their arguments for Summary Judgments and the CC10 in
such a way that any AIX and DYNIX code is irrelevent. That is the beauty of
their arguments.

Judgment Day is coming soon. The Partial Summary Judgment on the ATT-
IBM contract destroys SCOs arguments about derivatives. CC10 destroys
SCOs arguments about Linux. And Partial Summary Judgment on IBM's
counterclaim that SCO committed copyright violations will end up destroying
SCO's Unix Business - which uses a lot of GPL code.

---
I ANAL

[ Reply to This | # ]

How silly!
Authored by: Vaino Vaher on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 01:19 PM EDT
Since SCO has a wing of its operations that sells operating systems they are
well aware of the limitations of version control systems. They must use them
every day of the year!
In fact, they sell at least two products that themselves contain version control
systems. They are thus a vendor, selling VC software!

In my opinion IBM should bring in SCO's own developers and the people
responsible for the products that contain VC components. Let them explain to the
court how a VC system works! If Sontag can't be bothered to bring some evidence
to the table IBM should hear the testimony of SCO's own experts.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Joan Thomas
Authored by: rgmoore on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 01:38 PM EDT
If the court declines to deny IBM's motion to strike, and I suspect they think that might happen, they ask that the court order the immediate deposition of Joan Thomas, so they can ask her all about CMVC. I am not clear why they can't just depose her anyway, regardless of what happens to this particular motion, but I could be missing something.

I can think of two reasons that they might want court ordered depositions. One is that it could add an extra bit of delay. If they depose Ms. Thomas today, the deposition will be over and it won't provide an extra reason to put off ruling on IBM's motions for partial summary judgment. OTOH, if they wait for the judge to rule on the matter, they can then take as much time as they think they can get away with before taking the deposition and then maybe spin the deposition into another series of motions that will take up yet more time. The other obvious reason is that, IIRC, they're only allowed to take a limited number of depositions, and they don't want to waste one on an issue that only touches discovery rather than triable facts. They may believe that if the court orders the deposition it won't count against their limited number.

---
Behind every sleazy lawyer, there's a sleazy client.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Sontag's Declaration
Authored by: seeRpea on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 01:40 PM EDT
I'm a bit confused about this. Wasn't Mr Sontag presented by SCO to the court as
an expert? Is a party in a lawsuit allowed to present testimony as being that of
an expert and then later on say "well, the person is not a real
expert" ?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Interesting selective quote by Sontag - I wonder if he understood what he was reading
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 02:14 PM EDT
Aside from the admissability of the http://www.cs.queensu.ca./Software-Engineering/blurb/cmvc web page

Compare what SCO quoted, to what the page actually says:

First the SCO version

An IBM employee explained that the Version Control ("VC") function of CMVC "eliminates confusion when looking for a particular source code file belonging to a particular product." (7/12/04 Sontag Decl. Exh. 3 (Email from Adrian Mitu (IBM Canada), Aug. 19, 1993 (located at http://www.cs.queensu.ca./Software-Engineering/blurb/cmvc).)


This is the relevant part of the page that it purports to quote. I've highlighted the bit SCO quote in bold.

http://www.cs.queensu.ca./Software-Engineering/blurb /cmvc 1) Configuration Management (CM)
Software Configuration Management (SCM) is the process of identifying, tracking, and controlling changes to software configuration items (SCI). SCI's in CMVC terminology are called components. A configuration consists of a family of components. CMVC components can represent any objects that need to be managed: software modules, documentation sets, design requirements, object code, etc. Within the family, the components are arranged in a tree-like hierarchical structure that reflects the structure of your organization and the structure of the projects you are working on.

2) Version Control (VC)
Version Control manages all the versions of all the SCI's. Any version of any SCI is available at any time. The mechanism used is forward-delta versioning, that enables version branching with a minimum of storage wasted. Both ASCII and binary files can be stored under CMVC's Version Control mechanism. All of the SCI are available to users from a CMVC server, although their physical location can be distributed. This eliminates confusion when looking for a particular source code file belonging to a particular product, for example.


Now Sontag's read seems to be - it's CMVC - therefore they can track down anything that SCO want easily - because "eliminates confusion when looking for a particular source code file belonging to a particular product"

However if you read the sentence in context, it actually says you can retrieve SCIs ("software configuration items"). And in the paragraph (1) it actually explains you have to set up a sort-of-hierarchical structure of objects, components, configurations, etc. Which rather strongly suggests the tracking and retrieval is based on your defined sort-of-hierarchical structure, rather than any random query that SCO can come up with.

In other words, it seems to me, Sontag's errors here includes:

1) Referencing this document in the first place, re: admissibility etc.

2) Quoting a sentence out of context

3) Misunderstanding what the sentence means in context (because in context it seems to say almost the exact opposite of what he wants it to say)

Quatermass
IANAL IMHO etc

[ Reply to This | # ]

If you have no case.....
Authored by: Latesigner on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 02:18 PM EDT
Create a whole new theory of copyright law.
After all, SCO was paid to make stuff up.

[ Reply to This | # ]

The Litmus Test
Authored by: the_flatlander on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 02:27 PM EDT
IANAL. (So, really, there's no point in reading further, there's nothing you are
likely to learn here.)

Well I, for one, can hardly wait to see how the judge rules on this little
distraction. I think it will serve as the perfect indicator for what the
balance of this fiaSCO is going to look like.

If the judge holds the SCOundrels to the rules, (as I understand them), then
this whole fiaSCO will be over relatively quickly. On the other hand, if the
judge permits the SCOundrels to run an endless game of "Go Fish"(TM),
then this case may never end.

I am really looking forward to next week.

The Flatlander

I'm betting that starting with next Tuesday the SCOundrels are going to bounce,
(like a ping-pong ball in a dyer), from one negative ruling to the next. I'd
avert my eyes from the carnage, *but*, since it's the SCOundrels, I'm planning
on enjoying every minute of it.

[ Reply to This | # ]

A lesson learned by tech but was it learned by the law?
Authored by: Brian S. on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 02:30 PM EDT
"SCO ends by asking the court to keep as much of Sontag's declaration as
possible and throw out only the parts he has no personal knowledge of. That
would be a lot, by IBM's reckoning. And they have come up with a new way to
"DELAY" (my emphasis), I think. If the court declines to deny IBM's
motion to strike, and I suspect they think that might happen, they ask that the
court order the immediate deposition of Joan Thomas, so they can ask her all
about CMVC. I am not clear why they can't just depose her anyway, regardless of
what happens to this particular motion, but I could be missing something."

Just going back to the Netscape/M$ problem which resulted in the antitrust
ruling.

1)Netscape and others screamed loud and clear from the outset of IE that there
was a monopoly related problem.

2)M$ carried on integrating IE with Windoze regardless.

3)The legal system took several years to grind through their procedure and
deliver a verdict.

4)Before the verdict came IE was a monopoly and Netscape had been wiped out.

Conclusion: The legal system was of absolutely no use to Netscape whatsoever, M$
proved that action is much more powerful than lawyers words. Even today the
powers that be are unwilling to use the antitrust ruling to curtail M$
excesses.

Lesson: Why bother with the legal system when you can achieve so much more with
direct action.

SCOG case.

1) SCOG shouts their claim loud and clear, initiates court action but then
proceeds to hinder at every stage.

2) IBM and everyone else continues to impliment Linux at 90 miles per hour.
Another year or two and it will dominate corporate servers if not the desktop.

3)How long will the court take to reach a decision?

4) Will That decision be relevent when it is made?

My theory: The court system as it stands is far to slow to arbitrate in tech
matters. Unless this court shows an inclination to rule in the near future it
will be as irrelevent as was the M$ antitrust ruling to the facts on the ground
and real life. The court in Salt Lake has no real power in the world, only in
the US. Given another year or two does anyone think that a ruling in Salt Lake
will slow up Sony, the Chinese Government, the EU, IBM and a hundred other
bodies just as powerful from continueing to go with Linux? Even if the American
government took sides with SCOG they couldn't negotiate this through with the
rest of the world. (Contrary to some I don't believe the American government is
on the side of SCOG or M$, check out what they buy.)

Lesson: Why bother with the law in frontline tech. By the time the lawyers have
made up their mind it's too late. Their ruling is "moot".

As an aside it doesn't matter what the legal system says about P2P or DCMA and
copying, tech and its users will decide what happens on the ground. The legal
system can only seek to control the consequences, they're too slow to control
the events.

Brian S.

[ Reply to This | # ]

IBM Version Control Systems
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 03:07 PM EDT

I used to work for IBM and have used CMVC. Before CMVC they had a system that was called Orbit (if I remember correctly). I don't know for certain, but it wouldn't surprise me if the versions that SCO is requesting spans multiple versions of CMVC and quite possibly older version control systems as well. The backing databases for these are quite possibly different meaning you can't use the current CMVC application to access them. There really isn't much justification for moving all old software to the newest system.

It sounds like Sontag is assuming that all IBM software for all time is available from the newest CMVC application. This is highly unlikely. In fact it's quite possible that the older databases for these products no longer exist instead, they probably have snapshots of the source somewhere. Version control systems are only really useful for current or near current software. The databases can take up lots of space so It's not uncommon to ditch them after a few years in favor of tested release snapshots.

I would guess my opinions are a bit more valid than Sontag's given that I've actually used CMVC. I don't know exactly what IBM would have to go through to comply with the discovery motion should it pass the court, but conventional wisdom tells me it's probably going to be a bitch.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 04:20 PM EDT
I can see why Microsoft might want to fund something like this methods and concepts attempted land grab, even if I can't approve. If SCO can place methods and concepts in software soundly and utterly under copyright law, Microsoft can control and kill off anything in GNU/Linux that acts like their software, and even more effective, SCO can block anything that acts like UNIX, and then what's left of GNU/Linux? All software tends to do the same tasks.

I may be barking up a wrong tree here, but didn't Apple try to take on Microsoft many years ago over Windows "look and feel", and didn't Apple lose out?

Howard

[ Reply to This | # ]

Strong recommendation
Authored by: Tomas on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 04:46 PM EDT
In reading through the comments in this thread I see many comments posted well after the below referenced comment that totally ignore or contradict it.

I suspect those commentors did not read the referenced post.

The post contains extracts from IBM source material on their internal use of their CMVC for AIX. An example is:

...The automated system that monitors CMVC usage showed a total average of more than 1.5 million CMVC transactions per day against the big CMVC family in April 1994. This family is used to maintain and develop the AIX operating system. This means that the server processes about 70,000 transactions per hour, and 20 CMVC transactions per second around the clock.
With that sort of volume a decade ago in the "family" of CMVC servers dealing with AIX, imagine the number of potential images of each of the over half million files that make up AIX.

Would anyone like to again say how easy it would be to show every file image over the last 20 years?

Please read this post.

Thank you

---
Tom
Engineer (ret.)
We miss you, Moogy. Peace.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: blacklight on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 05:57 PM EDT
I very much doubt that Chris Sontag's so-called expertise is going to stand up
to a thorough cross-examination: he is nothing more than a lousy BA in IT who
got into management so that he could get paid lotsa moola for taking credit for
other people's work. I've worked with a couple of managers of his type over the
years, and it is only out of pure politeness that if I didn't call them
two-legged garbage cans in front of the staff.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Methods and concepts
Authored by: AJWM on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 06:20 PM EDT
If SCO can place methods and concepts in software soundly and utterly under copyright law, Microsoft can control and kill off anything in GNU/Linux that acts like their software,

Contrarily, under that theory, anything that appears in Microsoft software that looks like a method or concept that orginated in GNU/Linux (or any other GPL'd software) would render Microsoft liable to charges of copyright infringement defensible only by using the GPL.

Microsoft -- and SCO -- had better think long and hard about whether that is what they really want.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: blacklight on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 06:23 PM EDT
I don't know how far SCOG is going to court ranting about copying of
"methods and sequences" since: (1) copyrights law is pretty strict
about protecting specific expressions of ideas and provides no protection for
the ideas themselves. In particular, copyrights law makes no explicit provision
for "methods and sequences"; (2) more fundamentally, SCOG has to prove
that copying to place and thus far is sheer out of luck; (3) even more
fundamentally, it is not even clear that SCOG owns any relevant copyrights at
all that it can claim were violated.

At some point, the court needs to slam down the brakes on SCOG''s discovery
demands, in particular given SCOG's continued failure to comply with two
consecutive orders regarding discovery. If the court is not willing to take at
face value IBM's assertion that SCOG's discovery request is unduly burdensome,
then the court should appoint an independent expert in version control to visit
Joan Thomas's facilities, and report back to the court. That should end SCOG's
attempted fishing expedition, before it even gets in gear.

The fact is, Chris Sontag is not an expert on CMVC and in particular the
differences between the various versions of CMVC, and even more importantly, he
is not familiar with IBM's version control procedures. The fact that he took
credit for other people's work for eighteen years and make a lot of money at it
does not make him an expert at anything, except taking credit for other people's
work and making a lot of money at it. So I fail to see why this charlatan should
be considered more knowledgeable about both CMVC and IBM's version control
procedures than Joan Thomas who has directly supervised the system for two
years.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: blacklight on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 06:44 PM EDT
I believe that if SCOG were to depose Joan Thomas, SCOG's Broadway production
about how the CMVC system ought to work ends right here and right now, and a
chunk of their rigged up argument that IBM is dealing in bad faith breaks off.
Plus, SCOG is down to 999 authorized deponents out of 1000.

If SCOG were really to believe that Joan Thomas's declaration was baloney, the
easiest course for SCOG would have been to depose her, then file a complaint
renewing their demand for discovery with the court using her deposition as
supporting evidence. The failure of SCOG to depose Joan Thomas right away leads
me to conclude that once again, SCOG is full of hot air.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Layman's description of SCM
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 08:27 PM EDT
One thing I find curious in most of the explainaintions of the difficulty
producing all versions of code for AIX is the characterisation that it would be
difficult to produce non-labeled versions.

I think this is a red herring. If you think of a SCM repository as a collection
of versioned elements that are combined together to create a composite element -
say AIX. I could agree with the characterisation that you could not re-produce
an intermediate version of AIX between two releases. I don't see this as what
SCO is asking for. They want to see all the versions of all the elements that
ever went into a release.

In a modern (CMVC included) SCM system, this can be obtained by getting a
listing of all the elements that went into all the releases (presumably this
would be all elements that have a released version tag). Then extracting all
versions of each of these elements.


Hypothetical example:

Element Date Version Release
element.h 1/1/80 1.0 000
element.h 1/2/80 1.1
element.h 1/2/94 1.1.1
element.h 1/3/94 1.1.2 000.001
element.h 1/3/80 1.2 001
element.h 1/4/94 1.3

There are three releases (000, 000.001, and 001). The dates are shown to
indicate that 000.001 was a patch release to fix some problem in a previous
release that was found in later development (spider webbing of derrivation
tree).

As CMVC has all the meta-data in a relational database, I would assume the
following steps would be trivial.

1. find all elements with a release version label.
(in this case "element.h").
2. find all versions of all elements.
(in this case six versions of "element.h")
3. extract elements and meta-data for each version.

Now let's say that version 000 has 10 elements and version 001 had 12 elements
and three elemnents were dropped between versions. Step 1 would identify 15
elements. Step 2 would identify all the versions of the 15 elments. Step 3
would extract the entire history of each of the 15 elements (all versions
without regard to release labeling).

[ Reply to This | # ]

reminds me to this day of one of PJs first comments going way back
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 09:17 PM EDT
I remember this comment, and it wasn't just from PJ, but also others, in fact,
it was stated by people in the US AG office, etc, comment was:

IBM's legal documents: how to properly write a legal document
SCO's legal documents: how NOT to write a legal document

hope this made somebody's day, because it still holds true..
sheesh you think SCO would learn by now... but then you have to remember the
credo of the pump and dump scheme...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Do you think it’s as simple as?
Authored by: Viv on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 10:15 PM EDT
Do you think it’s as simple as Microsoft is paying for the last Unix supplier to
destroy it’s self and give IBM a poke in the eye at the same time?

It could be? How much did it cost to invest in the SCO litigation? Removing SCO
as a competitor means all the customers have to buy new systems, some of them at
least will buy MS products.

What’s the break even point I wonder? The better SCO do at muddying the waters
and spending IBM’s money the better for MS.

I don’t think it’s an outright attack at Linux its more of a caught in the
crossfire situation, the real target is to remove Unix as a credible alternative
operating system.

The bottom line probably looks like a bargain to someone!

Viv

IANAL just tall dark and handsome

---
Is it me or what!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Two things I don't understand
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 10:34 PM EDT
1) Does the code even matter? We go around and around and around and around,
about the code. But is the code even at issue? IBM is not disputing the code,
never has. What is at issue here is: "does IBM have the right to put IBM's
own code into Linux."

2) Why doesn't the court just say: "okay scox, you say need to see more ibm
code. Okay, *maybe* this court will order ibm to give you more code. But *FIRST*
before we go one step further, first this court must insist that you provide
what you should have had 18 months ago. First, scox, you must prove that you
have *SOMETHING* some tiny kernel of evidence that you have any basis for a case
what-so-ever. Ibm, and the courts have spent millions of dollars, and an 18
months of our time, based on nothing but your word. We need something more,
something real. Give this court *something* and *then* we'll see about more
discovery.

Why not?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Delay may not be the reason for the lack of deposition
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 06 2004 @ 10:39 PM EDT
And they have come up with a new way to delay, I think. If the court declines to deny IBM's motion to strike, and I suspect they think that might happen, they ask that the court order the immediate deposition of Joan Thomas, so they can ask her all about CMVC. I am not clear why they can't just depose her anyway, regardless of what happens to this particular motion, but I could be missing something.

Whereas there is delay as a nice side effect, I suspect the reason is much simpler. TSG has occasionally described the number of permitted depositions as relatively limtited. I don't think they want to waste one on this motion if they can defeat the motion in other ways. After all, a deposition not used now may turn up a necessary gem or fact later.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT: Update on timeline anybody?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 02:12 AM EDT
Following motions (not counting 2 PSJs where SCO still have some time to
respond) are pending in IBM. any ideas on the due dates for the next memo are
due:

1. SCO's Exparte Motion for leave to file supplemental memo on discovery - SCO
reply awaited

2. IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag Decl 7/12/04 - IBM reply awaited

3. IBM's Motion to strike SCO materials submitted in response to IBM PSJ CC 10 -
IBM reply expected


Thanks in advance.

Alternatively if you have any new filings ,please post a link

Quatermass
IANAL IMHO etc


[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO will win, IBM will loose: here is why:
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 04:01 AM EDT
Because they do not own the cow(de).

------------------------------------------------------
I said, "there was a society of men among us, bred up from their youth in
the art of proving, by words multiplied for the purpose, that white is black,
and black is white, according as they are paid. To this society all the rest of
the people are slaves. For example, if my neighbour has a mind to my cow, he
has a lawyer to prove that he ought to have my cow from me. I must then hire
another to defend my right, it being against all rules of law that any man
should be allowed to speak for himself. Now, in this case, I, who am the right
owner, lie under two great disadvantages:
first, my lawyer, being practised almost from his cradle in defending falsehood,
is quite out of his element when he would be an advocate for justice, which is
an unnatural office he always attempts with great awkwardness, if not with
ill-will. The second disadvantage is, that my lawyer must proceed with great
caution, or else he will be reprimanded by the judges, and abhorred by his
brethren, as one that would lessen the practice of the law. And therefore I
have but two methods to preserve my cow. The first is, to gain over my
adversary's lawyer with a double fee, who will then betray his client by
insinuating that he hath justice on his side. The second way is for my lawyer to
make my cause appear as unjust as he can, by allowing the cow to belong to my
adversary: and this, if it be skilfully done, will certainly bespeak the favour
of the bench. Now your honour is to know, that these judges are persons
appointed to decide all controversies of property, as well as for the trial of
criminals, and picked out from the most dexterous lawyers, who are grown old or
lazy; and having been biassed all their lives against truth and equity, lie
under such a fatal necessity of favouring fraud, perjury, and oppression, that I
have known some of them refuse a large bribe from the side where justice lay,
rather than injure the faculty, by doing any thing unbecoming their nature or
their office.

"It is a maxim among these lawyers that whatever has been done before, may
legally be done again: and therefore they take special care to record all the
decisions formerly made against common justice, and the general reason of
mankind. These, under the name of precedents, they produce as authorities to
justify the most iniquitous opinions; and the judges never fail of directing
accordingly.

"In pleading, they studiously avoid entering into the merits of the cause;
but are loud, violent, and tedious, in dwelling upon all circumstances which are
not to the purpose. For instance, in the case already mentioned; they never
desire to know what claim or title my adversary has to my cow; but whether the
said cow were red or black; her horns long or short; whether the field I graze
her in be round or square; whether she was milked at home or abroad; what
diseases she is subject to, and the like; after which they consult precedents,
adjourn the cause from time to time, and in ten, twenty, or thirty years, come
to an issue.

"It is likewise to be observed, that this society has a peculiar cant and
jargon of their own, that no other mortal can understand, and wherein all their
laws are written, which they take special care to multiply; whereby they have
wholly confounded the very essence of truth and falsehood, of right and wrong;
so that it will take thirty years to decide, whether the field left me by my
ancestors for six generations belongs to me, or to a stranger three hundred
miles off.

"In the trial of persons accused for crimes against the state, the method
is much more short and commendable: the judge first sends to sound the
disposition of those in power, after which he can easily hang or save a
criminal, strictly preserving all due forms of law."

Here my master interposing, said, "it was a pity, that creatures endowed
with such prodigious abilities of mind, as these lawyers, by the description I
gave of them, must certainly be, were not rather encouraged to be instructors of
others in wisdom and knowledge." In answer to which I assured his honour,
"that in all points out of their own trade, they were usually the most
ignorant and stupid generation among us, the most despicable in common
conversation, avowed enemies to all knowledge and learning, and equally disposed
to pervert the general reason of mankind in every other subject of discourse as
in that of their own profession."
------------------------------------------------------

Gulliver's Travels, by Jonathan Swift, Part IV, Chapter V

oliv.

[ Reply to This | # ]

before posting rebuttals CHECK if SCOG said what you think
Authored by: Paul Shirley on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 04:53 AM EDT
I'm getting a little bit tired of reading comments about how hard/impossible it is to retrieve working intermediate versions of AIX. Well, yes, that's somewhere between hard and impossible. But SCOG didn't ask for that!

They want all intermediate versions of all files in AIX, compilable or not, a time consuming job even after deciding which files and revisions properly should be included but absolutely not impossible.

Lets leave strawman arguments to SCOG in future.

[ Reply to This | # ]

What's wrong with Linux in the non comercial space?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 06:41 AM EDT
It would be for the best, I think. No more problems with IP. And if someone
wanted, they can get it. It they don't, stick with what ever they want, Windows,
Apple etc.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Why IBM cannot fulfill SCO's request
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 07:27 AM EDT
The answer is fairly simple - revision control system complexitites aside.

IBM have shown throughout this case, that when their legal team let them do
something - they make sure that the t's are crossed, and the i's are dotted.

IBM have said that they cannot pull out the exact information SCO are asking for
- but SCO are arguing that IBM won't pull out *some* information, and SCO are
basing their argument on the complexity of pulling out *some* information.

Getting *some* of the information out is what most people are arguing about -
can CVS do this, can RCS do that... I don't think the IBM legal team are letting
IBM consider fulfilling a requirement for *some* of the files - they are looking
at the question as :

can we stand up in court and tell the judge that we have *all* the information
that SCO wanted? Will SCO find holes in the information we give them ( and then
claim that it was deliberate ).


If we can't stand up and honestly say that we have fulfilled the request - then
what will it take to make sure that we have done it.. and that's where IBM are
stuck... while it might take only a couple of days to write the scripts to scan
the entire archive and pull all the releases, and then for each release identify
each file that is delivered, and then identify those under revision control, and
then select the full history for each of those individual files. The question
remains *is this all of the information that we would have been ordered to
deliver* ?

What would be required to be *sure* of that - and I suspect that this is where
the differences in quality of the SCO and IBM legal teams becomes clear ... IBM
wont stand over it unless it's right - SCO will be happy with 'that will do for
the moment'...

IBM are saying that *we can pull the releases* - that's what its designed for -
that is what we gave over already.
IBM are saying that *we can pull the rest* - but if you want us to stand over it
and say that it is *everything*, documentation, developer release notes etc ..
then we have a huge burden of work to pull out the stuff and then check and
double check that it's the correct stuff.

If you just want us to make a best effort selection of stuff, then you should
have an idea of what you are looking for ( or else you are planning on coming
back asking for more, and more , and more ) - so if you know what you want -
tell us - otherwise we're going to be searching for ever.

So arguments about what you can pull from revision control ( and the relative
difficulties ) are irrelevant to the problem at hand.

generating bits is easy - making sense of them takes the work.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Musings on Delays...
Authored by: tredman on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 03:59 PM EDT
<soapbox>
It struck me the other day that there could be another theory as to why this
case is moving along so slowly, and it all boils down to politics.

Right now, we've got a legal proceeding moving along really at the speed that it
ought to. Any time you hear about a case like this, any legal analyst already
projects the end of the skirmish out to several years. How does that explain
other cases that seem to race along at breakneck speeds and resolve in no time?
One word: politics.

Whether we like to admit it or not, this is not a very high profile case. Sure,
everybody in F/OSS knows what's going on, and so do many of the online analysts,
but when it boils down to it, this just isn't the kind of spectacle that you're
going to see show up on the evening news. There's no sex appeal to it for Joe
or Sue Citizen. There's also no motivation for Washington to get involved in it
because the subject of Linux and Open Source is not on any presidential or
congressional bullet point list of issues.

What does this mean for the case? It means that there is no senator,
congressman or secretary of anything being quoted in the press on page one, or
even page five or six for that matter. There's no pressure to hurry this along
in the name of judicial expediency. And without the bigwigs touting this as the
judgement of the year/decade/millenium, the press isn't going to give it top
billing. OJ? Swift judicial process, regardless of your views on the outcome.
Martha Stewart left skid marks through the courtroom as quickly as that went.
Enron and Worldcom were models of brevity in comparison to SCO v. IBM. All
because they shook the political world, either on a regional or national level,
and got the spot light from big media.

However, don't get me wrong. The last thing we need is to have some District
heavyweight come in and rush things along. Judge Kimball is doing his best to
make sure that the appeals court gets a good, hearty belly laugh if SCO were to
decide to bring the case to them. Sure it's going to be a marathon, but if you
want a definitive, resounding statement to be made across the legal, commercial
and technological landscape, it's probably best to let this pig reach a critical
mass. After all, OJ went free, Martha only got six months, and the
Enron/Worldcom fiasco made little difference to the little guys and gals that
lost their life savings.
</soapbox>

Let the flamings begin...

Tim

[ Reply to This | # ]

Okay Judge - Sontag's your expert, errr...
Authored by: tangomike on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 03:59 PM EDT
"From 1996 until 2000, as CTO of a company that he co-founded, Mr. Sontag
had overall responsibility for software development, technical strategy,
intellectual property and information systems as well as general executive
management, and he led the evaluation and selection process of the source
control and source management system that was used by the development
team."

So Mr. Sontag is an expert because he appointed himself CTO of his company. The
only positive part of this is that it actually mentions that he was
self-appointed. Strangely, he isn't at that company any more, unless he's
moonlighting.

I guess we could cut them some slack because they only put him up as an expert
" If the Court Concludes That an Expert Opinion Is Required...".
Otherwise he's (pick one or more of the following):

a) testifying from personal knowledge; or

b) simply reflecting a permissable summary; or

c) not needed by SCO to prevail; or

d) the court is stupid; there's no requirement for an expert ("None of
these observations—rudimentary to anyone with a background in the
industry—remotely requires "expert" knowledge.)


---
The SCO Group - Auto-retro-phrenology in action!

[ Reply to This | # ]

So can we say the concensus is that SCOG & its lawyers
Authored by: skidrash on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 06:16 PM EDT
are following Ryan Tibbits' playbook TO THE LETTER?

Get as much discovery as you can, any way you can. Looking desperate to get
more discovery, bending the rules, lying, obfuscating, BEGGING is all to the
good, if it gets you more discovery.

All in hopes of finding "damaging" quotes.

Threaten to take any and all "damaging" quotations you find to a jury
in an attempt to get a settlement, NOT ON THE ISSUES of the case but on any
"damaging" information uncovered in discovery.

[ Reply to This | # ]

You too can be an "expert"!
Authored by: Jaywalk on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 06:36 PM EDT
Yes, just like our friend Chris, you can read the book that makes him SCO's expert on all things CMVC, just pick up this book for $42 (or $33 used) from Amazon. Then you too can act like you know what you're talking about and are qualified to contradict an expert who spends her life doing this stuff. Better yet, you can compare the book with what Sontag actually thinks he's read and determine for yourself if the man's actually literate.

---
===== Murphy's Law is recursive. =====

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sorry if this has been brought up before...
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 07:24 PM EDT

... but I just found Judge Kimball's profile. It has some interesting advice from both Kimball and his clerks:

  • Don't try to stretch your position. If you have a weakness, admit to the weakness, and try to persuade the Judge that you should win anyway.
  • Brevity is appreciated and highly effective as a tool of advocacy. This applies both in briefs and oral arguments.
  • If you have a bad argument, leave it out of your brief and your oral argument. Making bad arguments hurts your credibility with the Court.
  • Understand the strengths of your opponent's arguments and address them instead of blindly arguing one position and disregarding opposing arguments and case law.

The whole thing is here.

I'd wager this would be good advice before any judge.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's Memo in Opposition to IBM's Motion to Strike Sontag's Declaration - as text
Authored by: blacklight on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 07:50 PM EDT
I remember back in my days at Columbia College when I would would write verbatim
a particularly pithy paragraph from an author not just once but several times,
and cogitate each time to the point of insanity as to the range of meanings that
author was trying to get to. I would of course write my paper in my own words
and if those words were at times really lame, they were unquestionably,
unfortunately and humiliatingly mine - all mine. However, if SCOG had chanced to
read my notes, I am sure that would have argued that I had engaged in
non-literal copying of that author's paragraph.

I eventually graduated from Columbia College, got myself an MS in Chemical
Engineering from Columbia shortly thereafer and developed an aversion to liberal
arts that lasted twenty years.

[ Reply to This | # ]

How Much Data Is SCOG Asking For?
Authored by: EdM on Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 08:21 PM EDT
After reading various comments about how easy or hard it is
to pull every revision out of a CM system, I thought I'd try
an experiment. I already had some code that would scrounge
through an RCS tree, do an 'rlog' on each file to pull out the
revision history, then check out each file. A quick vi session later, I had
something that would count files, revisions, and
total bytes.

I also have a reasonable code sample; a Unix-like operating system that's been
developed continuously for 15 years. Running my program on a single subdirectory
gave me the following:

202 files, 9566 revisions and 205 megabytes of output.

The current versions of those 202 files add up to about
2 megabytes of code. It also took about 10 minutes on a
reasonably spritely server. Doing that for something the
size of AIX is going to fill a few DVDs and put a substantial load on the
production VC servers.

---
Just another old-time programmer.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Shifting sands of SCOX
Authored by: jccooper on Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 01:58 AM EDT
SCOX is now asking for something different.

Used to be (if memory serves) that they wanted "all intermediate versions
of AIX", which is plainly crazy if taken literally.

(One approach to retrieving all intermediate versions would be to extract a
version for every conceivable timestamp, and to throw out all the exact
duplicates. Obviously this would take a while. Slightly more clever schemes can
be devised, but they would still all take forever, and might not account for
moved/deleted files/modules/programs/whatever.)

A simple product with ten files of ten changes each would have 100 different
versions, at least if the system isn't transactional. And that's if you restrict
your meaning to checked-in revisions: taken to the logical extent, it really
means that every time a developer compiles or possibly even saves changes to
disk a new version is created, and almost all of those are irretrievably lost or
well buried on hundreds of workstations in many different locales.

Presumably the SCOX lawyers have now been told that their request is
unrealistic; they are now asking for something more realistic, but completely
different: a copy of the version control system. Plainly this is a much more
reasonable task (and would be much more useful to SCOX than a giant pile of
minutely different versions on a crate full of CDs), although considering the
nature of IBM and AIX, I would imagine that this is still plenty of work to get
together.

SCOX's trademark shifting legal theories have more or less rendered the entire
exercise of the version extraction burden to be pointless, although IBM may
still contend that providing SCOX with a working copy of their VC database(s),
presumably edited to remove non-related content, is an extremely burdensome task
(which it probably is).

But SCOX still must convince the court that they should be able to do discovery
on in-development code. And that's a pretty long row to hoe, since copyright law
does not seem to be on their side, and since this tactic was shot down earlier
in discovery.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Did you say CMVC != documentation
Authored by: rand on Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 08:46 PM EDT
I decided to grab a copy of DYSC and take a long look, since the court exhibit is, shall we say, somewhat condensed. I noticed in http://sco.tuxrocks.com/Docs/IBM/IBM-266-B.pdf, on the second page
Take Note! Before using this information and the product it supports, be sure to read the general information under Special Notices on page xv.
but there is no page xv. It's not clear why it's missing (deliberate, perhaps?) but here is the first paragraph (emphasis added):
Special Notices

This publication is intended to help developers, project managers, system administrators, and software configuration administrators set up, configure, customize, and use IBM CMVC for their application developement. The information in this publication is not intended as the specification of any programming interfaces that are provided by Configuration Management and Version Control/6000. See the PUBLICATIONS section of the IBM Programming Announcement for IBM Configuration Management and Version Control for more information about what publications are considered to be product documentation.

That couldn't be any clearer. This publication should not be considered product documentaion.

---
Eat a toad for breakfast -- it makes the rest of the day seem so much easier (Chinese (I'm told) proverb) (IANAL and so forth and so on)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Groklaw © Copyright 2003-2013 Pamela Jones.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners.
Comments are owned by the individual posters.

PJ's articles are licensed under a Creative Commons License. ( Details )