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| Sandy Gupta Shows Up - Working at Microsoft - Updated |
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Monday, May 05 2008 @ 11:40 AM EDT
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Guess where Sandeep Gupta landed after he left SCO? If I put a blindfold on you and told you to point on the map, you'd still guess Microsoft, wouldn't you? And you'd be right. From January, that is where he found a soft landing, as Director, Technical Competitive Strategy of the Server & Tools Division. The company that got him the gig say they are simply thrilled to have placed him there:"Sandy Gupta is the kind of technology expert that Microsoft prides itself on having inside the company. We could not be more pleased with Sandy coming to Redmond,” said Jim Krouskop Partner, Laurel Group. I think that means they maybe didn't read his affidavits/declarations in the SCO mess, specifically in SCO v. IBM. Or that Microsoft did, for you cynics out there. Would you like to see the Laurel Group's press release about this placement? Here you go, and for history's sake, I'll reproduce the meat of it here also.
Gupta was the guy that listed "infringing" code, like ELF, hardy har, and went along with the "methods and concepts" theory. You may recall Dr. Randall Davis of MIT's second Declaration, debunking Gupta's allegations. Dr. Davis looked at all the code Sandeep Gupta listed as allegedly infringing, and this world-famous expert concluded:
Despite an extensive review, I could find no source code in any of the IBM Code that incorporates any portion of the source code contained in the Unix System V Code or is in any other manner similar to such source code. Accordingly, the IBM Code cannot be said, in my opinion, to be a modification or a derivative work based on Unix System V Code. And IBM wrote this about his work, in a Memorandum in Support of its Motion to Strike Materials Submitted by SCO in Opposition to IBM's Cross-Motion for Partial Summary Judgment: "For example, Mr. Gupta opines that 'Linux RCU is substantially similar to UNIX RCU'. (Gupta Decl. ¶ 10.) Mr. Gupta's entire analysis, however, is focused on unprotectable ideas that must be filtered during any assessment of 'substantial similarity'. See Gates Rubber, 9 F.3d at 836 ('One of the fundamental tenets of copyright law is that protection extends only to the author's original expression and not to the ideas embodied in that expression.'). Mr. Gupta himself describes the allegedly similar material he identifies in his declaration as 'routine[s]' (¶¶ 3, 5, 10) and 'methods' (¶¶ 6, 7) that 'perform the same five acts' (¶ 11). This material is plainly unprotectable. See Gates Rubber, 9 F.3d at 836-37 (noting that 'the main purpose or function of a program will always be an unprotectable idea' and that 'the expression adopted by the programmer is the copyrightable element in a computer program . . . the actual processes or methods embodied in the program are not'). Moreover, when the actual expression--i.e., the code--in what Mr. Gupta calls 'Linux RCU' and 'UNIX RCU' is compared side-by-side, as in Mr. Gupta's own Exhibit A (in columns 1 and 4), even the untrained reviewer can determine that they are completely different and not even close to being 'similar'." This was back in 2004. They may think we all forgot, but Groklaw never forgets. And if I need to remind you, the SCO v. IBM case is yet to be tried. So Microsoft has hired Gupta midstream. Here's what another famous computer expert, Brian W. Kernighan, said after reviewing Gupta's work: Furthermore, in places, Mr. Gupta's conclusions of similarity depend on his selecting isolated lines of code from disparate places and putting them together as if contiguous blocks of code were involved (which they are not) and important differences did not exist (which they do). So. You may draw your own conclusions as to why he is being rewarded with a plum position at Microsoft after a performance so stunningly rebutted. Mine is that he knows too much and that he fits in perfectly.
Update: Bert Young has now surfaced also. Here he is, CFO at Benefitfocus in Charleston, SC, which provides benefits management for companies: Bert Young leads Benefitfocus' accounting and finance strategies and activities. A seasoned executive with over 27 years of finance experience, Young has shown the ability to manage rapid growth. Prior to joining Benefitfocus, Young served as Chief Financial Officer of the SCO Group, the owner of the Unix operating system. He also held the CFO position at LANDesk Software, Talk2 Technology and Whittman-Hart Inc. Throughout his career, Young has demonstrated a talent for directing complex financial transactions and the ability to leverage complex technology.
Young earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Accounting from Utah State University. They forgot to add his stints at Waste Management and marchFIRST. Perhaps he didn't want to list two companies that went bankrupt on his resume, or people might start to wonder about that sentence regarding managing rapid growth. It's true, as far as it goes, I guess, in that SCO went up for a bit, as did marchFIRST, but it leaves out the crash afterward. My point is just this: if you compare this bio with the one SCO provided, and earlier ones, he doesn't just copy and paste them, the way most of us do. And he remains a "true believer," I see. "The owner of the UNIX operating system." And the SCOfolk dare to talk about Linux zealots.
Here's the Laurel Group's press release:
*************************
Laurel Group Secures Technology Veteran for Microsoft
January 07, 2008 | Seattle
The Laurel Group, the leading executive search and human capital firm in the Pacific Northwest, today announced the appointment of Sandy Gupta as Director, Technical Competitive Strategy of the Server & Tools Division at Microsoft. Jim Krouskop, Partner at the Laurel Group led the search and completed the assignment in only 73 days.
Gupta will lead technical analysis and oversee competitive positioning for Microsoft’s Server & Tool Division. Microsoft develops creative solutions to business problems, including the most widely used operating system and productivity software products in the world.
Prior to taking the post at Microsoft, Gupta was the Chief Technology Officer and President of the SCO Group where he oversaw and managed SCO's key technology product deliverables for IT infrastructure and SCO Mobile Server. Prior to that, he held a number of senior positions, including VP of SCO Engineering and Senior Director of UNIX Engineering while working for the SCO Murray Hill office in New Jersey.
“The people at Microsoft make the company the premier technology organization in the world. Sandy Gupta is the kind of technology expert that Microsoft prides itself on having inside the company. We could not be more pleased with Sandy coming to Redmond,” said Jim Krouskop Partner, Laurel Group.
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| Authored by: lordshipmayhem on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 11:44 AM EDT |
| Please state the nature of the error in the Title. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: lordshipmayhem on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 11:45 AM EDT |
| Please make all links clickable!! [ Reply to This | # ]
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- Hat-trick!! - Authored by: lordshipmayhem on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 11:48 AM EDT
- Cuba lifts ban on home computers - Authored by: tiger99 on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 02:01 PM EDT
- How Google’s Checkbook Stymied Microsoft - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 03:06 PM EDT
- Kimball court decision - guess only please ;) - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 03:27 PM EDT
- media less clueless now about SCO v Novell - Authored by: nsomos on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 05:38 PM EDT
- Corecodec apologises for wrongful Google DMCA takedown. - Authored by: Ed L. on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 05:52 PM EDT
- Microsoft's war against Linux - 'Gets the Facts Wrong' - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 10:42 PM EDT
- Google Accuses Verizon of Planning to Dodge 700 MHz Open Access Rules - Authored by: SpaceLifeForm on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 01:42 AM EDT
- Novel use for supoenas - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 07:18 AM EDT
- Quote du Jour. - Authored by: Ian Al on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 08:47 AM EDT
- PJ was right about Marbux - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 10:52 AM EDT
- No - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 12:13 PM EDT
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| Authored by: lordshipmayhem on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 11:47 AM EDT |
| Please state in the title which News Pick you are discussing. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: lordshipmayhem on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 11:51 AM EDT |
Well, fancy that. I'd have never predicted that.
I would have assumed that Microsoft would have used an intermediary organization
to reward its favourite FUDsters.[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: robobright on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:08 PM EDT |
| He has a history of suing his employers. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:10 PM EDT |
Let's hope that Mr. Gupta can contribute to Microsoft's future in the same way
he did to SCO's. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: complex_number on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:15 PM EDT |
| He said,
Furthermore, in places, Mr. Gupta's conclusions of similarity
depend on his selecting isolated lines of code from disparate places and putting
them together as if contiguous blocks of code were involved (which they are not)
and important differences did not exist (which they do).
This ( AFAIK,
IMHO etc) describes the way his new employers put code together :-)
So, I
guess he has found his natural home.
I expect he will now try to expunge his
time at SCO from his CV ASAP. But we here on Groklaw have long,long memories
don't we?
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:18 PM EDT |
Now Gupta can do his kind of damage at - or should I say "to" -
Microsoft. Yet another lackluster loser moves to Redmond. I say "good
riddance to bad rubbish".
At least we know he won't do anything "innovative" anymore.[ Reply to This | # ]
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- This is GREAT news - Authored by: fxbushman on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:32 PM EDT
- This is GREAT news - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:38 PM EDT
- where? - Authored by: grouch on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:23 PM EDT
- where? - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 03:32 PM EDT
- where? - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 03:57 PM EDT
- where? - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 04:12 PM EDT
- Mark Russinovich is another (n/t) - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 07:29 PM EDT
- where? - Authored by: Minsk on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 08:02 PM EDT
- where? - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 09:14 PM EDT
- The beginning of the end of MS? - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 02:07 PM EDT
- just reward ... - Authored by: Latesigner on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 03:13 PM EDT
- OT: 'rubbish' troubling - Authored by: grouch on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 05:47 PM EDT
- This is GREAT news - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 05:40 PM EDT
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:20 PM EDT |
'"The people at Microsoft make the company the premier technology
organization in the world. Sandy Gupta is the kind of technology expert that
Microsoft prides itself on having inside the company. We could not be more
pleased with Sandy coming to Redmond,” said Jim Krouskop Partner, Laurel
Group.'
Could this kind of employee explain vista?
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: belzecue on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:28 PM EDT |
Just wondering... Why would Gupta need to go through the HR placement firm if he
was a shoe-in for a job at MS? And why would it take over 2 months to clinch
it? I can't see that MS was headhunting him deliberately, unless there is more
to the story.[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:34 PM EDT |
Man, you guys are harsh!
The guy gets a job with Microsoft, that doesn't seem like a bad thing, putting
food on the table and all.
I'm not sure I would put him in a position to make legal-type decisions. I have
this feeling he was sent on a mission to find similarities between Linux and
SCO-stuff, and he accomplished that mission, maybe a little overagressively.
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:39 PM EDT |
If SCO stops paying the guy, what would you have him do ? Force him onto Social
Security for the rest of his life, or allow him to seek employment with another
business ?
It might be questionable if he was taken on by a government organisation, with
public funds.
But so long as Microsoft have cash, they should be allowed to employ whoever
they please.[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: stats_for_all on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:49 PM EDT |
| Bert Young has
been hired at a Charlestown, South Carolina company, BenefitFocus. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 12:51 PM EDT |
| The message from Microsoft is Fear not! We take care of our people. If you
are a good and loyal servant you will be rewarded. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: cjk fossman on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:03 PM EDT |
Has Microsoft unwittingly provided food for the Nazgul, in the event they seek a
post-trial reckoning?[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:04 PM EDT |
To be honest, I wouldn't blame Gupta for the declarations he made for his
then
employer. Obviously everything was written in the most positive light
for his
employer, the conclusions he was drawing were plainly wrong (but
that's why the
other side has lawyers and experts, to pick up these mistakes
and tell the
judge about them), but it was nothing that I couldn't have written
with a
reasonably good conscience, not with IBM's lawyers on the other side.
Interestingly, many software developers would consider two different
codes
that implement the same basic steps, but expressed in different ways, as
identical, because for software to work properly, it is the ideas that count,
and the way how it is expressed doesn't matter much. Copyright law sees it
exactly the other way round. [ Reply to This | # ]
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- Gupta's declaration - Authored by: tiger99 on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:16 PM EDT
- Gupta's declaration - Authored by: bb5ch39t on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:17 PM EDT
- Gupta's declaration - I take issue - Authored by: stingbot on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:28 PM EDT
- Gupta's declaration - Authored by: lukep on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:32 PM EDT
- And those software developers would be wrong - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:35 PM EDT
- I hope you're not REALLY that stupid - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 02:01 PM EDT
- Gupta's declaration - Authored by: tknarr on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 02:03 PM EDT
- Gupta's declaration - Authored by: rsmith on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 02:14 PM EDT
- Not identical -- big difference - Authored by: TomWiles on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 03:02 PM EDT
- Gupta's declaration - Authored by: Zarkov on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 07:15 PM EDT
- surely... - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 08:20 PM EDT
- surely... - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 11:29 AM EDT
- Infringement notice - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 08:32 AM EDT
- Gupta's declaration - Authored by: NickFortune on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 09:45 AM EDT
- Identical but not alike - Authored by: NigelWhitley on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 12:11 PM EDT
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| Authored by: Bill R on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:16 PM EDT |
Microsoft is another company that thinks that the only intellectual property
that matters is theirs and both feel that open source infringes on their IP.
---
Bill R
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: tiger99 on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:23 PM EDT |
| Would the Monopoly dare? Not that they have ever cared about what people, or
even courts, think in the past. It may be that Darl was the disposable pawn
and Gupta was the real Monopoly puppet behind the SCO scam. But I would be
delighted if Darl also was given a senior position in the Monopoly. Their end
would come all the quicker, hastened by his uncontrollable mouth. Since he
seemed to say that SVRx and Unixware were the same a few days ago, I can imagine
him saying that Windoze ME and Vista are the same. (They do have one thing in
common, both are trash, unfit for purpose!) [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:28 PM EDT |
Guys, the tech industry, in a larger sense cares about the outcome of these
cases but the crap at SCO aside, Gupta does have some valuable experience and
there are a number of companies out there that would like to make use of it.
PJ calls it a plum position repeatedly but Director is still a FAR more junior
role than he had at SCO.
Does something stink in the meadow? yes. But I would be careful in the rush to
judgement that his hiring at microsoft is JUST because of his old work at SCO.
I dont know if any of you guys have ever worked there but I can tell you that
Microsoft's hiring practices are 90% run by HR folks who are looking at a req
and a candidate history and wouldnt know two beans about what is going on with
SCO v world or Gupta's role in it. And would frankly care little if he can
present himself well and speak to the specific needs of the position he is
working towards.
I admit its suspect to some degree but I would be careful about jumping deep
into conspiracy land based on the announcement of an executive placement firm
who is hired to do exactly what it did: find him a job somewhere. Even if it is
more junior than his experience should speak to.
---
Clocks
"Ita erat quando hic adveni."[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: designerfx on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:35 PM EDT |
So, lets trace this chain back to its source and see what we find.
Here is who I am curious about:
Not just Laurel Group,
but the group that released that publication for them (see the bottom of the
Laurel Group publication):
Steven Gottlieb
Gottlieb Group Communications
206-427-xxxx (removed - find on the publication if needed)
Who is this guy, and what is his dirt in relation to the matter. I have gut a
feeling there are some connections to be found with this publications company,
since I can't find anything on them on the web as well.[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:36 PM EDT |
| Is Microsoft resting on their Laurels? [ Reply to This | # ]
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- What Laurels? - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 02:51 PM EDT
- Stan Laurels - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 12:39 AM EDT
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:37 PM EDT |
To avoid the perception of impropriety, Microsoft should have had a partner hire
him for short period of time to let things settle down. From now on, there will
always be lingering questions about das Gupta.
Either this is meant to be an aggressive, "we don't care what your
think" move, or else Microsoft's coat tails are getting so short that they
have no where else to stash him.[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 01:48 PM EDT |
Why didn't he go work for IBM ?
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 02:11 PM EDT |
Gupta will lead technical analysis and oversee competitive
positioning for Microsoft’s Server & Tool Division.
What is
"lead technical analysis and oversee competitive positioning"? It doesn't sound
like being responsible for delivering products. It sounds like being in charge
of cranking out material for the "Get the FUD" campaign.
If so, then
perhaps either Microsoft was impressed with Gupta's creative work for SCO, or
else perhaps they decided to create a make-work position for him. Either way,
perhaps we will start seeing "Get the FUD" white papers on how IBM stole
Microsoft IP from MS Server 2008 and "dumped" it into Linux. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 02:15 PM EDT |
Sandy Gupta is the kind of technology expert that Microsoft
prides itself on having inside the company. Perfect!
Funny, disturbing and obvious at the same time. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 02:25 PM EDT |
| We need a list or a database of all the people who were involved in this little
affair (and others). And, we need to keep it up to date after all they start
dispersing when it is all over. Whenever they show up at a new company, we add
that to their record. After all, we wouldn't want them to think that we had
forgotten about them, would we?
We need the names of all the managers,
lawyers, consultants, analysts, journalists, etc., and what their involvement
was. It is better to write it down than to just rely on our memories. If a bunch
of bad actors start showing up at a new company, or in the same division of
Microsoft, then we will know that something untoward is afoot, and keep an eye
out for it. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: sunnyfla on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 03:09 PM EDT |
| Back on December 18, I
wrote
:
I am sure some MS-backed
patent-trolling company has already made him an offer
he can't
refuse...
I didn't think at the time MS would be so obvious
about it as to hire him themselves.
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 03:42 PM EDT |
>
Director, Technical Competitive Strategy of the Server & Tools Division
<
o_O
um, was the post going or did they just make that one up?
Tufty
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 03:50 PM EDT |
This is SOP for Microsoft.
Remember Rick Belluzzo - the guy who pretty much single-handedly won the
64-bit-computing war for Wintel by basically being a mole for Microsoft in HP
and SGI?
Belluzzo, former Executive VP at HP who got HP to reduce their investments in
HP-UX and PS-RISC in favor of NT/Itanium, who then went on to be CEO of SGI
where he killed IRIX & MIPS in favor of NT/x86.
Microsoft rewarded him with a President&COO title.
I bet anyone from SCO who asks will find a nice spot at Microsoft or other
Microsoft-controlled("partner") companies.
[sorry for the double-post - I hit the wrong "reply" button][ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 04:10 PM EDT |
| His latest incarnation is as the CFO of BenefitFocus, a
medical software outfit out of Charleston, SC.
His canned bio repeats the
old "SCO owns UNIX" nonsense. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 04:23 PM EDT |
| On or before January 7 they finished a 73-day search.
January 7 minus 73
days = October 27 (a Saturday)
He became President of SCO Operations on
October 2.
So he was on the job for barely three weeks before he began
seeking "other opportunities".
And we learned he resigned on December 18.
If the 73 days ended then, it began on October 6, and he had been President for
less than a week.
I would say he knows not to flog a dead horse. Perhaps he
took the job only so he could put the word President on his resume. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 05:34 PM EDT |
That update should have carried a C&C, fortunately I have learned to swallow
the coffee before reading.
>
Young has shown the ability to manage rapid growth
<
At TSCOG - rapid negative growth maybe.
Tufty
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 05:51 PM EDT |
With SCO, he pulled a Kamikaze
Vista tried to pull a Kamikaze but didn't quite succeed.
So now they're hiring this guy to make sure Windows 7 crashes right.[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: JamesK on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 06:09 PM EDT |
"They forgot to add his stints at Waste Management and marchFIRST. Perhaps
he didn't want to list two companies that went bankrupt on his resume, or people
might start to wonder about that sentence regarding managing rapid
growth."
Whatever happened to 3 strikes and you're out?
---
If it's green and in my fridge, it's been there too long.
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Zarkov on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 06:57 PM EDT |
| "... Young served as Chief Financial Officer of the SCO Group, the owner of
the Unix operating system...."
I wonder how long, (or how many court
cases), it will take for all of the old time SCOggies to realise that tSCOG was
NEVER the owner of the UNIX operating system.....
One has to question the
veracity of the man's entire CV when such blatant errors are not corrected... [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: bezz on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 09:30 PM EDT |
Way to go, Bert! marchFIRST and SCO have been impressive performers for the
equity holders.
Ah, Waste Management, Inc. Another company driven into the
dirt by incompetence. I was in the environmental business in the 1980's and
1990's and remember the debacle, but I can't find enough supporting detail to
quote everything that happened there, but here's the short story.
Waste
Management tried to corner the market on landfills and bought everything it
could and built new ones regardless of cost. To get quick approvals for new
ones from the states, they would over design, resulting in excessive
construction expense. Eventually, the market caught up with them. Competitors
came on line with landfill space that was cheaper. That is when the income
declined while they still had massive debt to service.
Now we get to the
1990's answer to debt servicing that exceeds profit: subordinated debentures.
A subordinate debenture (often also called a subordinate note) is a big red flag
that a company is in trouble. When you see a company issuing them, start
reading its filings, because it can be a sign of trouble. A subordinate
debenture is for companies who can't get a bond rating to issue debt (raise cash
they will pay back with interest) at a favorable rate. When a bond rater tells
a company "you are worth Junk rating or less", you have to pay a very high
interest rate on a bond. But a subordinate debenture is issued by the company
itself and not rated as is a bond. It pays higher than prevailing rates, but
you can bet it is lower than what a rated bond (if it could even be issued)
would run. The only requirement to issue subordinate note debt is being traded
on a national exchange (e.g. Dow, NASDAQ), filing a prospectus with the SEC and
getting approval from the SEC. When you read the prospectus, look for certain
phrases. "We are cash flow negative on operations". "We may use the
money raised in a way that is not in your bet interest". Yes, I've seen
statements like those in more than one subordinate debenture prospectus that
were approved by the SEC. This garbage tends to be marketed as "widow and
orphan" (in the market parlance), but is often extremely high risk.
And the
word "subordinate" means just that: you are close to the back of the line in
event of bankruptcy. Common stock holders are behind you, but (depending upon
how written) preferred stock holders can be ahead of you. In the event of
bankruptcy, you are can very easily lose everything. The only hope you have for
recovery is to sue the company that sold them to you or -- in the event of fraud
-- the companies who financed the issuer.
Waste Management Convertible
Subordinate Debentures
I don't recall the bankruptcy date, but it was
late 1998 or early 1999 to my recollection.
Waste Management is the company
Bert worked for, as CIO, before marchFIRST, although I have no idea as to when
he was there and changed from IT to Finance. Way to grow the career and pick
winning companies, Bert. Best of luck with your new hire, Benefitfocus. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 05 2008 @ 10:15 PM EDT |
I don't know any of these people and I don't like or use Microsoft products
except under extreme duress.
However, I find the general tone of PJ's and other people's comments pretty
shabby. It seems that if a lawyer does his best to present his client's case
that's respectable, but if an engineer does the same that's heinous.
So if the news was that Gupta died, would you dance on his grave?
I thought Groklaw had better standards.
rhb[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: devil's advocate on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 03:45 AM EDT |
| He's entitled to seek employment elsewhere. I haven't read anything on this
topic that suggests anything other than speculative reasons as to why
MS hired him. You don't really know. Gupta did his best for SCO when they were
in a bind. I agree that the evidence he presented in the IBM case was highly
dubious, but SCO's case was more or less hopeless. No one else was prepared to
do that, but I don't think that makes him a pariah. What was illegal about it?
He opined, and his arguments were shot down by higher experts. So what? And
don't compare him to FOSS people when he worked for a living. That was his duty. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: mikeprotts on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 04:17 AM EDT |
Many people (and companies) have a price at which they would sell out, but the
trouble is that there is no return; there can never be total trust afterwards.
I will not condemn an individual for joining Microsoft, having blocked most
other options in his line of work, but as this is publicised on the internet,
there is no reason not to make public comment or question why Microsoft would
want to employ someone who had made such fundemental errors of fact and
judgement. If you put yourself in a public position you have to expect and
accept fair comment.
Cheers
Mike[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 07:34 AM EDT |
Yes indeed. Congratulations are due to M$ for Hiring Sandeep.
Hopefully Gupta's employment, an incompotent without doubt, will hasten M$,
alongwith himself, into an early, but utterly earned, unmarked grave.
krp[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: GriffMG on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 11:31 AM EDT |
PJ the link you helpfully included goes to a modified page now, he's dropped the
SCO bit!
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Keep B-) ing[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 12:00 PM EDT |
| A (Sandeep): Why, Microsoft of course! [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 01:06 PM EDT |
Check the website link that PJ gave. It seems to have be gone for me. Anyone
else?
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: DeepBlue on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 01:19 PM EDT |
If you are interesting in following these folks as they abandon ship there is
a group effort going on here. ---
All that matters is whether they can show
ownership, they haven't and they can't, or whether they can show substantial
similarity, they haven't and they can't. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 06 2008 @ 02:35 PM EDT |
"We could not be more pleased with Sandy coming to Redmond,"
said Jim Krouskop Partner, Laurel Group.
Well, heck yeah!
If he weren't heading to Microsoft, you folks wouldn't be getting your nice
commission.
Frankly, I think it's a little weird that the search firm is the
one making this announcement and not Microsoft. Is this common nowadays? I can't
recall seeing anything like it in the Chicago area. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: bobn on Wednesday, May 07 2008 @ 12:11 AM EDT |
Young has shown the ability to manage rapid growth.
That would
be growth of the negative variety. Which is popular these
days.......
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IRC: irc://irc.fdfnet.net/groklaw
the groklaw channels in IRC are not affiliated with, and not endorsed by,
either GrokLaw.net or PJ. [ Reply to This | # ]
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