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| OOXML News From Denmark |
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Friday, August 31 2007 @ 12:43 AM EDT
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I have the latest news from Denmark, where Groklaw member elhaard tells me that the recent news about irregularities in the OOXML voting process in Sweden has caused a reaction now in Denmark. It appears that pressure was put on partners there as well, although Microsoft denies that was the intent. I'll let elhaard tell you about it. He has translated some bits from articles in the press for us.
Before you read them though, I thought this article by Stephen Walli, "Microsoft's Failures with the OOXML Standard, puts it all into context:The ISO "fast track" vote on approval of Microsoft's OOXML document specification happens next Monday (2 Sep.), and news is breaking fast and furious as various countries report out early....
Perhaps the most disheartening failure however is the way Microsoft has abused the machine that is the world's standards development organizations. ...Microsoft is pushing organizational rules to the breaking point, ballot stuffing and buying its way to a win at ISO....
The sad part is that even if the ISO vote actually goes in Microsoft's favour, it still won't matter. It buys them a few years of market ignorance at best. This entire two year event is one for the standards text books on how not to respond to a business threatening standard. In the end, Microsoft will need to implement ODF natively. They don't know it yet, nor do they understand why, but it is just a matter of time. And with that introduction, here's the latest from Denmark:
*****************************
Dear PJ:
Just to let you know that the news from Sweden have shaken thing up in Denmark, too. According to this article, at least one company in Denmark was pressed by Microsoft to participate in Dansk Standard's meetings on OOXML.
1. "Microsoft pressured me in OOXML case", by Torben R. Simonsen:
Even though Microsoft denies having put pressure on partners to get them involved in the OOXML debate, some partners have experienced pressure from the software giant anyway....
A source, who wishes to remain anonymous, informs Version2, that he experienced Microsoft strongly trying to control the process. He denies that bribe was involved, but his Microsoft contact early on brought a certain form on the table, that the partner was to send to Dansk Standard. According to the source, the Microsoft contact repeatedly encouraged sending in the form....
"If I had not sent in a positive comment, it would have had consequences for our relations with Microsoft", he says.
Our source points to e.g. leads, support and seminars as areas that might be jeopardized if "he did not behave".
2. Also, a Danish MP has raised a question in Parliament to our minister of science and to our minister of commerce whether the government has tried to influence Dansk Standard: Has the government tried to influence Dansk Standard's position on whether OOXML should be made an international standard under ISO? IT spokesman for Dansk Folkeparti, Morten Messerschmidt, wants science minister Helge Sander's answer to that question.
Morten Messerschmidt bases his question on that a series of technical questions have been raised about whether OOXML meets the demands for interoperability.
As it is Dansk Standard (DS) who is to give the Danish recommendation -- based on the recommendation of the document sub-committee of DS -- it is important to the IT spokesman that it is the purely technical grounds that will be decisive for DS's recommendation to ISO and not other, political or economic grounds.
"For the inquirer, it is crucial that Dansk Standard makes its decision on a technical basis in total independence -- from political as well as economical interests. Interoperability is in itself a substantial goal, and thus the decision should not be influenced from the outside", Morten Messerschmidt writes in his reason for the question.
He especially wants to know whether there have been any communications between government, especially Ministry of Commerce and Ministry of Science, and Dansk Standard.
3. Question in Parliament, from the Parliament homepage:
Question no. S 5891
To the minister of commerce (Bendt Bendtsen (Conservative)). (August 30th, 07) by: Morten Messerschmidt (Dansk Folkeparti)
Question in full:
In connection with the ongoing ISO approval of MS-XML, has there been any contact between the government and Dansk Standard?
Reason:
As it is known, Dansk Standard will in the near future give Denmark's recommendation on whether MS-XML can be ISO approved. In this context, a series of questions have been raised about whether this standards meets the demands for interoperability. In the Danish model - as opposed to e.g. Sweden and other contries - it is Dansk Standard that must make the decision about what Denmark's vote will be.
For the inquirer, it is crucial that Dansk Standard makes its decision on a technical basis in total independance -- of as well political as economical interests. Interoperability is in itself a substantial goal, and thus the decision should not be influenced from the outside.
On this basis, the inquirer pleads for information about whether there have been any communication between the ministries of government, especially the Ministry of Commerce and the Ministry of Science, and Dansk Standard in connection with the future decision.
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| Authored by: grouch on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 12:51 AM EDT |
Post corrections here, please.
---
-- grouch
"People aren't as dumb as Microsoft needs them to be."
--PJ, May 2007
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: grouch on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 12:55 AM EDT |
| Please post commentary about NewsPicks items here. It helps to use the title of
the NewsPicks article as the title of your comment. Use "Post" mode of "HTML
Formatted" and see the instructions below your "Post a Comment" box to make
links clickable.
Thanks!
---
-- grouch
"People aren't as dumb as Microsoft needs them to be."
--PJ, May 2007
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: robobright on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 12:57 AM EDT |
| Make'em clicky if you can... [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 01:22 AM EDT |
Wow.
Microsoft sure like to throw their weight around, does it not?[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 01:32 AM EDT |
I'd like to know if in all these committees' "technical discussions" any of the
questions raised, for example, at
http://www.grokdoc.net
/index.php/EOOXML_objections
were addressed.
Where can
minutes be found? What kind of discussions were these?
It just seems
impossible to take these votes seriously. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 02:06 AM EDT |
I'm a native of Denmark and I believe that Microsoft have tried to influence
many of their partners to send in the ooxml backing letter. I have had contact
with two Microsoft partners and both of them had given their backing to the
standard.
At one a "thank you" letter from Microsoft was send out on internal
mail and they seemed rather proud for that pad on the back. When I tried to find
out why they backed ooxml, they didn't really know what it was and wasn't really
interested, since they weren't in the business of handling documents, so it
didn't really concern them either way. On the other hand they really needed to
to be on a good foot with Microsoft (they considered them self a 100% Microsoft
house), for marketing support, discounts and the like.
The other knew a little about ooxml. They had done some test trying to use ooxml
modifying the output from Word and generating reports, since the prospect of
inter operating with Word of course seemed interesting. Since they had been
doing the tests, they knew that it was a horrible format. They had lend their
support anyway for much the same reasons, namely that they weren't really in the
business of handling documents (it would just have been "nice to
have") and saw it as the only way if the wanted a continued relationship
with Microsoft and you want that, when you are creating desktop software since
all of your customers of course are on Windows. So even though they might not
have liked the format, it just made no business sense not to lend their
support.
As a side note, I find it telling that "Dansk Standard" won't disclose
how they are going to vote before the 3th of September according to
http://www.ds.dk/3537,1 .[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 03:18 AM EDT |
next Monday (2 Sep.),
Hmm 2 september is a sunday. I know that because that's mine birthday....I think
thats Monday (3 sep)[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 03:26 AM EDT |
Looking at this it seems like a serious attempt to corruptly manipulate
government buying processes. I went to the UK
Serious Fraud Office web site and the criteria for a fraud report
seem to be fullfilled here.
- the value of MS office is more than 90%
of $16,396 billion; Microsoft must be fighting about a noticable proportion
of this (>= 1million UKP);
- the body being fraudulently manipulated is the
International standards organisation
- a large number of the public
are concerned (even if it were just us, which it isn't)
- the case requires
specialised understanding of standardisation processes and standards
- MS has
a history of hiding evidence (e.g. the famed edited Gates video) so special
investigatory powers are likely to be needed.
However I'm sure that
making a report about Microsoft will be difficult since it's a big and rich
company with lawyers coming out of their ears. Can anybody help with advice
about how to get such a complaint heard? Can people from other countries find
other bodies which might be worth complaining to. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 04:14 AM EDT |
this is a link to the iso code of ethics. i couldn't see anything revelant
include in it to what's happening here,perhaps someone else might, and if not in
here perhaps there's some other iso regulations that cover a situation as
blatenly bogus as this one.
http://www.iso.org/iso/codeethics_2004.pdf[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 05:06 AM EDT |
For my the definition of a Standard is,
When more then one manufactuer agree to implement a technique
in there products.
All i see now in the ISO vote is that ONE manufactuer and
some resellers agree to market a Standard.
/Arthur[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Ian Al on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 06:31 AM EDT |
There were two authors who wrote a practically identical book with the title
'Something is rotten in the state of Denmark'. Shakespeare distributed his draft
in ODF format whilst Sir Francis Bacon used OOXML. The final outcome is that Sir
Francis Bacon's version was consigned to the tumbril of history and
Shakespeare's is still widely read to this day.
---
Regards
Ian Al
Linux==Genuine Advantage[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Bart van Deenen on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 06:45 AM EDT |
MS-XML seems a lot better description than OOXML.
Apparently MS's "Open" isn't fooling many.
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 06:51 AM EDT |
I think there is no problem in Microsoft following an open standard if the
competition can also access it. But from what I read the standard is not really
usable.
Was it not "John Kenneth Galbraith" who said don't always search for a
conspiracy, never underestimate plain stupidity? Perhaps this standard reflects
the way Microsoft works. It would explain why, with all there resources, MS
needs to continue buying external company's including their software products
and why many of their user interfaces are looking as they do.[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 07:03 AM EDT |
Norway will say No with Comments:
http://www.standard.no/imaker.exe?id=17235 in Norwegian
Sigvald
[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 07:05 AM EDT |
http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_tc_browse.htm?commid
=45374
ISO/IEC 26300:2006 Information technology -- Open Document Format for Office
Applications (OpenDocument) v1.0
It is listed as accepted... why?![ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: DaveJakeman on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 07:18 AM EDT |
What Microsoft is doing here is devious, deplorable, despicable, detestable and
many shorter words that don't begin with "d". Let me try to repress
my outrage.
The fact that Microsoft do make feeble attempts to conceal their heinous acts
shows they do at least care about what is being seen to occur here.
I see an avalanche beginning to rumble. The more exposure this gets, the
better. Go for it, PJ!
---
Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity – and I'm not
sure about the former. -- Einstein[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 07:49 AM EDT |
| From the Parliament notes:
"In connection with the ongoing ISO approval of
MS-XML"
Looks like the Danish have it figured out at the
highest political levels (unheard of here in the USA), namely, that it is "MS"
and not "OO" XML. A politician who not only didn't participate in lies, he went
past them. HOW REFRESHING!!! [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 09:34 AM EDT |
All this sounds like racketeering to me; and in this USA the RICO ACT might
apply:
In 2002, civil RICO claims were brought against the Catholic
Church by parishioners who were allegedly sexually abused by priests. RICO has
been used against the Mafia, businesses, political groups and now churches.
Literally anyone can find themselves in the crosshairs of a RICO
claim.
Today, RICO is almost never applied to the
Mafia. Instead, it is applied to individuals, businesses, political protest
groups, and terrorist organizations. In short, a RICO claim can arise in almost
any context.
The purpose of this website is to
simplify this very complicated area of the law and to articulate and make more
predictable the legal standards that govern such claims.
http://www.ricoact.com/[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 09:57 AM EDT |
Microsoft admits Swedish employee promised incentives for Open XML
support
But says it's not otherwise tampering with looming ISO
vote
http://www.computerworld.com/action/art
icle.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9033701&intsrc=hm_list
My apologies if the clicky doesn't work. It's what I had in the url on
the Computerworld page.
Well, if Microsoft is not tampering with the
ISO vote, they have friends who are![ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 10:02 AM EDT |
Believe it or not, in Canada, there are federal laws that enable any citizen to
prosecute anyone - if the citizen has hard evidence that any federal law has
been broken! It’s called a PRIVATE PROSECUTION!
(http://justicecanada.ca/en/dept/pub/fps/fpd/ch26.html)
I’m guessing that Britain, Scotland, Wales and so on, have a similar law;
because, most Canadian law is derived from Britain.
A woman in Kingston Ontario took evidence to a JUSTICE OF THE PEACE about the
City of Kingston, allowing toxic leachate to pour out of a former City waste
dump, which is now a public park and golf course, and into the Cataraqui River.
She had hard evidence - reports from either the federal or provincial government
- with data on the pollution.
The Justice Of The Peace then laid charges against the City of Kingston under
the federal Fisheries Act for allowing toxic leachate to pour out of a former
City waste dump, which is now a public park and golf course, and into the
Cataraqui River. A trial was then forced on Kingston, with the woman acting as
if she were an Attorney General. The conclusion of the trial produced a $150,000
fine for the City Of Kingston!
(http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/courts/How2JP.asp)
The question is ... what's happening in Canada with respect to OOXML? And is
there enough evidence so show that a Canadian law has been broken. If that's the
case then I am willing to initiate a PRIVATE PROSECUTION!
Naturally I would need help from a thousand or so of you here; especially
Canadian lawyers. Are there any Canadian lawyers here?[ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: wvhillbilly on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 11:27 AM EDT |
"If I had not sent in a positive comment, it would have had
consequences for our relations with Microsoft", he says. Our source points
to e.g. leads, support and seminars as areas that might be jeopardized if "he
did not behave". [My bold]
Does this not sound a bit like
blackmail? It does to me.---
What goes around comes around, and the longer
it goes the bigger it grows. [ Reply to This | # ]
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| Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 31 2007 @ 12:06 PM EDT |
I have Steve here with me on the squawk box.
Darl: Hi Bill, Hi Steve.
Bill: Darl, you said we could have the foot gun.
Steve: Yeah. We need it for the OOXML campaign.
Bill: You told us it was broken, but now we see you're
using it again.
Darl: It was. I had it fixed.
Steve: I don't believe you.
Darl: Too bad for you. I still need it. The trials
aren't over yet.
Bill: We need it more.
Steve: Why do you think we bought that license from you?
Bill: Put it on a truck TODAY!
Darl: Can't have it.
Steve: You (words you can't use on Groklaw) said we
could.
Darl: So sue me. (hangs up)
Bill: Steve, <inevitable punch line> PUT DOWN THAT CHAIR.[ Reply to This | # ]
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