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For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 04:57 AM EST

I gather from comments on the last article that some among you are not yet convinced that anything close to justice can ever happen in a courtroom. Well, dear SCO-wounded cynics, this is for you, an order signed on February 6 by Judge Lee West, a US District Judge in the Western District of Oklahoma, in the case of Capitol v. Foster . It should help you to see that while the courts may be slow, they can get there.

This order has to do with a woman who was not rich or powerful. A single mom. She started with no important friends to pull strings for her. What she had was innocence, a willingness to fight to prove it, and an unwillingness to give up and settle with the music industry, thus admitting to something she said she had not done. Indignation can be empowering, like a wave you can ride a long way, indeed. She also had an attorney willing to work, I gather, for maybe next to nothing, if necessary, Marilyn Barringer-Thomson.

As a result, the music industry, which has been suing the poor and powerless -- some believe so as to build a body of one-sided case law around US Copyright Law -- has been told where the line in the sand is. The plaintiffs who massed against this defendant -- Capitol Records, UMG Recordings, Maverick Recording Company, BMG Music, Arista Records, Sony BMG Music Entertainment, and Warner Bros. Records -- have been told they will have to pay a reasonable amount, yet to be determined, of this vindicated defendant's legal fees, because she has been ruled the prevailing party, against all odds.

It's not the money. Or more accurately, it's not just the money, although surely the music industry will now be more careful who they sue, so as to avoid another outcome like this. It's the precedent that really matters. The music industry's attempt to establish that an Internet account holder is responsible for any copyright infringement that occurs using it, whether or not the person knows about it or approves it, has bitten the dust in a courtroom in Oklahoma:

The Copyright Act does not expressly render anyone liable for infringement committed by another. Rather, the doctrine of secondary liability emerged from common law principles.... Under those common law principles, one infringes a copyright contributorily by intentionally inducing or encouraging a direct infringement. The elements of a claim for contributory copyright infringement are: (1) direct infringement by third party; (2) knowledge by the defendant that third parties were directly infringing; and (3) substantial participation by the defendant in infringing activities.... Merely supplying means to accomplish infringing activity cannot give rise to imposition of liability for contributory copyright infringement.... One infringes a copyright vicariously by profiting from direct infringement while declining to exercise a right to stop or limit it.

That's it. Simple fairness.

I hand typed the order out for you, because it is, in my opinion, that important that you read it, and I know you pretty well by now, and if I put up a PDF, some of you won't actually bother. And I know some of you seriously thought that the RIAA owned the courts and that their lawyers knew no bounds.

You can see a picture of the gutsy judge here, along with Wired's account:

This is a significant development; the landmark case could have dramatic repercussions for the RIAA's legal campaign against file sharers, since a precedent now exists for the RIAA to compensate wrongfully-sued defendants for their legal costs. (Capitol Records' mistake was to claim Debbie Foster was liable for any infringement occuring on her internet account, regardless of who actually downloaded and subsequently shared the files.)...

Update: I just spoke with Marilyn Barringer Thomson, Debbie Foster's attorney, who told me that she and her client are "pleased with the outcome," and explained that the judge granting attorneys' fees under the specific Copyright Act was preferable to him granting the fees under the more general 1927 statute (essentially, Thomson's main legal theory triumphed, and her back-up/alternate was denied). Finally, Thomson said that the label will likely owe Foster more than $50,000, since today's Order allows her to supplement the attorneys' fees total to include additional time spent on the case.

The defendant from the beginning declared that she had never file shared. She wasn't "fflygirl11," who the plaintiffs said had downloaded copyrighted music inappropriately using the defendant's account. She acknowledged that her estranged husband and adult daughter did have access to her account, but she herself had never downloaded anything. Eventually, the daughter was, by default, found guilty. But that wasn't the end. The plaintiffs didn't drop the matter against the mother.

"The plaintiffs represented to Ms. Foster that regardless whether she had directly participated in the downloading of their works, she would be liable as the owner of the Internet account," the judge writes. They claimed that she had "contributorily and/or vicariously infringed Plaintiffs' Copyrighted Recordings, including, but not limited to the extent that one or more members of their household engaged in copyright infringement."

When settlement talks broke down, because the defendant refused to give up her counterclaim requesting a declaratory judgment that she was not guilty of infringement, the plaintiffs moved to dismiss their claims against Ms. Foster with prejudice. They won that motion, and both their claims and her counterclaim were dismissed. But there was a boomerang for the plaintiffs they didn't expect, I'm guessing: the court ruled that since the claims were dismissed, Ms. Foster was the prevailing party and hence entitled to attorneys' fees. The plaintiffs didn't like that and argued against it. But the judge has concluded the plaintiffs were stretching Copyright Law and even Grokster too far, calling the contributory infringement theory "untested and marginal" although not willing to quite call it "frivolous or objectively unreasonable".

The court's analysis goes like this: ordinarily a court has discretion to award fees or not, and some of the factors it will consider will be such things as frivolousness. Other factors, Judge West states, are "motivation, objective unreasonableness of the non-prevailing party's case, and need in particular circumstances to advance considerations of compensation and deterrence." In the US, fees are not normally granted if a case is dismissed with prejudice. But in exceptional circumstances, it can happen, such as "where a plaintiff makes a practice of repeatedly bringing claims and then dismissing with prejudice 'after inflicting substantial litigation costs on the opposing party and the judicial system.'"

But that's not the situation here, the court had already ruled. It wasn't an exceptional circumstance like that. But under Copyright Law, this order says, there is no such restriction:

While awards for attorneys' fees are not granted to the prevailing party automatically under the Copyright Act, neither are they confined to "exceptional circumstances." Rather they are to be granted when equity and the ends of the Copyright Act are advanced. In fact, district courts within this circuit have observed that "though said to be a matter within the court's discretion, attorney's fees are awarded more often as the rule than the exception."...

Copyright law "ultimately serves the purpose of enriching the general public through access to creative works." ... Because that end is served by delineating the boundaries of copyright law as clearly as possible, both plaintiffs and defendants should be encouraged to litigate their meritorious claims and defenses.

Stop and realize what just happened: A judge has noticed that the purpose of Copyright Law isn't just to protect the music industry. The purpose of the law is to enrich the public by access to creative works. That judicial insight led this judge to think about the defendant's situation, what she had been through, what she was facing, and what Copyright Law would end up like if he didn't make it a little bit less one-sided in his courtroom, I gather. Under Copyright Law, the order states, plaintiffs and defendants are equal in that whoever prevails can be awarded attorneys' fees. Why? The order explains:

The United States Supreme Court has recognized that "it is peculiarly important that the boundaries of copyright law be demarcated as clearly as possible. To that end, defendants who seek to advance a variety of meritorious copyright defenses should be encouraged to litigate them to the same extent that plaintiffs are encouraged to litigate meritorious claims of infringement."...

"[W]ithout the prospect of such an award, the party might be forced into a nuisance settlement or deterred all together from exercising his rights." Id. The Court finds that this case presents a situation where considerations of compensation under Fogerty weigh in favor of the Court's award of attorneys' fees to Ms. Foster. Her only alternative to litigating the plaintiffs' contributory or vicarious liability claim was to capitulate to a settlement for a violation she insists she did not commit. Such capitulation would not advance the aims of the Copyright Act as the plaintiffs' untested theory would remain untested. The Court concludes that under the facts of this case, the prevailing defendant is entitled to an award representing her reasonable attorneys' fees and costs pursuant to § 505 of the Copyright Act.

It is a big win, as EFF correctly calls it, for this single mom, who has been going through this since 2004 and whose legal bills are in the tens of thousands of dollars already, with more discovery to go. And EFF, Public Citizen, the ACLU, and the American Association of Law Libraries filed an amicus brief [PDF] last August supporting Ms. Foster's motion for attorneys' fees.

There can be appeals and who knows what to come. The amount is yet to be determined, but the attempt to enlarge copyright's reach with this "marginal" theory of contributory infringement failed. A court has said that the prevailing party in a copyright case can be awarded attorneys' fees, that it's "a matter left to the Court's discretion" and it doesn't matter if the prevailing party is the plaintiff, that is the music industry, or the defendant. In this, they must be "treated alike". Is that not refreshing?

I've been telling you the truth. Courts are the one place where you actually can get a fair shake, even if you are not rich or powerful. It doesn't always happen, but it can, and it's supposed to. Judges don't have to do what money or power wants. Judges are immune, if they want to be, and usually they are. This is Exhibit A.

The law isn't like a tsunami, you know. Courts don't handle new areas of law, like cyberlaw, with overnight comprehension of just what to do. It's more like a slow and methodical incoming tide, one lap, then another, then another just a bit higher on the sand, almost imperceptible, then another, then one that doesn't reach as high and may even seem to be regressing, and then another much higher, and another. Until, hopefully, you get there.

********************

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
WESTERN DISTRICT OF OKLAHOMA

______________________________

Capitol Records, Inc., et al.,
Plaintiffs,

vs.

Debbie Foster and Amanda Foster,
Defendants.

Case No. Civ. 04-1569-W

___________________________

ORDER

Before the Court is the defendant Deborah Foster's application for an award of attorneys' fees (docket no. 129). The matter has been fully briefed and is ready for determination.

Background

Prior to filing this action, the plaintiffs learned from documents obtained under subpoena from Cox Communications, Inc. that an Internet user named "fflygirl11" had downloaded several of their copyrighted works utilizing an account registered to the defendant Deborah Foster. The plaintiffs, through their "settlement support center," contacted Ms. Foster regarding the alleged infringement. Although Ms. Foster never denied owning the account, she vehemently denied employing the Internet user name "fflygirl 11" or downloading the plaintiffs' works. Ms. Foster did indicate that her estranged husband and her adult daughter, Amanda Foster, had access to her account and might possibly have been responsible for the alleged infringement. The plaintiffs represented to Ms. Foster that regardless whether she had directly participated in the downloading of their works, she would be liable as the owner of the Internet account used by "fflygirl 11".

On November 18, 2004, the plaintiffs filed this action against Ms. Foster alleging that she had infringed their copyrights by unlawfully downloading musical works to which they owned the copyrights. After some initial discovery, the plaintiffs amended their complaint to name Amanda Foster as a co-defendant to the action. The First Amended Complaint, filed July 7, 2005, also added an allegation that "Plaintiffs are informed and believe that Defendants, without the permission or consent of Plaintiffs, have contributorily and/or vicariously infringed Plaintiffs' Copyrighted Recordings, including, but not limited to the extent that one or more members of their household engaged in copyright infringement." Deborah Foster answered denying that she had infringed the plaintiffs' copyrights and counterclaimed for "a declaratory judgment of non-infringement."1 Amanda Foster failed to answer and, on December 7, 2005, the Court granted the plaintiffs' motion for a default judgment against her.

The plaintiffs continued to pursue their claims against Deborah Foster 2 and, after failed attempts to resolve the matter outside of court, the plaintiffs moved to dismiss their claims against Ms. Foster with prejudice. Ms. Foster, whose litigation investment was by that point considerable, refused to dismiss her counterclaim. On July 13, 2006, the Court, upon motion by the plaintiffs, ordered that the plaintiffs' claims against Ms. Foster be dismissed with prejudice. In addition, it found that the dismissal of the plaintiffs' claims against Ms. Foster effectively resolved the controversy in her favor and negated any justiciable case or controversy between the parties. The Court, therefore, ordered that Ms. Foster's counterclaim for a declaratory judgment of non-infringement be dismissed. Finally, the Court determined that Ms. Foster was the prevailing party in the action and was thus eligible for an award of attorneys' fees pursuant to the federal Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. § 505. The question of Ms. Foster's entitlement to such an award was reserved for adjudication upon Ms. Foster's application for attorneys' fees.

ANALYSIS

Under the Copyright Act, a prevailing party's entitlement to an award of attorneys' fees is a matter left to the Court's discretion. Fogerty v. Fantasy, Inc., 510 U.S. 517, 533-34 (1994). However, prevailing plaintiffs and prevailing defendants must be treated alike. Id. While there is no "precise rule of formula" for the court to employ when determining a party's entitlement to an award of attorneys' fees, factors the court may consider include frivolousness, motivation, objective unreasonableness of the non-prevailing party's case, and need in particular circumstances to advance considerations of compensation and deterrence. Palladium Music, Inc. v. Eatsleepmusic, Inc., 398 F.3d 1193 (10th Cir. 2005). These factors may be used "to guide courts' discretion, so long as such factors are faithful to the purposes of the Copyright Act and are applied to prevailing plaintiffs and defendants in an evenhanded manner." Id. quoting Fogerty at 534 n. 19.

The plaintiffs argue that it would be inappropriate to grant Ms. Foster an award for attorneys' fees in this case. First, they point to the fact that the Court previously determined that it was improper to condition dismissal of the plaintiffs' claims against Ms. Foster on an award of attorneys' fees under Rule 41(a)(2) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. In its July 13, 2006 order, the Court noted that when a plaintiff dismisses an action with prejudice, attorneys' fees are usually not a proper condition of dismissal because the defendant cannot be made to defend again. See Aero Tech. Inc. v. Estes, 110 F. 3d 1523, 1528 (10th Cir. 1997). It is only in exceptional circumstances that a court may condition a dismissal with prejudice upon the plaintiffs' payment of the defendant's attorneys' fees. Id. Exceptional circumstances include such situations as where a plaintiff makes a practice of repeatedly bringing claims and then dismissing with prejudice "after inflicting substantial litigation costs on the opposing party and the judicial system." Id.

The Court concluded there was no evidence that the plaintiffs engaged in any practice that would constitute exceptional circumstances justifying an award of attorneys' fees under the provisions of Rule 41(a)(2). The plaintiffs contend that this finding is dispositive of the issue of Ms. Foster's entitlement to attorneys' fees under the Copyright Act. It is not. While awards for attorneys' fees are not granted to the prevailing party automatically under the Copyright Act, neither are they confined to "exceptional circumstances." Rather they are to be granted when equity and the ends of the Copyright Act are advanced. In fact, district courts within this circuit have observed that "though said to be a matter within the court's discretion, attorney's fees are awarded more often as the rule than the exception." Walden Music, Inc. v. C.H.W., Inc., 1996 WL 254654 (D. Kan.) at *6, quoting Big Tree Enterprises, Ltd. v. Mabrey, 1994 WL 191996 (D.Kan), aff'd 45 F.3d 439 (10th cir. 1994); see also Frank Music Corp. v. Sugg, 393 F.Supp.2d 1145, 1147 (W.D. Okla. 2005). Furthermore, although there is some overlap in the factors considered in their application -- notably, in both instances the court is to consider whether the claims at issue were "frivolous" -- the underlying aims of Rule 41(a)(2) and the Copyright Act are dissimilar. Rule 41(a)(2) aims primarily to thwart a claimant's abuse of his opponent and the judicial process. Copyright law "ultimately serves the purpose of enriching the general public through access to creative works." Fogerty at 527. Because that end is served by delineating the boundaries of copyright law as clearly as possible, both plaintiffs and defendants should be encouraged to litigate their meritorious claims and defenses. Id.

Because the Court's denial of Ms. Foster's request for attorneys' fees pursuant to Rule 41(a)(2) does not resolve the question of her entitlement to fees under the Copyright Act, the Court will next consider whether the plaintiff claims were frivolousness, improperly motivated, or objectively unreasonably as outlined in Fogerty.

The plaintiffs' claims against Ms. Foster were for direct, as well as contributory or vicarious copyright infringement. The plaintiffs appear to base their secondary liability claims against Ms. Foster solely on the fact that she maintained an Internet account which a member of her household utilized to infringe the plaintiffs' copyrights. The Copyright Act does not expressly render anyone liable for infringement committed by another. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios, Inc. v. Grokster, Ltd., 545 U.S. 913, (2005). Rather, the doctrine of secondary liability emerged from common law principles. Id. Under those common law principles, one infringes a copyright contributorily by intentionally inducing or encouraging a direct infringement. The elements of a claim for contributory copyright infringement are: (1) direct infringement by third party; (2) knowledge by the defendant that third parties were directly infringing; and (3) substantial participation by the defendant in infringing activities. SeeNewborn v. Yahoo!, 391 F.Supp.2d 181, 186 (D.D.C. 2005); see alsoNewborn v. Yahoo! Inc., 437 F.Supp.2d 1 (D.D.C.2006)(finding defendant was entitled to an award of attorneys' fees after prevailing upon plaintiff's frivolous and objectively unreasonable contributory copyright claim). Merely supplying means to accomplish infringing activity cannot give rise to imposition of liability for contributory copyright infringement. Id.; see also A & M Records, Inc. v. Napster, Inc., 239 F.3d 1004, 1013 (9th Cir. 2001). One infringes a copyright vicariously by profiting from direct infringement while declining to exercise a right to stop or limit it. Grokster, 545 U.S. 913.

Elektra Entertainment Group, Inc. v. Santangelo, 2005 WL 3199841, *3 (S.D.N.Y.). In Santangelo, the court denied the defendant's motion to dismiss the plaintiffs' direct infringement claim against her, but expressed skepticism that "an Internet-illiterate parent, who does not know Kazaa from a kazoo" could be held liable for copyright infringement committed by a child who downloads music over the Web without the parent's knowledge or permission but using the parent's Internet account. While the Court is not prepared to pronounce the plaintiffs' secondary copyright infringement claims to be frivolous or objectively unreasonable, they would certainly appear to be untested and marginal.

In addition to the weakness of the secondary copyright infringement liability claims against Ms. Foster, there is a question of the plaintiffs' motivations in pursuing them. The plaintiffs had every right to attempt to reach a settlement of their claims with a suspected infringer but there is an appeareance that the plaintiffs initiated the secondary infringement claims to press Ms. Foster into settlement after they had ceased to believe she was a direct or "primary" infringer.

The plaintiffs maintain that their litigation approach has been sanctioned by numerous courts which have refused to grant attorneys' fees awards to defendants who achieved favorable results in their copyright litigation. The Court will examine each of the unpublished opinions proffered by the plaintiffs.

Capitol Records, Inc., et al. v. O'Leary, 2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 5115 (C.D. Cal. Jan. 31, 2006) (attached as Exhibit G to the plaintiffs' response in opposition to the defendant's application for attorneys' fees), addresses a request for attorneys' fees not under the Copyright Act, but under Rule 41(a)(2) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. It is inapposite for reasons discussed above.

In Priority Records L.L.C., et al. v. Chan, No. 2:04-CV-73645-LPZ-RSW (E.D. Mich. May 19, 2005) (attached to the plaintiffs' response in opposition as Exhibit H), upon dismissal of the plaintiffs' claims with prejudice, the court declined to find that the defendant was the prevailing party. It conjectured, however, that even were the defendant determined to be the prevailing party, she would not be entitled to an award of attorneys' fees under the Copyright Act. The Court does not find Priority to be particularly applicable to this case. There are simply too many substantial dissimilarities between Priority and the case at hand for it to be persuasive. For instance, as soon as the plaintiffs in Priority concluded that it was the defendant's children who likely infringed their copyrights, they moved to amend their complaint to name the children and to dismiss the defendant. It appears that prior to the dismissal, the defendant had filed no counterclaims and no dispositive motions. The decisive dissimilarity, however, is the fact that in Priority, the defendant had only to defend against a well-established direct infringement claim. Their was no claim against her for contributory or vicarious infringement.

Similarly, in Virgin Records America, Inc., et al. v. Darwin, No. SA CV 04-1346 AHS (ANx) Fogerty factors. The court found it was not frivolous or unreasonable for the plaintiffs to pursue a direct infringement claim against the individual with an apparent connection to the I.P. address associated with unlawful downloads of the plaintiffs' copyrighted works.

Like Priority, Darwin involves only a direct infringement claim. Once the plaintiff in Darwin determined that the defendant's former roommate was the direct infringer of their copyrights, they sought to dismiss the defendant. They did not elect instead to pursue secondary liability claims against the defendant. It is this Court's opinion that such claims veer much closer toward the boundaries of the frivolous and unreasonable than does a direct infringement claim.

Finally, Elektra Entertainment Group, Inc. v. Perez, Civ. No. 05-931 AA (D. Or. Oct. 25, 2006) (attached to the plaintiffs' supplemental authority to their response in opposition), involves a dismissal without prejudice. The Court is unable to accept the plaintiffs' contention that the distinction between a dismissal without prejudice and a dismissal with prejudice is one "without a difference." The dismissal of the plaintiffs' claims against Ms. Foster with prejudice served as the basis for the Court's finding that she was the prevailing party in this litigation and was thus eligible for an award of attorneys' fees. Neither can the Court agree with the plaintiffs that the facts in Perez are "virtually identical" to the facts in this case. LIke the other cases cited by the plaintiffs, Perez entails only direct infringement claims. It does not involve a claim of contributory or vicarious liability against the dismissed defendant. In fact, in direct contrast to this case, upon becoming convinced that it was other members of the defendant's family who were responsible for infringing their copyrights, the Perez plaintiffs dismissed the defendant and proceeded against their family members.

Unlike the courts in the unpublished opinions cited by the plaintiffs, this Court must consider whether a defendant should receive an award of attorneys' fees when she successfully defends against the novel application of secondary copyright infringement claims. The United States Supreme Court has recognized that "it is peculiarly important that the boundaries of copyright law be demarcated as clearly as possible. To that end, defendants who seek to advance a variety of meritorious copyright defenses should be encouraged to litigate them to the same extent that plaintiffs are encouraged to litigate meritorious claims of infringement." Furthermore, when the prevailing party is the defendant, "who by definition receives not a small award but no award," awarding fees becomes particularly important. See Woodhaven Homes & Realty, Inc. v. Hotz, 396 F.3d 822, 824 (7th Cir. 2005), quoting Assessing Technologies of WI, LLC v. WIREdata, Inc., 361 F.3d 434, 436-37 (7th Cir. 2004). "[W]ithout the prospect of such an award, the party might be forced into a nuisance settlement or deterred all together from exercising his rights." Id. The Court finds that this case presents a situation where considerations of compensation under Fogerty weigh in favor of the Court's award of attorneys' fees to Ms. Foster. Her only alternative to litigating the plaintiffs' contributory or vicarious liability claim was to capitulate to a settlement for a violation she insists she did not commit. Such capitulation would not advance the aims of the Copyright Act as the plaintiffs' untested theory would remain untested. The Court concludes that under the facts of this case, the prevailing defendant is entitled to an award representing her reasonable attorneys' fees and costs pursuant to § 505 of the Copyright Act.

Ms. Foster has submitted copies of her counsel's billings and affidavits as to their reasonableness. The plaintiffs have not addressed the reasonableness of the amount of fees requested by the defendant but have instead requested that the Court grant them time for discovery into the matter should the Court find Ms. Foster to be entitled to a fee award. The Court will, therefore, take up the matter of the appropriate fee award after discovery on the issue has been completed and the matter has been briefed by the parties.

Accordingly the Court:

1. GRANTS in part the defendant Deborah Foster's applicastion for attorneys' fees, finding she is entitled to an award of her reasonable attorneys' fees in this action under § 505 of the Copyright Act;

2. DENIES the defendant Deborah Foster's application for attorneys' fees under 28 U.S.C. § 1927;

3. ORDERS the plaintiffs to inform the Court on or before February 13, 2006, of the amount of time they require for discovery into the issue of the reasonableness of the defendant's fee request;

4. DENIES the defendant Deborah Foster's motion for leave to file amici brief (docket no. 132); and

5. DENIES the defendant Deborah Foster's motion for scheduling order (docket no. 131). Once the court has set a date for completion of discovery into the matter of the reasonableness of the defendant's fee request, it will establish firm dates for the defendant to supplement her application for attorneys' fees, for the plaintiffs to respond to that supplemented application, and for the defendant to reply.

ENTERED this 6th day of February, 2007.

[signature]

LEE R. WEST
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE


1 Deborah Foster also asserted a counterclaim for prima facie tort. That counterclaim was dismissed pursuant to the Court's order entered October 5, 2005.

2 The plaintiffs maintain that they were willing to dismiss their claims against Deborah Foster, but that she would not agree to resolve the matter unless she was reimbursed the amount she had incurred in attorneys' fees.


  


For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster | 285 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Corrections here please
Authored by: Erwan on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 05:21 AM EST
If any

---
Erwan

[ Reply to This | # ]

Off Topic here
Authored by: Erwan on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 05:25 AM EST
As usual. Remember, some like clickies...

---
Erwan

[ Reply to This | # ]

fairness: 5 years, 100 millions
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 05:42 AM EST
The SCO Group is going to be squashed in its extortion attempt against IBM. Yes.
And that will be good for the country, for the world, for my mind and for my
stomach.

But please, PJ, don't tell me that's justice. If justice needs 5 years
and 100 millions dollars, who can afford it. This particular case where the
extortionists get squashed is no encouragement to the general public and no
warning to other extortionists. They will just say: tough luck, we'll do
better.


[ Reply to This | # ]

Does this tale not prove the cynics right?
Authored by: Winter on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 05:48 AM EST
I am a non-US citizen. I have hardly any knowledge of the US system. But I am
sorry to say, this story does not give me confidence in the US system.

Someone once wrote that if something is in the papers, it is bound to be
exceptional, and mostly unimportant.

I see the widespread coverage of this case as proof of it's exceptionality.
Which means, that there are hundreds or thousands of others who were not this
happy.

So, if anything, this case strengthens my conviction that it hardly ever is
worth the trouble to fight in a US court.

Consider the fact that no such stories appear in the European or Japanese
papers. Not because they don't happen. But because every time someone tries this
trick there, they are thrown out of court. They also always have to pay the
costs.

Rob

---
Some say the sun rises in the east, some say it rises in the west; the truth
lies probably somewhere in between.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Dismissing with prejudice
Authored by: Jaybee on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 05:56 AM EST
'Dismissal with prejudice' seems key to the judgement but I don't know the legal
meaning. Could someone enlighten me?

---
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don’t ever count on having both at
once. (TEFL RH)

[ Reply to This | # ]

For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 06:19 AM EST
Net net, your example demonstrates that justice is the exception rather than the
rule.

[ Reply to This | # ]

call me a cynic...
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 07:07 AM EST
But if her attorney took up the case for peanuts, then her awarded attorney
costs are just peanuts.
In other countries, the loser automatically pays all the costs, so i wouldn't
even call this exceedingly fair, just as it should always be.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Always the cynic ...
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 07:10 AM EST
I don't see how this will stop any legal entity with
loads of money from doing anything. Until CEO's, BOD
members etc start doing hard time in jail, loosing
pensions, and/or start suffering similar personally
costly punishments, nothing will change.

To me, and most other people I might add, $50,000 sounds
like, and is a lot of money. I could not afford to
pay 1/10 of that amount to an attorney for anything.
If I represented a big company that had quarterly profits
of 100 times that amount, as soon as I left the
courtroom, I just smile becauses we got off so cheap.

This is the same reason that companies like M$ find
it more cost effective to break laws, send their
attorneys to wherever to argue their case while
continuing to break the laws, than to obey the laws.

No, this changes nothing, and no behaviour will change
because of it either. If anything, it just reinforces
the idea that bogus lawsuits by those with BIG$ are OK
because they are so cheap for the plaintiff. Who knows,
a few might actually work! A very cost effective endevour
since maximizing profits is all that really matters to
business.


[ Reply to This | # ]

For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: PolR on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 07:50 AM EST
The source of the cynism is not in the lack of results. It is in the process.

When sued in the US you have to go through the ordeal up to the bitter end in
order to get justice. You need to bear the stress, the disruption and the costs
of the procedures. You risk losing you way in the legal wranglings and lose your
case even if you believe you are right. And at the end all you get is you are
told you were right from the beginning and maybe, if the other side has been
especially obnoxious, maybe your attorney fees are reimbursed.

What about the time, disruption and stress? What stops a wealthy professional
bully to do what bullies do and write off the other side's attorneys fees as the
cost of doing business? Common sense says frivolous lawsuit must be detected
much earlier and trown out of court. There is no validation that the plaintiff
has a potentially valid case upon starting a lawsuit.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Fairnes of the US legal system.
Authored by: troll on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 07:52 AM EST
Please think about it.

IF the legal system in the USA was fair and well balanced then this decision
would not make headlines all around the world.

IF the legal system in the USA was really fair, there would be no need for such
a ground breaking decision and the whole charade would have been finished well
before MAFIAA started draging an inocent person through years of frivolous
lawsuit.

IF the legal system in the USA was really fair, this decision would be
"bussiness as usual" or "nothing to see here, let us move on to
some interesting news"

Please note how quickly german courts dealt with SCO claims.

Oo, ok. Call me a cynic.
I consider the legal system in my country much saner than the system in the USA.
It is still far from perfect but ...
Yet, when I hear "lawyer", my feelings are very negative. Various
lawyers, I had the misfortune to deal with, invariably asked for payment that
was MAGNITUDE higher than what I would consider reasonable. If a lawyer asks you
for payment that amouts to your month salary for an hour of his lousy work you
are bound to be ... aehmm ... dissatisfied. And the work *was* lousy because he
forgot to replace his previous clients name and address with my name and address
in five places and had to correct and reprint the document five times (after *I*
have pointed out the error when reading the document I was about to sign). I
won't even mention that the job would have taken 10 minutes if that lamer used
"search and replace" function in his word processor. Sigh.

Yours truly ...

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No, Ms Foster did not get justice
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 07:53 AM EST

Legal expenses, i.e. mainly attorney's fees, were paid by the losing side. That's good.

But it's not even close to justice.

She has lost a huge amount of her own time, and undergone a tremendous amount of stress and grief - entirely without compensation. The people who caused her all that stress and grief just sit back in their big comfortable chairs in their corner offices, and continue to pay themselves obscenely large salaries. To them, the whole business was merely a couple of lines in the monthly status updates from the company lawyers. And the profits to be reported to stockholders are a couple of percent less than they might otherwise be.

Do you really call that "justice"?

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Reminds me of Ray Donovon's quote
Authored by: tz on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 08:46 AM EST
The judge told him he was free to go (after years of investigation).

He retorted "What room do I go to to get my reputation back?".

Were her legal fees paid by the losing side (as they have in nearly every other
country)?

So, unless she also gets damages with a declaration that all those big companies
are - I think the term is - vexatious litigants - they can simply turn around
and do exactly the same thing to her again if they detect activity in her
account.

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For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: hamstring on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 08:48 AM EST
Yes, I am Cynical, and here is why..

1. Of time and money it cost the person who was innocent from the beginning
(over 2 years) only "some" of the money will be recovered.

- How can these legal bullies repay the time?
- How can they repay the stress?
- How can they repair the damage to her reputation?
* You are not very bright if you think this had no impact on her personal and
professional reputation.


Lets face a few facts:
1. The legal bullies are not punished for their efforts. Repaying legal fees
for an attorney who was working for "peanuts" is not punishment. My
guess is that it would simply add up to a single day in court for their legal in
actual dollars.
2. This ruling will be in the appeal system for 3-5 years. If awarded, the
only cost to the company is the same ruling they started with. They sit on that
50K in the meantime, collecting interest. Meanwhile, the innocent person not
only spends initial money on the defense, but has to wait 7-10 years for
resolution(from the beginning of the action), and pay additional costs for the
appeal process.

Is it a start to having a fair system? Sure it is, however as so many pointed
out already: If the US legal system was fair, this would not be such big news.

---
* Necessity is the mother of invention. Microsoft is
* result of greed

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For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: ThrPilgrim on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 09:04 AM EST
I have often thaught that the only way to trully get justice is to make fines
relitive to the prievious years gross income either at the time the case started
or finished, which ever was the higher.

That way you could not make a case last over a year and delibratly drop your
income for the year.

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Call me a cynic too
Authored by: FrankH on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 09:15 AM EST
This case does nothing to reassure me. SCO brought a frivolous case, without
evidence, based on what could best be described as a suspicion.

A system that was interested in justice would have made SCO show its evidence
before anything else happened.

Every situation probably has an appropriate quote from either Shakespeare or
Dylan. Dylan has this one covered:
"Couldn't help but make me feel ashamed to live in a land where justice is
a game."

---
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose,
Nothing ain't worth nothing, but it's free" Kris Kristofferson

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For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 09:34 AM EST
PJ, rarely do I find myself disagreeing with you but I have to say that this
single case hardly vindicates the US legal system. The jurisprudence of most
judges wouldnt make it past a 10th grade civics class. Simply put you cannot
reason yourself from the Constitution to where we are today without
contradiction. The legal system is broken and, with all due respect, if you
think our current legal system is concerned about fairness you need to grow up.

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Cynical comment number 2475
Authored by: Wardo on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 09:48 AM EST
I wonder why the ISP's are never charged with this assistance copyright
infringement theory. They provided the account used to access the protected
material, and didn't do anything to stop it, so why haven't they been sued?
(Let's not stop there, what about the long haul telco companies linking all the
ISPs...)

Or am I forgetting/missing a news article where an ISP was sued?

Yeah I know there are clauses in their contracts that state more or less that
they aren't responsible for what you do online, or where your kids surf etc.,
but why hasn't the
recording industry added them to the list of infringers...

Wardo

---
Wardo = new user();
Wardo.lawyer = FALSE;
Wardo.badTypist = TRUE; //don't bother to point out tyops
Wardo.badSpeller = TRUE; //or spelling misteaks

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Dismissed with Prejudice
Authored by: DaveJakeman on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 09:57 AM EST

I'm dismissing this with prejudice - my prejudice.

Why?

I am judging, not by what happens in that case over there, but by what happens in this case right here.

That's what the courts should do, too. But afraid to make a decision all by their ownsomes, they look to what others decided elsewheres to try and bolster their own.

A decision can and should be based on the law, the case and the facts of the matter. Only. Not what Judge X, over there, yesteryear, decided in some other case, similar to, but not quite the same as this one right here.

Justice is supposed to be blind. But the statue of the lady holding the scales is lifting her blindfold to crib the notes of others past, instead of doing what she was sculpted for. If only she could find someone good enough to copy from...

---
I would rather stand corrected than sit confused.
---
Should one hear an accusation, try it on the accuser.

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Litigation itself is punishment
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 10:39 AM EST
There's just one flaw in the whole argument of justice being finally done:
time.

Time is quantifiable and is an asset. How many technologies Also, keep income
to light with the sole mission of saving us time? And why is that? Because time
is precious. Once it's gone, it's gone.

So the defendant's attorneys will get their money, which one can argue is an
actual payment for the time they put in the case, so they lose nothing.

But will the defendant be given her time back? All the time she wasted having to
defend herself, to stand in courtroom away from her children? Can that ever be
recovered?

Now how is it fair that someone who did nothing has to go through all this
trouble and live for months without knowing how her future will look like?

Litigation itself is punishment unless there's a way to give innocent defendants
their time back (or a big check for their trouble, at least), methinks.

I know the argument: society demands that price in order to determine the truth
and there would be no way to do so otherwise, and society would be irreparably
harmed if said mechanism didn't exist. Perhaps, but let's not pretend it's fair
to innocent people.

The Scale of Justice may balance itself out in the future, as many other
innocent would-be-defendants are saved the trouble of being punished due to the
outcome of this case. But that's still not fair to the defendant in this case,
is it?

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Using the same logic, then SCO might have to pay AutoZone etc... their legal fees?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 10:47 AM EST
The newSCO suit vs AutoZone and any others, was based on copyright, and since
newSCO was suing more than one party over this, then might AutoZone be able to
recover legal fees, like if Novell prevails on the Copyright, and IBM prevails
as well?

Are we still talking about the same apples here?

Anyone?

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Another cynic
Authored by: baomike on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 10:48 AM EST
This is a rare exception. Your reporting testifies to that.
I am glad she won, but that does not change the system.

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For the Cynics, More Evidence of Abuse
Authored by: shiptar on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 11:04 AM EST
This decision is nothing to be proud of.

If anything it's evidence of how horribly wrong this system is.

A judge realized he is not there for the exclusive purpose of corporate
extortion? What a genius he must be.

That poor woman isn't going to get back the 3 years completely wasted doing
this.

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methodical incoming tide
Authored by: hAckz0r on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 11:40 AM EST
It's more like a slow and methodical incoming tide, one lap, then another

Yes, and how many injustices are done before the tide finally ebbs and the big ship DoJ's course is finally corrected? A LOT of people can actually drown in the process before things get properly on course. People should not be allowed to file cases where there is no substantial evidence and just walk away when it fails to convict. There needs to be a measured response to these failed claims just to keep them from being a tool to extort innocent people as they are doing now. Paying legal fees just doesn't cut it.

What of their missing work and lost wages? Health issues due to stress? There are lots of non-tangible and non-quantifiable damages done when someone has to go through this kind of ordeal. But I really do have to hand it to this judge for taking the step, no leap, to look at the bigger picture and to realize what the whole 'Copyright thing' is about. Drawing this line in the sand by this judge is somewhat akin to stepping out from the front battle lines and taking a real chance. I only wish all the other judges before this case took the time to reflect on “fairness” rather than rely on the lack of any previous legal president.

---
DRM - As a "solution", it solves the wrong problem; As a technology its logically infeasible.

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The exception proves the rule
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 12:28 PM EST
It's always nice to see a case ending in what one would think is the right
decision. But one example is not enough to rest back and say "The system is
working".

Similarly, recently there was a case where Microsoft "stole" a patent
and then was ordered to pay. Sounds like a victory for the patent holder, and a
loss for Microsoft. But one needs to look at Microsoft's behaviour as a
strategy, and so one needs to look at other, probably unreported, cases, and see
how things turn out. In other words, one loss will contribute a negative amount
to the whole sum. It's hard to judge what the "whole sum" is. A
reasonable guess is that the "whole sum" is a huge positive amount for
Microsoft.

And so, is it not more reasonable at this time, to conclude that this decision
is actually more to be looked at as a another case of "the exception proves
the rule"?

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I'd like to see Justice for the Rich
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 12:30 PM EST
I don't find this justice.

I've lived through a frivolous landlord-tenant lawsuit. My landlord pulled
illegal actions on me that left me feeling I would lose my apartment. I got
physically ill, lost 30 pounds in a matter of months, practically had a nervous
breakdown and lost several years of my life over the matter.

I've won my case and I've thought of taking the the guy to court, but have
learned that at best our "justice" system will give him a slap on the
wrist.

There are tenants who landlords have done far worse with (dying because of no
heat, being beaten up by thugs, bitten in rat infested apartments) and I've
learned our justice system does little for them too.

Our "justice system for the rich" is set up so that the rich can
literally get away with murder.

What's needed is proper punishment not for the poor (which our system is set to
do very well) but for the rich.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Bad example - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, February 09 2007 @ 02:52 AM EST
    • Bad example - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, February 09 2007 @ 03:07 AM EST
For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: tknarr on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 12:38 PM EST

Frankly I think this case and ruling simply highlight the fact that awards of costs (not attorney's fees, actual costs) should, at least when the case never goes to trial, be the norm and not the exception. Think about it. The plaintiff has control over whether they file a case, when they file, how much evidence they have and how strong a case they have when they file. Defendant, by comparison, has no say whatsoever in whether someone files a lawsuit against them. They have to bear the costs without having any control over the matter. Given that disparity, the defendant shouldn't have to bear a significant burden of cost if plaintiff screws up and doesn't truly have a case.

In addition the courts should be there to rule on cases, not to be a club for the plaintiff to wave to get a settlement out of the defendant. Plaintiff should be presumed to want a ruling on the merits of their case, and if they don't want a ruling they've no business filing a lawsuit in the first place. So if the plaintiff wants the case to go away without a ruling, the defendant again shouldn't be left on the financial hook for significant costs because of the plaintiff's decisions.

In short:

  1. If plaintiff asks for a dismissal after defendant's begun to incur costs, an award of actual costs to the defendant should be automatic and mandatory. Remember that if plaintiff wasn't ready to have a judge rule on the case, they had the choice not to file it.
  2. If the judge dismisses the case without ruling, an award of actual costs to the defendant should be the norm. The only reason not to award costs should be that the reason for the dismissal wasn't within the plaintiff's control and couldn't reasonably have been known to them before filing the suit.
  3. At the very start of a case, before discovery begins, there should be an evidentiary hearing. Plaintiff must put their initial theory and all evidence supporting it on the table, and defense's responses are limited to things that wouldn't have required discovery for the plaintiff to uncover. Plaintiff has to have at least one item that'd meet the bar for surviving summary judgement at that point for the case to continue.

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Good News in the Litigation-Happy USA
Authored by: Prototrm on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 12:48 PM EST
Thank you, PJ. This is indeed a warm spot of hope on a cold, miserable day.

I have always thought that, if you sue somebody and lose, you should pay the
victim's reasonable cost of defending themselves (emphasis on
"reasonable"). I personally think it's a shame that this is not
normally the case, as it would definitely discourage the greedy and the
frivolous.

However it is done, the law ought to protect those seeking to defend themselves.
Lawsuits ought to be the *last* resort in resolving differences, not the first,
and there should be consequences (Expen$ive consequences) for those initiating
the process against those unable to properly defend themselves, or for frivilous
reasons.

Imagine where we'd be if SCO had sued someone without the resources of an IBM?
Justice shouldn't go to the party with the deepest pockets, and it's nice to see
that, at least in this case, that didn't happen.

---
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the
exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

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Programmers are professional cynics.
Authored by: rcsteiner on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 12:51 PM EST
We spend our careers finding and fixing flaws in existing logic systems, and
also designing and implementing logic systems.

To us, the legal system is just another example of a complex logic system,
albeit one which obscures many of its rules and procedures (as well as some
aspects of its actual operation) behind seemingly arbitrary barriers.

It shouldn't be surprising, therefore, that many of us who write and maintain
software systems for a living are quite skeptical of the current legal system,
as we are of *all* existing logic systems designed and implemented by humans.

To some of us, the US legal system appears to be similar to Microsoft Windows in
many ways -- it is large and unwieldy, it was created by (and is maintained by)
parties who have a strong vested interest in its continued operation, and those
who are most familiar with its processes and procedures seem to have
"faith" in its continued correctness and utility even though it seems
to take longer and longer for the process to work (as well as more and more
resources).

It may be that a partial or complete rewrite is in order.

---
-Rich Steiner >>>---> Mableton, GA USA
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

[ Reply to This | # ]

For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 01:08 PM EST
> have been told they will have to pay a reasonable amount,
> yet to be determined, of this vindicated defendant's
> legal fees

Do you honestly think the defendant (or her attorneys) will EVER see ANY of that
money? Just getting a judgement that someone owes you money does NOT force them
to PAY it. She'll spend twice that much if she wants to pursue actually GETTING
that money.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Add me to the list of the Cynics
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 01:46 PM EST

The outcome of this case does nothing but re-enforce the cynic in me.

Why?

The system of laws are supposed to protect and serve its people. The system failed to protect this woman from the costly lawsuit. The case should never be allowed to proceed the way it did.

The majority of the people in this country (USA) cannot afford to defend themselves against those who have money to buy them the best lawyers (or should I say the best legal representation).

So when Debbie Fosters stood her ground and fought back, she proved her winning the case to be the exception rather the rule. So for her, justice was served. (Well, if you want to call that justice. I know I wouldn't.)

IMHO, the system, in general, has not done enough to protect people and business against frivolous lawsuits. (The case jumps to my head to serve as an example is the SCO vs IBM case.) The system is essentially broken and the many cynic responses here reflect that.

I will remain a cynic for as long as the system remains unchanged.

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For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: Desperado62 on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 02:08 PM EST
I have been following this site for years, but just had to comment on this. The
whole point of the post (an antidote for us cynics) is negated by the second
paragraph:

"What she had was innocence, a willingness to fight to prove it,"

I thought that in this country we were innocent until proven guilty, not that we
had to prove our innocence. I must not have gotten the memo when they changed
that, did anyone else see it?

Sincerely...DES

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It is a nice ending, but...
Authored by: Jamis on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 02:17 PM EST
I think it is an isolated nice ending. A couple of my own anecdotes.
1. My son and his wife were harassed for years by her ex, despite numerous
warrants for his violations of protection orders. He appeared in court numerous
times and his lawyer always got extensions and plea agreements. They lost days
and days of work for court appearances, suffered through years of his verbal and
physical abuse. However, he has finally withdrawn after they continued to file
charges and get warrants filed against him. He was never jailed for any of his
plea agreements. The worst he received was 60 days of home detention with an
ankle bracelet. No big deal for him as he was unemployed anyway.
2. I had numerous problems with a new automobile (51 repairs in the first 15
months to correct manufacturing problems) and after the 12 month warranty
expired, the dealer refused to have anything to do with it. He told me that he
would do nothing until the courts ordered him to. The manufacturer stonewalled
on the problems also. Since this pre-dated the State's lemon law, I was left
holding the bag. My attorney said I had a case, but I needed to expend
approximately US$3,000 for case work and depositions and to expect it to take at
least three years to work its way through the court system. He had one for a
faulty sunroof that was 2 1/2 years old already and the client didn't even have
the car anymore because the dealer's attorney was playing the stall game. This
was in the late '80s. Three months after I decided not to take legal action,
the dealer had his franchise pulled by the manufacturer and the dealership went
out of business.

I think the lesson learned here is that you have to expect court action to take
many years and lots of dollars for anything other than small claims court
action.

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For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 02:44 PM EST
PJ;

I hope that I do not violate decorum, but have to point out that we lost members
of the Groklaw community awaiting resolution of this fiaSCO. While I agree with
you that patients is a virtue, we live in an age requiring swift (half to one
hour) resolutions. The law can be a wonderful thing - but this whole affair is
a travesty and casts a pall over its implementation, and those lost failed to
see the final, and I trust, satisfying conclusion. However, I fear that because
of the process that satisfaction will be greatly diminished; as much as we all
want to see you in your 'new' red dress.

[ Reply to This | # ]

For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: McMartin on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 03:04 PM EST
I've mostly assumed that the "cynics" at this point fall into one of
three categories:

* Am3rikk4 is t3h ev1lz0rz l0lz n00bz (In both domestic and foreign editions -
the latter is easily recognizable by their home nation's system being Obviously
The Only Logical Way To Do This);
* People who yearn for dictatorial kangaroo courts;
* People who are paving the way for SCO to be able to claim that they only lost
because IBM has more money and thus was able to purchase "justice"
outright, when in fact SCO's claims were all valid, honest, pay no attention to
the actual motion practice or arguments, etc., they have more money so they must
have won unjustly.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Dear fellow cynics
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 03:18 PM EST
Dear fellow cynics,

We should be comforted by the fact that the big companies do not yet own our
courts. We should also be comforted by the notion that SCO has little left
except for a shaky ladder theory. While it may be a shame that our courts are
subject to a DOS motion practice attack, our courts are still open and
functioning. And I see nowhere yet that says that any misbehavior has been
conducted that still can't be punished, with the possible exception of the
patent infringement that IBM already dropped.

[ Reply to This | # ]

For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 05:57 PM EST
When I meet you I make an assumption you are honest.
When you cheat me I assume that I made a false assumption.
If I have to deal with you a second time I no longer assume
you are honest but give you the benefit of the drought that
maybe I did something wrong.
When you cheat me I from then on assume you are not honest.
If I am still forced to you I then start with the
assumption that you are not honest.
When you cheat me I know you are a criminal and that any
dealings with you will have to proceed on that bases.
If i have to deal with you I proceed on the bases that you
are a criminal and are definitely going to cheat me.
When you do cheat me I began to plot how to retaliate.

The legal situation in the US once before reached the stage
that everyone assumed that every decision was biases and
that they were being cheated.
As a result several infamous organizations were formed one
in the North, a different one in the South, and another
different one on the West Coast.

The results in each case was mob rule where large numbers
of innocent people suffered greatly for slight infractions
of unwritten and often unspoken rules applied on the bases
of pure whim by unethical bullyboys.

If the SCO affair was an isolated issue the it would be one
thing but then there are the affairs of asbestos and other
corporate shakedowns which form a long history of
equivalent slime.

It is time the court system developed enough moral ethics
to bring a end to this scam.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Loser Pays???
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 06:38 PM EST
I've seen a few people comment here with comments like "if it were loser
pays, like it should be, we wouldn't be surprised at this." I used to
think loser pays was a good idea, until someone pointed something out to me...

In a system where the loser automatically pays the winner's court costs, it
makes it virtually impossible for an individual to sue a company. Say I'm
injured, for example, by a defective product blowing up in my hand. I think I
have a good case against the manufacturer, so I hire a lawyer to represent me in
court.

If I win, all is good, but in any system, there is always a chance I'll lose.
For the sake of argument, let's say my lawyer's in it only for a cut of the
decision, so I owe him nothing if I lose. But, of course, big Megacorp has
dozens of lawyers on the case. Now, when I lose, I get a bill for all that time
they spent, which could easily go into the hundred of thousands.

Now reverse the situation. Megacorp sues me, with their big lawyer budget. I
don't have that. The tiny amount they have to pay if they lose to cover my
legal costs, over and above what they already spent on their lawyers, is
probably insignificant to them.

Yes, it does reduce the risk of frivilous lawsuits, but it seems to me that the
cost is making it VERY dangerous for a person to sue a company, under any
conditions. It seems to me that neither situation is really that good, and it's
just a choice of one evil or the other.

Am I missing something?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Owning or supplying the internet account CANNOT make you liable for someone else's misuse of it
Authored by: SirHumphrey on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 06:47 PM EST
Otherwise the US Postal Service could be branded a terrorist organisation if
someone successfully manages to have a letter bomb delivered, because they owned
the system that allowed it to happen.

Or if someone decides to copy-cat the Oklahoma bombers and hires a truck for the
purposes of doing so. That would make the truck hire company directly
responsible because they supplied the method of enactment, transportation or
containment. ie, they owned the truck, so therefore they MUST have done the
bombing themselves.

Or mobile phone carriers provide the ability for the transport of messages
resulting in terrorist or criminal acts, so therefore they must have committed
the acts themselves.

No wonder the RIAA withdrew their stupid case. Blind Freddy can see what's wrong
with it.

[ Reply to This | # ]

I am excited about the Linsipre Ubuuntu announcement
Authored by: BigTex on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 07:05 PM EST
From the Press Release:

"What are some of the ways Linspire and Freespire will be different from
Ubuntu?

Here are just a few of the key differences:

*
Linspire and Freespire are designed exclusively for desktop use. (Ubuntu
is also designed to work for servers.)
*
Linspire and Freespire designed their user interface to feel comfortable
for users familiar with or migrating from Microsoft Windows.
*
Linspire and Freespire include proprietary codecs, drivers and
applications for out-of-the-box hardware and multimedia support.
*
Linspire and Freespire are targeted at non-technical users and accordingly
take ease of use to an extreme.
*
Linspire and Freespire fully incorporate CNR throughout. (Ubuntu will be
incorporating aspects of CNR technology in the future.)
*
Linspire is designed to be pre-installed on PCs, with OEMs in mind, and
includes a revenue sharing OEM program.
*
Linspire and Freespire are KDE based (rather than GNOME).

Does this mean the Freespire community will go away?

Not at all. While there will likely be more collaboration between the Ubuntu and
Freespire communities, as we try to address certain core problems together,
Freespire will remain very much a unique project with its own goals, objectives,
and community.

When will Linspire and Freespire move to a Ubuntu baseline?

Work on the changeover will begin immediately. The next versions of both
Freespire (ver. 2.x) and Linspire (ver. 6.x) will be based on Ubuntu."

Some of you may think you need to move on but I will tell you this. I have
struggled to migrate from M$ XP to Suse 10.0 and still do what I need to do. I
have struggled with installing Linux Apps like Parallels and NoMachine so I can
still use critical Windoze apps and the worst part is I am smart but Linux still
it too complicated for the base user who has been weaned on Windoze. Linux will
NOT grab significant desktop market share until it is a easy to use , set-up
& install as Xp or Mac OS X, and has a wide array of printer and hardware
support.

I love the fact that I am almost 100% Windoze free but it has been a huge
effort. Anything that ubuuntu can do to make that easier for other easier I
support. Finally Ubuunto is not selling out, rather Linsipre is now using
Ubuuntu as the base line in stead of Debian.

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One of the few times I will disagree with PJ
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 07:29 PM EST
The court system is a complete joke. If a deep-pocketed organization can come
down on an individual and eat up that person's time, talent, and treasure, the
system that allows the behavior to happen should be VIOLENTLY overthrown.

A government that was established by and for the people and that is no longer by
and for the people should be abolished.

And, please folks, spare me the labelling... I've been here since 2003.

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Sorry PJ, but on this one you are just plain wrong
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 08:00 PM EST
This woman did not win - the attorneys won. Period.

She spent years of her life playing for real in a game the lawyers play just for
money. They got theirs. She gets NOTHING for the life and liberty and
happiness she lost. She gets NOTHING for destruction of her reputation. She
doesn't even get all her attorney fees, and she is STILL subject to a lengthy,
painful, and even MORE expensive appeal by the thugs. This poor woman was just
plain SCREWED. And could be screwed again and again for years to come. The
liars did it once. What ever makes you think the lying thugs won't again?

This woman was put through an infinity of abuses and will not receive even one
PENNY for her time, grief, or destruction of her reputation and she will
continue to be at risk for years to come. The liars and thieves who brought the
suit will keep doing their evil deeds because the court most definitely did
***NOT*** adminster JUSTICE. Not even a wrist slap.

There are currently thousands of cases brought by these same liars all over the
USA - and you're excited because ONE person will have PART of her ATTORNEYS paid
for HER years of pain and grief? That's a crime all right - and the judge is
the perpetrator. I'm left wondering how much he was paid to get the RIAA out of
an embarassing spot - no case, no truth to their claims. If the (paid off?)
judge hadn't saved them, this sordid mess might have gotten to a jury. Here's
how I would have computed the damages, at a minimum:

Cost of CD with the song: $25 bucks, tops. Minimum cost if she had lost:
$250,000. Ratio: 10,000 to 1

Her salary: hard to say, but let's guess the national average of $25,000 or so.
If it had gotten to a jury I was sitting on, I would have voted for a $750
million ($25,000 * 10,000:1 ratio * 3 years of life lost) award to the VICTIM
plus treble punitive damages for the FRAUD perpetrated by RIAA. This is in the
spirit of what RIAA was trying to extort from this and other victims, and
proportional to their own (false!) claims.

Now ***THAT*** would stop the lying thieves in their tracks. It would do more
than fix this ONE case out of 10,000+. It would have fixed ALL of them because
you can be sure that once the RIAA criminals saw the potential damages for
lying, they would pull the plug on EVERY other one of their lying extortion
attempts.

Too bad the judge in this case is yet another who has NO IDEA WHAT THE TERM
"JUSTICE" REALLY MEANS. Sorry PJ but you are just plain wrong. This
woman was screwed.

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Legal Fees? .
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 09:24 PM EST
I know of an individual who quit his job for a small corporation. The
corporation was in the process of being sold and the individual was a
"key" corporate officer. The wealthy owner of the corporation directed
a spiteful lawsuit, in part to extort settlement money to aid in the ongoing
sale of the company without the "key" individual.

But, like the SCO case, as time passed, it became apparent the extortion would
not work as planned. So after five years a non-monetary settlement was agreed
to, the litigation terminated, and the parties went their separate ways.

For the company the legal fees were tax deductible and simply charged off to a
business expense, albeit a stupid one. The law firm enjoyed a lot of work. And
the litigation had little direct effect on the company's owner deep pockets.

But for the individual involved: his entire savings was spent on legal fees. He
had to sell his house and move into a small apartment. His reputation, as viewed
by potential future employer was ruined, making him vitually unemployable at the
level he had worked so hard for. The stress over those five years strained his
marriage to the point of divorce. He continues to be treated for chronic and
deep depression.

For the likes of the RIAA this is just a game. For individuals it is their
life.

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Not Enough Antidote to Go Around
Authored by: Mp3rocks on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 09:24 PM EST
The fact that we need to hold this case up as an example of teh legal system
working justly is evidence that it is sadly still wildly tilted against the
average person. The poison is still coursing madly through the system's veins
and there is unfortunately not enough antidote available to cure everyone.

Still cynical.

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Fantastic article, PJ
Authored by: Ray Beckerman on Thursday, February 08 2007 @ 10:18 PM EST
Fantastic article, PJ. I was profoundly moved by it. I can see that cynicism rules here, but the Capitol v. Foster decision is very important and will have a lot of impact.

1. It makes it clear that the RIAA's "driftnet" strategy, of targeting innocent people in order to conduct an investigation or in order to extract a settlement, is going to have very expensive consequences for the RIAA.

2. It reminds us that merely being the owner of the internet access account to which a shared files folder has supposedly been associated is not a basis for copyright infringement liability.

3. It reinforces the principle that merely making one's computer and internet access available to one's children, or to other relatives, friends, or guests, does not make one liable for copyright infringement.

4. It reinforces the holding of MGM v. Grokster on secondary liability, establishing that the lack of affirmative encouragement or inducement is a complete and total defense.

5. Additionally, the decision will have a great deal of practical impact, as its faultless application of time-honored copyright law principles to strike down the RIAA's unprecedented new legal theories is read by judges, lawyers, and defendants all across the country, who are reminded of the real copyright law as opposed to the RIAA's invented version. Many defendants who were thinking of giving in to the RIAA's extortionate settlement demands will be encouraged now to stand and fight. Many non-copyright lawyers who have been or are being consulted will now realize that their clients do have winnable defenses. Many lawyers who were reluctant to take on these cases, will now jump into the fight. Many judges will be alerted by this decision to the abuse of our judicial system that the RIAA has been perpetrating. The ACLU, Public Citizen, EFF, American Association of Law Libraries, and ACLU of Oklahoma -- all of whom put themselves on the line in favor of this motion -- will be heartened by the judge's wisdom, and by the clear indications that he heard them. They and other organizations like them will be more willing to jump in and fight the RIAA onslaught against regular Americans.

6. Although the RIAA's spin doctors are pretending they are thinking of an appeal, that is bunk. For one, the order is not an appealable order; it is impossible to appeal from it, since it is interlocutory. Secondly, when a final judgment is entered, and an appeal could be taken, there is no imaginable way the RIAA could win an appeal, since the grant or denial of attorneys fees in a copyright case is within the Trial Court's discretion. Thirdly, as a practical matter, it would border on insane for the RIAA to continue litigating the Foster case, since it is now established not only that Ms. Foster is entitled to her attorneys fees as of the time period covered by her attorneys fees motion, but she is entitled to supplement her application for any additional fees. All of the time charges of Ms. Foster's lawyer from this moment on will wind up coming out of the RIAA's pockets, in addition to whatever it has to pay its own lawyers. Fourth, litigating 'reasonableness' of an attorneys fee application is actually a factually complex task, and could easily consume $40,000 to $50,000 in fees on both sides. Fifth, if they litigate this, the whole thing will be public. They could wind up with a public decision awarding $100,000 or more in legal fees if they take this further. I expect them to attempt to settle this matter quietly for a $55,000 attorneys fees payment, with a proviso that the exact amount of the settlement be kept confidential. That's the only way for them to keep their damages manageable.

PJ is totally right.

Chalk one up for the good guys.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Hats off to Judge West
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, February 09 2007 @ 12:49 AM EST
Western Oklahoma may not have very many people but they do have a thoughtful
judge. Kudos.

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A Contrary View
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, February 09 2007 @ 04:05 AM EST
The triumphalism of the anti-copyright lobby here is predictable, but something
seems to be lost...

To me it looks like:-

1. The law was broken
2. It was broken at her house, using her equipment, by someone who was using her
identity.

The contrast with the SCO case, where its becoming increasingly clear to even
the most rabid IBM hater that the law was not broken, is quite striking...

Now this is going to be responded to by a torrent of flames from those who
believe that intellectual property is theft, but never mind: that's irrelevant.
The law is the law, and it says there is such a thing as intellectual property.
Try (but many of you will be unable to) to ignore what the illegal act was and
consider only that one was committed.

For an innocent person being pursued for a crime they had no connection is
clearly abhorrent.

For a guilty person to escape the consequences of their illegal act because it
cannot be shown which one of two associated people committed it is undesirable -
that is why in many legislations you have the concept of being an accessory to a
crime.

For someone to facilitate an illegal act by a deliberate action ("I told
them they could use my gun in the robbery as long as I was somewhere else with
an alibi") is, to me, morally repugnant.

So what we have in this case is the situation where the music industry is trying
to establish law that effectively says that you have a responsibility for a
certain kind of illegal act committed on your property, with your equipment. I
don't think that's entirely a novel concept.

I believe we have laws over here that say that you have a responsibility if you
are the registered keeper of a motor vehicle, and you don't lose *all* that
responsibility of your husband or daughter commits an illegal act with that
vehicle without your approval of that act.


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For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, February 09 2007 @ 02:58 PM EST
99% of the lawyers give the rest of the lawyers a bad name.

krp

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Another case of justice denied
Authored by: Bill The Cat on Friday, February 09 2007 @ 05:00 PM EST
http://PetaKillsAnimals.com/ says:
While we certainly didn't see these "Not Guilty" verdicts coming, we'll give PETA's highly paid lawyers credit for blowing enough smoke and sowing enough confusion to confuse a jury. (That's their job, after all.) But it has now been established in court that PETA, in fact, kills animals. Inevitably, more and more of PETA's naive supporters will get a clue.

---
Bill The Cat

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WShere are the Jeffersons of today?
Authored by: sciamiko on Saturday, February 10 2007 @ 01:50 PM EST
I'm late to this thread, but feel that most of the
comments seemed to missing the point of copyright in the
first place.

First, though, IANAL, nor an historian, nor an American,
nor resident in the USA, so I would welcome any
clarifications where I'm wrong.

My understanding of the history of copyright was that the
law was intended to provide authors with access to a wide
audience, and it did this by protecting the investment of
the distributors (i.e.the printers) in the distribution
medium (i.e. the printing presses, and plates). But in
these days of digital formats and essentially costless
duplication over a world wide network, authors have
immediate access to an immense audience and there is no
investment to protect.

On this theory, what authors really want is protection
from plagiarism, not from copying. So the existing
copyright law is simply out of date.

Where I think things went wrong was when commercial
interests co-opted the medium, and then bribed authors
with royalties into supporting them. A side-effect was
that it became possible to make a fortune from fiction,and
these are the people who can foresee their livelihoods
disappearing.

So far as the courts and lawyers are concerned, they can
work only with the way the law is at the time. It's the
legislators that must be drawn into the debate to make the
changes demanded by the evolution of society and
technology. Something I think Jefferson would have
understood and taken in his stride, but where are the
political giants of today?

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For the Cynics, an Antidote: The Order in Capitol v. Foster
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 13 2007 @ 01:49 PM EST
A number of comments have criticized the US rule that each party to a lawsuit is
generally responsible for its own legal fees, vs. a "loser pays"
system like they have in the UK. This really has nothing to do with copyright -
the US rule is generally more advantageous to the plaintiff, because it allows
the plaintiff to bring a case without having to worry about paying the
defendant's legal fees, other than in extraordinary cases.

Before slamming the rule, remember that the plaintiff is not always the RIAA and
music companies. The US rule is formulated to allow everyone their day in
court. Some might argue that this encourages litigation, but before you condemn
it out of hand, remember that it allows individuals and small companies to bring
lawsuits against large corporations. Without the rule, workers could never sue
Walmart for locking them in stores, patients could never sue Merck for selling
Vioxx and hiding the fact that it causes heart issues, drivers could never sue
Ford for selling Pintos with exploding gas tanks, the programmer could never sue
Microsoft for stealing his code, etc., etc., because if they were to lose their
case (whether on the merits, because they run out of money, etc.), they would go
*bankrupt* paying the defendent's legal bills.

Now, you can argue that some of the foregoing are not meritous cases and the
cynics will argue that the small fry is going to lose any case he or she brings
anyway, but at least the plaintiff does not face automatic bankruptcy merely for
bringing the case.

Under the UK "loser pays" rule, you are going to have a lot less
lawsuits. Maybe that's worth it. But the UK rules is not going to stop the
RIAA from bringing the lawsuits. The record companies probably already spent
$50,000+ in legal fees pursing their case. Having to pay $100,000 instead of
$50,000 isn't going to make much difference to them. It may temper their
approach to some cases, but not much.

[ Reply to This | # ]

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