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Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Monday, November 13 2006 @ 11:43 AM EST

This is an historic day. Let's share it together. You can watch a live webcast of the announcement by going here at 9:30 PST and clicking on the link that says Live Webcast, More. Here's the direct link where you will also find a statement that begins like this:
Sun believes deeply in creating communities and sharing innovations and technologies to foster more participation. Today in a historic move, Sun is opening the door to greater innovation by open sourcing key Java implementations—Java Platform Standard Edition (Java SE), Java Platform Micro Edition (Java ME), and Java Platform Enterprise Edition (Java EE)—under the GNU General Public License version 2 (GPLv2), the same license as GNU/Linux.

You'll find a link on that page to GlassFish source code, which is also going GPL. And here's what the community is saying about this wonderful announcement about Sun choosing to release Java under the GPL.

They are aware of the limited choices for viewing the webcast, RealPlayer and FlashPlayer. They say they "hope to offer open content media format alternatives in the future." That would be great.

Update: I'm watching as I write: a video of Richard Stallman commending Sun, saying they are showing leadership by choosing the GPL, and that he hopes others will follow their lead. At this point, as he points out, Sun is now the leader in donating software code to the community. Truly, the world seems to be turning upside down.

They showed the code on a video screen being released under the GPL, with the GPL license shown at the end. Very cool. GlassFish is dual licensed, CDDL or GPL, as you please. All I can think about as I'm watching everything is: this is fantastic for the desktop.

Now there are various folks explaining how important this is, such as Paul Cormier at Red Hat and Eben Moglen, who points out that Sun is opening hardware specs too. Now they announce the open sourcing of Duke, the mascot, under the BSD, so he's modifiable too.

Now it's Q&A. Jonathan Schwartz is saying that Eben and Richard Stallman were stunned when Sun called them. I'm stunned too. And thrilled. Why did they choose GPL? Because developers love it and understand it and are comfortable with it. So you guys, in that sense, made it happen. They will consider GPLv3 when it's done, by the way, so pundits saying it's GPLv2 only are apparently wrong on that detail.

They are pointing out now that there is no patent risk. They are an IP creator, not just a redistributor, so there is no royalty required to be paid to anybody. By donating code to the GPL, the patent freedom goes with it. Well done, Sun! Well done!

Simon Phipps asks a question from David Berlind, who asks why Sun didn't just donate to the Harmony project under the Apache license. Schwartz says it's a curious thing if IBM is opposing the GPL. Amen.

So, what about Solaris? It's been CDDL. Might that change? Will it go GPL? They are taking a very close look at that right now, and the hint is very likely yes, it could happen.

Bottom line: it's a new day at Sun Microsystems, and it's a new day for the GPL. A truly great day, indeed.

: )

Update 2: A word from Sun CEO Jonathan Schwartz from his blog:

And in closing, I want to put one nagging item to rest.

By admitting that one of the strongest motivations to select the GPL was the announcement made last week by Novell and Microsoft, suggesting that free and open source software wasn't safe unless a royalty was being paid. As an executive from one of those companies said, "free has to have a price."

That's nonsense.

Free software can be free of royalties, and free of impediments to broadscale, global adoption and deployment. Witness what we've done with Solaris, and now, what we've done with Java. Developers are free to pick up the code, and create derivatives. Without royalty or obligation.

Those that say open source software can't be safe for customers - or that commercially indemnified software can't foster community - are merely advancing their own agenda. Without any basis in fact.

They're also fighting a rising tide.

For those who didn't watch, but want to know what it was like, here's the best coverage that I can find, by China Martens on ComputerWorld, because it captures not only the facts but the flavor of the event. And Schwartz explains his thinking here.


  


Sun's Historic Java Announcement | 536 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 11:57 AM EST
first post ?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Corrections Here
Authored by: feldegast on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 12:00 PM EST
If needed

---
IANAL
My posts are ©2004-2006 and released under the Creative Commons License
Attribution-Noncommercial 2.0
P.J. has permission for commercial use.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Off topic threa here
Authored by: Totosplatz on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 12:06 PM EST
Please make links clicky.

---
All the best to one and all.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: DaveJakeman on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 12:09 PM EST
Java is the perfect candidate for open sourcing. It might have saved Sun a
great deal of trouble if they'd done this with Java in the first place. But
that's easy to say with hindsight.

---
I would rather stand corrected than sit confused.
---
Should one hear an accusation, try it on the accuser.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: Stumbles on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 12:25 PM EST
Actually I'm surprised and think it's a good thing. With all the
vacillations they have done over the past several years I was beginning
to think they couldn't make any sort of decision

---
You can tuna piano but you can't tune a fish.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 12:37 PM EST
All the time I've been using OSS I had always thought SUN was going to be the
opensource darling. When SCO started it's lawsuit, for some reason, IBM-Novell
got pushed into that position. IBM's silence about Novell's deal tells
mountains.

With this move, may SUN take it's rightful place. Too bad there was so much
ground lost but thankful that's the past and we can all move forward, together.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Of course to be consistent...
Authored by: jmc on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 12:39 PM EST
SCO should now sue Sun because it's touched their pressshhhuss IP and they own
it......

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun wakes, smells coffee
Authored by: kawabago on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 12:42 PM EST
I think this shows that the business community is starting to understand that
the GPL is the best license to use if you want to get value back from the
community. Congratulations to Sun!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: sef on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 12:52 PM EST

My question is whether they will be dual-licensing it -- making it available (at a cost) under non-GPL terms.

[ Reply to This | # ]

REQUIRES REAL PLAYER -- NOT! --Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 12:55 PM EST
I can not load real player because I can not accept the terms of the EULA.
Guess I'll miss out.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: Tri-Be on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 01:02 PM EST
After the Novell .. thing .. this is a breath of fresh air.

I've always been a bit reluctant to do anything with Java, mostly because of its
proprietary nature. This announcement is definitely a good thing.

It would be extra nice if they GPL'd Solaris too ;-)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: Eric Damron on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 01:03 PM EST
This is perfect timing! Anyone developing web services for the Linux platform
should concider switching to Java. The Novell/Microsoft deal puts the entire
Mono project under a dark patent cloud.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Yay for Debian!
Authored by: alansz on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 01:14 PM EST
Finally, Debian will get java packages into main! :)

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Yay for Debian! - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 10:05 PM EST
Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: enigma_foundry on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 01:24 PM EST
Well, this is slightly surprising, but it is part of market action that I had been discussing with several folks over at TLF and IP Central, making the point that competition happens on many levels. As Schumpeter has noted, economist are over-fixated on price competition, and service and innovation competition happens, too. The more Sun donates, the more it will attract developers. Novell is about to find this out, too.

---
enigma_foundry

Ask the right questions

[ Reply to This | # ]

So much for Mono and .NET
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 01:31 PM EST
.NET was always the answer to a question that nobody asked: how can I get the
benefits of Java and still remain tied to Microsoft Windows? When Sun was
diddling around with almost-but-not-quite-GPL-compatible-Licenses (or ABNQGPL if
you prefer) it might have made some sense as one could argue that using Java was
just a different choice of masters. Not anymore. Now Java offers a real
alternative. You can chose .NET and stay a slave, or choose Java and become a
free man. IIRC, one of the things that Sun got out of their lawsuit with
Microsoft was a really broad patent cross-licensing agreement. I have to
believe that real soon now, Microsoft will pop up and assert that that cross
licensing agreement doesn't give Sun the right to release Microsoft patented
inventions under the GPL. They pretty much have to if they want to save .NET,
and they REALLY want to save .NET because the last thing they want is a boatload
of free, cross-platform applications.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Viral license is end to Micro$oft domination...
Authored by: Eeyore on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 01:44 PM EST
This is one of those times that it might be nice if the GPL really was as
"viral" as it's been FUDDED up to be. If it were, Micro$oft would
either have to pull Java OR GPL Windows.... Baaahahahahaah, all your base are
belong to us. :)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: cventers on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 01:44 PM EST
I'll fully admit that I used to be pretty unfriendly
towards Sun. I was always suspicious of their motives,
even though I knew about projects like OpenOffice.

I have to say that my opinion of Sun has been brightening
quite a bit lately, and it just did by a huge leap today.
It's really fantastic to have a new friend for free
software.

For the record, I'm not a fan of Java as a language. But
all those reasons are technical, and even if Java is one
of the last languages I'd voluntarily choose for a
project, I realize it is important and important to many
people (including Sun) which makes Sun's freeing of Java a
very large move. (And who knows, perhaps under GPL Java
might see improvements to some of the things I dislike :P)

Kudos, ladies and gentlemen. Kudos.

[ Reply to This | # ]

No comment from Stallman on v3?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 01:48 PM EST
It's nice that Richard had some positive words for Sun on this. Sun explicitly
selected version 2 of the GPL for this release. (Yes, I know that version 3 is
not 'official' yet.) They didn't include a clause that said; "or any
future version".

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 01:53 PM EST
I use Java a lot for work, so this is absolutely fantastic news. Thank you Sun!

[ Reply to This | # ]

That is unqualified good news.
Authored by: billyskank on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 01:56 PM EST
The Java Trap has been deactivated. (I only recently learned Java too, and
found I liked it). :)

---
It's not the software that's free; it's you.

[ Reply to This | # ]

A Sound Of Stolen Thunder
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 02:00 PM EST
Hey, everybody!

Oh, this is sweet. I read the post about how this effectively reduces .NET/Mono
to secondary status....

...uh...hold on a sec....

Big companies don't get big by being stupid. IBM figured out the time was right
to go with Open Source. And now, here's Sun doing it.

The reason this is standing out in my mind is the timing is so close to Novell
and it's Faustian bargain. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great, but I'm
wondering if Sun did this because they got wind that Novell was going to pull a
nutty and they saw this as the perfect opportunity to take the lead.

So, anyone know if the timing is coincidental, or are they sending a message to
.NET/Mono?

Dobre utka,
The Blue Sky Ranger

"So, what, exactly, did you do?"
"Exactly what I wanted to do."
-Shark and Fitz
"12 Oz. Mouse"

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 02:07 PM EST
Simon Phipps asks a question from David Berlind, who asks why Sun didn't just donate to the Harmony project under the Apache license. Schwartz says it's a curious thing if IBM is opposing the GPL. Amen.
I don't understand the reference. Is David Berlind from IBM?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Freeing up distros and software....
Authored by: itchytweed on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 02:13 PM EST
IIRC, there were several distro's that wanted nothing to do with Java and
software that used Java because of its "baggage". And I think that may
have affected OpenOffice (which I love! [cheap and shameless plug]) acceptance
in the same way. Sun has gone a long way by taking this huge step. My question
now is, what is going to be the collateral fallout? I know that there has been
at time bad blood between Sun and M$ involving Java and, for the lack of a
better term, M$-Java. The conspiracy theorist in me is wondering if the timing
of the decision/announcement is related to the M$-Novell tryst and to mess with
"heads" of M$ and Novell?

[ Reply to This | # ]

And here's IBM answer
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 02:19 PM EST
After years of internal debates and public calls from IBM to make Java open
source, you would think that IBM would be overjoyed at the news.

Not so.

IBM on Monday issued a statement attributed to Rod Smith, vice president of
emerging Internet technologies in the IBM Software Group, who penned the open
letter in 2004 requesting Sun to make Java open source.

Smith said that IBM supports all open-source licenses approved by the Open
Source Initiative (OSI). But he noted that there are already two projects around
open-source Java.

There is Harmony, a project in the incubator phase at Apache to build an
open-source edition of Java SE. IBM joined the Harmony project shortly after it
was launched in 2005.

"In light of the Apache projects, we have discussed with Sun our strong
belief that Sun should contribute their Java technologies to Apache rather than
starting another open-source Java project, or at least make their contributions
available under an 'Apache friendly' license to ensure the open-source Java
community isn't fragmented and disenfranchised, instead Sun would be bringing
the same benefits of OS (open-source) Java to this significant and growing
open-source community," the statement said.

Sun chose the General Public License, rather than the Apache License, in part to
ensure that there is compatibility with Linux, which is under the GPL, according
to the company.

So, Big Blue not too happy. I wonder why.

[ Reply to This | # ]

It's just a pity...
Authored by: oneandoneis2 on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 02:20 PM EST

...that to get your code into official Sun Java, you have to give it to Sun:

"Sun requires that contributors to all of its Free and open-source projects sign the Sun Contributor Agreement (SCA). . .to ensure that Sun has the rights to use your contributions in products and projects."

As I understand this, if I write some code for Java & let Sun have it, they can then license that code to MS in a completely closed-source, proprietary form.

The only blackspot in what's otherwise a really nice announcement. No more newbies complaining that they can't get Java working with Firefox :)

[ Reply to This | # ]

BBC - "Sun 'releases' Java to the world"
Authored by: Brian S. on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 02:41 PM EST

Java is used in more than 3.8 billion mobile phones, computers and other devices around the world.

The decision to release the code under an open licence means the world can now use, develop and share Java for free..... BBC


I've always felt that this was Sun's "nuclear option".

I'd been waiting for a response to Novell/Microsoft from Red Hat. Is it necessary any more? :)

Novell have doomed themselves to eek out an existence as the poor-mans Windoze substitute in the client/server market.

But, I always did have more faith in Sun.

It may not have been noticed much in the US, but in the weeks leading up to the Patent vote in the EU parliament, Sun were the only large IT Corporate(apart from Red Hat) to campaign in Europe against the adoption of software patents. They even did a tour(over a week) to lobby the politicos, including a visit to Poland whilst they were holding the fort.

EVERY OTHER major IT corporate campaigned in favour of software patents.

Brian S.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: IRJustman on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 02:52 PM EST

Though where does this leave Kaffe, a "clean-room" implementation of the Java Virtual Machine?

--Ian.

[ Reply to This | # ]

GlassFish isn't desktop
Authored by: Tester on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 02:54 PM EST
Glass Fish is the Java EE (Entreprise Edition) for "complex" server
applications. Its not for the desktop, you were probably thinking of project
Looking Glass which was already GPL. Anyways, thanks Sun.

[ Reply to This | # ]

I hope they will dual license OpenOffice.org too!
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 03:21 PM EST
I would love to see, as I imagine others would, OpenOffice.org under the GPL.

[ Reply to This | # ]

IBM wants the code under APL, not GPL...
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 03:28 PM EST
The article states that IBM wants the Sun Java source under the Apache Public
License and not the GPL. By putting the Java source under GPL, IBM will have
problems using that code in the two open source Java projects currently under
the Apache Foundation.

Could this be IBM's business-oriented, corporate mindset shining through -- that
they'd rather have the code under a more restrictive license than GPL for
competitive reasons?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 03:32 PM EST
I can't help thinking this is nothing but a ploy to save themselves when the
truth comes out about their SCO dealings...

Just like M/S they paid "SCO" a wad of cash for something....whats the
bet there is going to be some interesting facts come out about that!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Finally!
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 03:36 PM EST
This was the right move by Sun, and I had long stopped believing this would
happen! I am amazed that this valuable tool is finally open to outside input
(hopefully by collaboration not fork), and I can only hope that Sun will benefit
tremendously from it. I just hope they didn't lose any mindshare to that highly
dubious Mono project by being late to the GPL party ... (the latter sounds like
that kissing disease, fittingly enough)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun CEO Jonathan Schwartz: "Novell-Microsoft deal made us choose the GPL"
Authored by: pipitas on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 04:08 PM EST

Was the infamous Novell:Microsoft deal the last little push that made Sun choose the GPL (instead of another license) for their latest move with opening up Java completely? Yes. At least that's what Jonathan Schwartz (Sun's CEO) says in his blog (emphasizing by me):

And in closing, I want to put one nagging item to rest.

By admitting that one of the strongest motivations to select the GPL was the announcement made last week by Novell and Microsoft, suggesting that free and open source software wasn't safe unless a royalty was being paid. As an executive from one of those companies said, "free has to have a price."

That's nonsense.

Free software can be free of royalties, and free of impediments to broadscale, global adoption and deployment. Witness what we've done with Solaris, and now, what we've done with Java. Developers are free to pick up the code, and create derivatives. Without royalty or obligation.

Those that say open source software can't be safe for customers - or that commercially indemnified software can't foster community - are merely advancing their own agenda. Without any basis in fact.

They're also fighting a rising tide.

Wether or not that indeed was the last push -- at least it is a nice little jab against that "unholy alliance". :-)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Three cheers for Sun
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 04:19 PM EST
---------------
Steve Stites

[ Reply to This | # ]

Could it be....
Authored by: mram on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 04:35 PM EST
That Sun really wants to push OpenSolaris as a credible alternative to Linux?

They needed to do two things to achieve that
1) Gain the support of the community
2) Release Open Solaris under GPL

They have done the first by releasing Java under GPL.
They have FSF by their side, and to gain more support they might even push for
GPL3.

So we would have GPL2 Linux (and GPL3 everything else) on one side, and
OpenSolaris GPL3 on the other....

They would definitely stand a good chance...

So in the end we may end up with Linux with more focus on the embedded market
side, and OpenSolaris with more focus on the desktop / server side.

Anyway, even if all this doesnt happen, I can still very gladly live with GPLed
Java!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: grouch on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 04:40 PM EST

I've griped long and publicly about Sun making announcements that Java would be opened up 'Real Soon Now [tm]'. It looked like just lots of hot air designed to milk the PR for as long as it could be done. I'm happy to 'eat crow' over my cynicism in this matter. Sun did what they said they would do.

Congrats, Sun Microsystems!

---
-- grouch

http://edge-op.org/links1.html

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 04:57 PM EST
Let me start by saying I may be wrong. I'm not a lawyer and this is all license stuff. Sun didn't GPL what most people consider "Java". "Java" in that sense is the API - the library of 1000's of classes that makes Java work. Sun GPLed the following:
  1. JavaSE - the compiler that takes your source code and turns it into something that runs. Free versions have existed for some time from the FSF.
  2. Hotspot - the virtual machine that runs compiled Java code. Again free alternatives available as GPL from the FSF for some time.
  3. Other stuff

If you read the fine print Sun states that the Java API will remain under the JCP process and they have no intention of using the GPL for it.
Don't get me wrong Sun using the GPL is a good thing. I just believe it is more a business move to stop GNU/Linux from basing their development on the GCC/GCJ & Classpath free alternative.
Me? My Java/GCJ code was free last week and will be free tomorrow no matter what Sun or IBM does.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: thombone on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 06:16 PM EST
I literally cried.

This fills me with HOPE I haven't had in a long long time concerning the free
development and sharing of tecnhology.

The closing of operating systems, the DRM, the idea of the user being the enemy
has hung over me like a black cloud, slowing stripping me of the feeling of
excitement and awe I have had since I was a child concerning technology and what
it can do to make the world better.

It may take awhile to sink in for all of us, just how ABSOLUTELY HUGE this
announcement is. The world is going to change forever because of this.

This has just given free software and especially Linux such a HUGE boost that
it's unfathomable. I'm trying to just grasp this, it's SO amazing!

Thank you, Sun. THANK YOU!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun's Historic Java Announcement
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 06:32 PM EST
It's maybe time to take stock of who's doing what. Which corporations believe there is value in the commercial copyright to 'software', and which corporations believe that value lies elsewhere. I'm sure the corporations are intending to sell something for more than the cost of production; that is how they make profits.

Sun, when it comes to Java and Solaris, think there is no value in the commercial copyright. If you want a Sun warranty on Java, or if you want Sun engineers to build you a solution on Java, Solaris, and StarFire, they'll quote.

Sony, when it comes to Vaio, I'm sure they will recommend Microsoft Windows Vista. But when it comes to Playstation, they seem to have commissioned a port of Redhat Fedora Core. I know how Sony intend to make their money on Playstation; they intend to sell video games on the commercial copyright. They know that some people will use Playstations as technical workstations; very good ones, probably; and that Sony will make a loss on those ones. But it will be a minority, and the marketing budget for the video games can carry it. So the money comes from the commercial copyright, but on what Hollywood call 'software'; not the Computer Program kind.

IBM, as I know, sell Solutions. There's an increasing pile of IBM Free Software. IBM distributes IBM Free Software, and not anyone else's. Much safer that way. There is also IBM Commercial Software, stuff like Websphere and Lotus Notes, but that's so expensive that only major corporations can afford it; and you only go for it if you really appreciate the rock-solid IBM warranty.

Microsoft say they sell Commercial Software, and when it comes to Personal Computers that is true. But when it comes to XBoxes, the model is similar to Sony and Playstation. There's a twist, though; Microsoft understand that it takes millions of dollars of investment to make a decent commercial video game, and so there's a significant barrier to entry for anyone who wants to try their hand at that business; and Microsoft would like the barrier lowered, so that there are more XBox games to be had. Their way is to encourage 'bedroom programmers' to write games, share them over the Internet, and improve on each others' work. Microsoft will be selling game development kits, and 'XBox Live' subscriptions, to help with this process. What licence do you expect the 'bedroom programmers' to pick for open collaborative works ? GPL, probably. So we'll have Microsoft making money out of the GPL. Of course, eventually the good 'bedroom programmers' will band together and invest to produce a commercial-quality game, start selling, and we'll be back to value in the commercial copyright.

But there's a big dislocation going on. Some of the corporate participants and sticking to their old positions, and others are shifting ground dramatically. It's public Internet, and games console supercomputers, that drives it. I cannot say 'good', and I cannot say 'bad', but I see it happening.

Progress.

[ Reply to This | # ]

    "Free has to have a price"
    Authored by: overshoot on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 06:38 PM EST
    Yeah, it does. The weekend that fell between Microvell's announcement and Sun's should remind us of that if nothing else.

    Now, who's in?

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    elated
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 07:19 PM EST

    i'm just elated. wow.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    In and Out
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 07:33 PM EST
    Wow !. Player number 9, Ron Novell get an injury and has been replaced by player
    number 10, Jonathan Sun. That's great.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    • In and Out - Authored by: mram on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 07:51 PM EST
    Why MS will never attack Linux head on
    Authored by: belzecue on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 08:02 PM EST
    SCO attacks Linux and instead ends up proving Linux has a clean Unix-I.P. bill
    of health.

    Wallace attacks the GPL and instead ends up proving the GPL is the opposite of
    'restraint of trade'.

    Novell attacks other Linux distros and ends up encouraging Sun to demonstrably
    renew their commitment to the FOSS community by GPL-ing Java.

    Meanwhile, MS continues to avoid those kind of backfires by first embracing
    their enemies...

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    How does this help Sun?
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 08:11 PM EST
    In what ways does this help Sun?

    This isn't a troll - this is genuine curiosity from someone a little clueless
    about Sun's current business. I will say up front that I am probably more on
    the skeptical side - but certainly willing to listen.

    So... how does this help Sun's bottom line?

    1. One could say that it makes endears more free software developers to the
    Java platform.

    Naysayers will say that developers are rooted in the languages and platforms
    they already develop on, and GPL'ing Java won't suddenly result in a groundswell
    of converts - there's got to be a more compelling reason to come on board. Are
    there really that many developers ready to jump on board with Java, just waiting
    for the day Sun sets it free? If so , then that's a great thing!

    2. Let's assume that, yes, it *will* win more converts. Will Sun really see a
    windfall of revenue from this?

    Most Java development I've been privy to uses Tomcat for low-end stuff, JBoss
    for a low-budget project or as dev and QA servers, and for production systems
    use WebSphere, Weblogic (less and less it seems, but it's still prevalent),
    Oracle for hard-core Oracle shops, and occasionally Sun ONE (Netplanet, whatever
    you want to call it). Will this necessarily mean more money going to Sun ONE?

    IIRC, a commonly reported fact a few years ago was that BEA and IBM were taking
    the lion's share of the J2EE app server market, and ironically Sun just wasn't
    making that much money from Java, even back then.

    3. It can be argued that Java has gone as far as it can go under Sun's
    guidance, so GPL'ing it can only help Java's continued growth. So that's good
    for *Java* (and the Java developer/user community), but how is it better for
    Sun, other than not having to spend as much money on continued J2SE
    development?


    So yes, it is a good day for GPL proponents, and I don't mean to detract from
    that. But is it also a good day for Sun (or Sun shareholders)?

    What are your thoughts?

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    IBM's motivations
    Authored by: bdrell on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 08:31 PM EST
    I'm not sure IBM's reaction is completely out of line. It seems they've
    invested a rather large amount of resources into Harmony. It's really not
    surprising that they'd be dissatisfied that Sun released Java under the GPL --
    it effectively kills all other projects, since Sun's Java implementation is the
    best documented and most complete implementation of Java. I don't think it's a
    licensing issue as much as an issue of IBM not particularly wanting all of their
    efforts on Harmony to go to waste. And if that's truly the case, then I can
    understand their frustration.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

      Thanks Sun!
      Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 08:33 PM EST
      Brilliant, absolutely brilliant!

      Thanks Sun, especially for making the licensing terms identical to those of
      GCJ/Classpath. Let the exhange of code and building of a larger community
      start!

      Now, where did I put that Java book? Time to get up to speed with Java again :-)

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      Sun-MS patent covenant
      Authored by: raya on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 08:36 PM EST
      We have had two wildly different FOSS news stories this past week.

      First the bad news, Novell, widely criticised for "selling out" to Microsoft and potentially violating the GPL with a "patent covenant not-a-licence" agreement. Now the good news, with Sun releasing Java as GPL and being widely acclaimed for it.

      What may have been missed in the noise of the Java-GPL celebration is the fact that Sun made its own sellout pact with Microsoft only a couple of years ago. Part of that pact was a "patent covenant not-a-licence" agreement appearing very similar to Novell-Microsoft (with the exception that it is not stated to cover the parties' customers - although it may in fact do so).

      To quote the sun press at the time:

      Patents and Intellectual Property: The parties have agreed to a broad covenant not to sue with respect to all past patent infringement claims they may have against each other. The agreement also provides for potential future extensions of this type of covenant. The two companies have also agreed to embark on negotiations for a patent cross-license agreement between them.
      In common with the Novell case, we have no public information on exactly which patents and products are at issue and there is no published provision for passing the covenant on to downstream recipients (as many are currently arguing is required under the GPL). There is no information (that I can find to date) on this covenant in the information on GPL Java

      The GPL issues regarding patent covenants-not-to-sue would not have been raised at the time of the Sun deal because there was no GPL software at issue - but now there is: Java.

      I have no doubt that Sun's motives are entirely honest in GPLing Java, however that does not mean that Microsoft may not be left holding the same patent trap as they claim to hold from the Novell agreement - as a result of the earlier Sun covenant.

      For some time now, various free-Java-replacement projects have attempted to provide an alternative for those free-software developers who could not accept Sun's previous licence. It is now likely that these projects will wither and die and become increasingly further behind Java itself. It is also likely that free software projects will become increasingly dependent on a full Java implementation - now that there is a free one available. This means that should MS wait a while before springing the patent trap, the alternative Java projects will be dead or no longer relevant/capable. The free software backup plan will be gone.

      For these reasons I believe it is important (whilst not wishing to detract from celebrations of Suns decision) that the Sun-MS patent covenant is subject to the same examination (reported to be in progress) as the Novell-MS covenant to determine the full nature of the patent threat and any GPL-compatibility problems in both cases.

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      A serious question
      Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 08:36 PM EST
      From reading the Sun page, it appears to me that this release includes the JVM,
      Java Compiler, and a couple other things. The HUGE ommission that jumps out at
      me (though maybe I'm reading too much into this) is that, it doesn't appear that
      they are including the standard Java Class Libraries.

      We already have Free JVMs and Java compilers. The thing that's always been
      missing is an implentation of all the APIs for Java. Stuff like SWING.

      Is Sun also releasing the Java Library under the GPL? If not, I'm afraid this
      might not be as important as everyone is gushing on about.

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      Sun puts on their Nuclear Bodice
      Authored by: The Mad Hatter r on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 08:56 PM EST


      And Microsoft had better watch out for Fall Out! This is the equivalent of
      dropping a tactical nuclear weapon on C##. It won't kill it, but it will cause
      the pool of programmers to shrink.

      And the pool of Java programmers will grow. Part of the value of a language is
      the number of developers using it - the larger the number of developers, the
      more valuable it is. Just as the larger the pool of GPL code the more valuable
      the GPL is.

      So the amount of GPL code out there has just surged. The number of programmers
      using Java is going to soar.

      Closed source programmers, and users of other languages will loose.



      ---
      Wayne

      http://urbanterrorist.blogspot.com/

      [ Reply to This | # ]

        The Java Trap
        Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 10:21 PM EST
        So can we say safely this article written by Richard Stallman in 2004 is no longer valid ?

        [ Reply to This | # ]

        • Yes - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 12:35 AM EST
        • And he's happy - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 01:10 AM EST
          • And he's happy - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 06:10 AM EST
        • The Java Trap - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 15 2006 @ 06:54 AM EST
        Maybe if we force Hovsepian and Ballmer to grow ponytails ....
        Authored by: skidrash on Monday, November 13 2006 @ 11:46 PM EST
        comedy rhodium for you, right here on Groklaw !!!!!!

        [ Reply to This | # ]

        Sun came through in the end :)
        Authored by: SilverWave on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 01:40 AM EST
        Wow great news!
        Lets hope they start making money out of this strategy so others see this as the
        way to go.

        ---
        GPLv3: Eben Moglen explalined this well the new DRM clause just says that you
        can't use technology to add restrictions that the licence doesn't allow.
        coriorda

        [ Reply to This | # ]

          Just a few points from a GCJ/Classpath hacker
          Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 02:11 AM EST
          First - Yes this is for real.
          Sun's been fairly honest (for them..) in this whole dealing. They've been
          talking to us and asking us for feedback since they made the first announcement.
          We were even invited to the press conference (yeah, we had forehand knowledge
          about this)

          Second - Don't see this as a loss for us. This is a Big Win. True, we'd rather
          see _our_ class library and VMs become the first Free alternative, but the main
          goal was always to have a Free alternative.

          Now we're getting what we wanted, with the exact license we wanted. We're even
          getting things in the order we wanted. (Because Sun still has to clean up some
          parts of the class-library before they could release that, we were asked in what
          order we'd like to see things released. And that's been pretty much the
          announced order (E.g. the HotSpot VM first)

          Third, I'd like to say that our work has not been wasted. In particular thanks
          to the fact that Sun chose the same license as ours, the Classpath contributors
          are more likely to forward those contributions to Sun's Java. And Sun will be
          needing contributions, since there are parts which cannot be relicensed as Free
          Software as of yet, and for which Classpath already has the equivalent code.

          Anyway, yes. It's a big day for us.

          [ Reply to This | # ]

          We are not open sourcing the Java programming language, nor the platform APIs
          Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 04:47 AM EST
          Q: Are you open sourcing the Java language or the Java SE platform specifications?

          A: We are not open sourcing the Java programming language, nor the platform APIs and specifications, which are governed by the JCP. We're open sourcing Sun's implementations of the Java SE and Java ME specifications.

          But I congratulate Sun and it's still a great day for programmers. - giafly

          [ Reply to This | # ]

          Java Developers to Grow in Number
          Authored by: Simon G Best on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 07:57 AM EST

          I'd never bothered to learn Java, because it was proprietary. Now I'm going to learn Java.

          :-)

          ---
          NO SOFTWARE PATENTS - AT ALL!

          [ Reply to This | # ]

          What about the Kodak patent?
          Authored by: rao on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 09:02 AM EST

          Didn't Sun settle a lawsuit from Kodak related to java? Does this have any impact on end users?

          [ Reply to This | # ]

          Sun's Historic Java Announcement
          Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 10:00 AM EST
          this is great news indeed!

          congrats to sun - I am glad I administer sun and redhat
          boxes.

          I will be recommending java over mono any day. to me mono
          is dead and miguel should get as far away from microsoft's
          ip as he can. that is just a disaster waiting to happen.

          maybe novell should of partnered with sun instead of
          microsoft.

          [ Reply to This | # ]

          Sun's Historic Java Announcement
          Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 01:25 PM EST
          Considering the influential (and wonderful) blogger that PJ is, I recommend that she reconsider using the phrase "intellectual property" or IP, as explained at this GNU project web page.

          [ Reply to This | # ]

          Link to the video
          Authored by: Limulus on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 02:55 PM EST
          Just FYI to anyone who missed it or wants to see it again, its available here.

          Scroll down to "Channels", click "Announcements/Events" and select "Java - Open & Free"

          The viewer is some Flash-based thing, but for most of the clips there are MP4 (video) and MP3 downloads. The first file, "Live Event Coverage" is the entire almost hour-long video (a warning- the MP4 is just over 550 MB!)

          Click the arrow next to "Displaying 1-8 of 15" to see the rest :)

          [ Reply to This | # ]

          What are the benefits of JAVA over "Conventional" languages?
          Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 05:21 PM EST
          As I understand, (or maybe misunderstand) with JAVA one essentially writes the
          code once, and it is interpreted or compiled at runtime using the appropriate
          runtime for the OS being used.

          What is the advantage over this method, as opposed to developing compilers for
          each OS that compile the same source code to an executable that runs on that OS?
          I realize that the runtime method works best for JAVA apps from the web where
          the target OS isn't known ahead of time, but what about software where the
          target OS *is* known, like say for a mobile phone, or other software for
          specific OS's?

          OpenOffice seems to have separate versions for different OS's, and it seems that
          if you go as far as that, you might was well go all the way to the finished
          executable that doesn't need the JAVA runtimes.

          I read about the "portability" of JAVA apps, but I don't understand
          how it's any more portable with having to write multiple runtimes than if you
          wrote multiple compilers.

          Maybe I just don't get the point, but I would really like to understand this.

          [ Reply to This | # ]

          Will they now be known as S N U Microsystems? :) (n/t)
          Authored by: SirHumphrey on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 05:46 PM EST

          [ Reply to This | # ]

          Java and GCJ
          Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 08:33 PM EST
          Previously, I prefer "write once compile everywhere concept" than
          "write once run everywhere concept" due to performance reason. That's
          why I like C++ and QT (www.trolltech.com) instead of java.

          My Question is : Is it posible now to use GPLed sun code and put in GCJ to
          produce native executable that compatible with interpreted java but with better
          performance ?.


          [ Reply to This | # ]

          Sun's Historic Java Announcement
          Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 14 2006 @ 09:04 PM EST
          Bah.. java apps are junk. While it may be a programmers haven because it is not
          machine dependent.. My experience with is that it is resource intensive, buggy
          (graphics not refreshing properly), and very version dependent. My work pc has
          5 different versions of java installed on it.. that is a complete and total
          waste of hard drive space. Ever darn time I turn around there's another java
          application, and sure enough, it needs a slightly different version of the
          runtime environment. 1.2 1.3 1.3.1 1.4 1.5... jeez

          [ Reply to This | # ]

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