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Novell Sells Out
Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 05:55 PM EST

You can read the press release for yourself. Novell is paying Microsoft for its patents, and will pay royalties ongoing. Microsoft in turn promises not to sue individual non-commercial coders or paid coders who contribute to SUSE:
Under the patent agreement, both companies will make up-front payments in exchange for a release from any potential liability for use of each others patented intellectual property, with a net balancing payment from Microsoft to Novell reflecting the larger applicable volume of Microsoft’s product shipments. Novell will also make running royalty payments based on a percentage of its revenues from open source products.

The two companies will work on compatibility, mentioning specifically Novell developing code to support Microsoft's Office Open XML in OpenOffice. Microsoft will push SUSE. HP once again is there in the background, saying this is great. IBM says it is great. Intel. All the corporate dudes who showed up for Oracle's announcement. Obviously there is a corporate dance the community isn't invited to. What? They couldn't get Rob Enderle?

Here's the joint Microsoft-Novell "Letter to the FOSS Community" if you wish to observe the spin about how great this is "for the Linux market". Those of you who think the most important goal is market share will be happy. Those of you who think freedom matters will want to throw up.

Excuse me while I go throw up. I gather Microsoft no longer thinks Linux is a cancer or communism. Now it just wants a patent royalty from it. Wasn't that kinda SCO's dream at first? A kind of royalty on every box sold, every server shipped? Blech. And this "patent promise" is only for SUSE, so that tells the discerning observer that Microsoft will likely be suing others. As for Novell, if history means anything, it will end up Microsoft roadkill. It's so funny to me that nobody ever remembers what comes *after* the Embrace.

Update: The information on Open Office XML from that letter tells us this:

# Office Open XML

* Novell engineers have been working for the last year together with Microsoft engineers through the ECMA TC45 working group in producing a complete specification that would allow for interoperability across office suites.

* Novell will develop the code necessary to bring support for Office Open XML into OpenOffice, and we will contribute that support back to the OpenOffice.org organization. We will also distribute the Office Open XML plug-in in our own edition of OpenOffice. In addition, we will participate in the Open XML Translator open source project.

So that's what has been happening in ECMA TC45. And now we know the rest of the story.

The patent coverage is for Mono, OpenOffice and Samba also:

* Mono, OpenOffice and Samba

o Under the patent agreement, customers will receive coverage for Mono, Samba, and OpenOffice as well as .NET and Windows Server.

o All of these technologies will be improved upon during the 5 years of the agreement and there are some limits on the coverage that would be provided for future technologies added to these offerings.

o The collaboration framework we have put in place allows us to work on complex subjects such as this where intellectual property and innovation are important parts of the conversation.

o Novell customers can use these technologies, secure in the knowledge that Microsoft and Novell are working together to offer the best possible joint solution.

Secure is the very last word I would choose to describe my emotion.

More gruesome coverage in the media:

  • Tom Sanders on VNUnet, Microsoft Gives Novell Linux its Blessing":
    "Microsoft will make a onetime upfront payment to Novell for the cross licensing deal. Moving forward, Novell will pay a fee for each support Suse support contract that it sells.

    Ballmer claimed that Microsoft was unable to provide a broader patent pledge that would cover all Linux distributions because the company is unable to live with the conditions of the general public license (GPL). He also indicated that the company chose to partner with Novell because of the company's large patent portfolio.

    The agreement gives Novell a big advantage over Red Hat, which indemnify its customers against patent claims.

  • PC Magazine's Natali T. Del Conte, "Microsoft to Support Open-Source Linux with Novell":
    "We've made two promises under this agreement," said Brad Smith, senior vice president, general counsel, corporate secretary, legal and corporate affairs for Microsoft. "One is a promise that we won't assert our patents against individual open-source developers. These are individuals that are contributing code, not creating it as part of their job, but acting in an individual non-commercial way. The second is for developers who are getting paid to create code that Novell then takes and inputs into its distribution that is then covered within the open-source agreement between us."

  • Joris Evers and Stephen Shankland, on CNET, "Microsoft makes Linux pact with Novell":
    The companies will create a joint research facility at which they will build and test new products, and work with customers and the open-source community. The focus will be on three technical areas: virtualization, Web services for server management, and Microsoft Office-OpenOffice.org compatibility, the company executives said....

    Money is flowing both ways for the patent agreement, Smith said, including an "up-front balancing payment that runs from Microsoft to Novell, reflecting the large relevant volume of the products that we have shipped and an economic commitment from Novell to Microsoft that involves a running royalty."

  • Stephen J. Vaughan-Nichols on Desktop Linux, "Hell freezes over: Microsoft, Novell partner on Linux":
    It should be noted that while the potential for open-source patent lawsuits has long been recognized, none of any significance has ever been filed.

    As part of the agreement, Novell will pay a running royalty to Microsoft for use of its patents in SUSE Linux. ...Hovsepian revealed that he was the one who had opened the negotiations with Microsoft. He made the first moves in April 2006, not long after he became Novell's CEO.

  • Gavin Clarke in The Register, "Microsoft loves SUSE Linux (true!)":
    Ron Hovsepian, Novell's CEO, apparently called on Microsoft in April by first contacting Microsoft COO Kevin Turner. The price of his Faustian pact? Novell pays an undisclosed royalty to Microsoft amount based on a percentage of revenues until at least 2012 - the deal's expected lifespan. Financial details were not revealed although Hovsepian said Microsoft is putting an "impressive" amount of its own money into the deal. Ballmer sees "upside" for both businesses.

    He sidestepped the question of whether Microsoft would consider a similar deal with Red Hat. He said Microsoft had been in discussion with "a number of players in the industry", but "Ron called and had some ideas about what he wanted to [do] with mixed [open and "proprietary"] source." Hovsepian's thinking "dovetails with what we're thinking about," Ballmer said.

I hate to break it to Ballmer, but SUSE Linux is GPL code, which the two parties may find puts a little pebble in the shoe of this alliance. And on that joint research facility where the companies will "work with customers and the Open Source community," they may get customers, but how will you get anyone from the community to show up? And can Novell please provide us with specificity? Exactly what patents of Microsoft's are being paid for? And precisely where inside SUSE might one find them infringed? As for how wonderful it will be to mix proprietary code with FOSS, anybody see a trend here? Who'd a-thunk it was Microsoft having that dream all along?

The best headline of the day? Dana Gardner's on ZDNET: "Microsoft and Novell: Fox marries chicken, both move into henhouse." I hope all the folks who thought GPLv3 didn't need a patent clause are taking notes.

Update 2: 9:05 PM Eastern - Bruce Perens has an interesting take:

One of the questions yet to be settled is whether Novell will violate the GPL, the license of the Linux kernel and other important software, by offering patent protection that is exclusive to Novell customers. The press release pretty much stated that. On that topic, the preamble of the GPL says it best:
We wish to avoid the danger that redistributors of a free program will individually obtain patent licenses, in effect making the program proprietary. To prevent this, we have made it clear that any patent must be licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all.

Novell has clearly accepted that license. But it appears that they are now out to make patent protection a business differentiator.

Even if everyone were to be protected regarding software that Novell distributes, there's the tremendous collection of Free Software that they don't distribute. A logical next move for Microsoft could be to crack down on "unlicensed Linux", and "unlicensed Free Software", now that it can tell the courts that there is a Microsoft-licensed path. Or they can just passively let that threat stay there as a deterrent to anyone who would use Open Source without going through the Microsoft-approved Novell path. With this agreement, Microsoft also secures Novell's assistance in pushing a pro-Software-patenting agenda in Europe and elsewhere. On a panel that I led at the AlwaysOn conference this summer, Novell's president made clear their support for software patenting - a policy that works to the detriment of any Open Source developer who wants to have users without Novell's blessing. You can be sure they'll be at Microsoft's elbow now in meeting with legislators and asking for increases in patent protection.

Update 3: 9:09 PM Eastern - Eben Moglen confirms that this patent alliance raises GPL issues:

"If you make an agreement which requires you to pay a royalty to anybody for the right to distribute GPL software, you may not distribute it under the GPL," Moglen told CNET News.com Thursday. Section 7 of the GPL "requires that you have, and pass along to everybody, the right to distribute software freely and without additional permission."...

Whether the partnership precludes Novell from distributing Linux depends on precise terms of the agreement that Moglen hasn't seen, he cautioned.

Funny how the corporate guys' lawyers never do grok the GPL until they are in doodoo up to their armpits, like SCO.

*************************

Microsoft and Novell Announce Broad Collaboration on Windows and Linux Interoperability and Support

Companies also announce a patent agreement covering proprietary and open source products

REDMOND, Wash., and WALTHAM, Mass. – Nov. 2, 2006 – Microsoft and Novell today announced a set of broad business and technical collaboration agreements to build, market and support a series of new solutions to make Novell and Microsoft products work better together. The two companies also announced an agreement to provide each others’ customers with patent coverage for their respective products.

These agreements will be in place until at least 2012. Under this new model, customers will realize unprecedented choice and flexibility through improved interoperability and manageability between Windows and Linux.

“They said it couldn’t be done. This is a new model and a true evolution of our relationship that we think customers will immediately find compelling because it delivers practical value by bringing two of their most important platform investments closer together,” said Steve Ballmer, president and CEO of Microsoft. “We’re excited to work with Novell, whose strengths include its heritage as a mixed source company. Resolving our patent issues enables a combined focus on virtualization and Web Services Management to create new opportunities for our companies and our customers.”

Under the agreement, Novell is establishing clear leadership among Linux platform and open source software providers on interoperability for mixed source environments. As a result, Microsoft will officially recommend SUSE Linux Enterprise for customers who want Windows-Linux solutions. Additionally, Microsoft will distribute coupons for SUSE Linux Enterprise Server maintenance and support, so that customers can benefit from the use of an interoperable version of Linux with patent coverage, as well as the collaborative work between the two companies. “Too often technology companies ask their customers to adapt to them.

Today we are adapting to our customers,” said Ron Hovsepian, president and CEO of Novell. “Microsoft and Novell are enabling customers to take advantage of each others’ products where it makes sense in their enterprise infrastructure. We jointly believe that our business and patent agreements make it possible to offer the highest level of interoperability with the assurance that both our companies stand behind these solutions.”

Agreement has broad scope

The two companies will create a joint research facility at which Microsoft and Novell technical experts will architect and test new software solutions and work with customers and the community to build and support these technologies. The agreement between Microsoft and Novell focuses on three technical areas that provide important value and choice to the market:

* Virtualization. Virtualization is one of the most important trends in the industry. Customers tell us that virtualization is one way they can consolidate and more easily manage rapidly growing server workloads and their large set of server applications. Microsoft and Novell will jointly develop the most compelling virtualization offering in the market for Linux and Windows.

* Web Services for managing physical and virtual servers. Web Services and service oriented architectures continue to be one of the defining ways software companies can deliver greater value to customers. Microsoft and Novell will undertake work to make it easier for customers to manage mixed Windows and SUSE Linux Enterprise environments and to make it easier for customers to federate Microsoft Active Directory with Novell eDirectory.

* Document Format Compatibility. Microsoft and Novell have been focusing on ways to improve interoperability between office productivity applications. The two companies will now work together on ways for OpenOffice and Microsoft Office users to best share documents and both will take steps to make translators available to improve interoperability between Open XML and OpenDocument Formats.

“As a result of this collaboration, customers will now be able to run virtualized Linux on Windows or virtualized Windows on Linux,” said Jeff Jaffe, executive vice president and chief technology officer at Novell. “Customers continually ask us how they can consolidate servers with multiple operating systems through virtualization. By working together, Novell and Microsoft enable customers to choose the operating system that best fits their application and business needs.”

The patent agreement enables Microsoft and Novell to address the patent issues between them, which will give customers assurance of protection against patent infringement claims. It gives customers confidence the technologies they use and deploy in their environments are compliant with the two companies’ patents.

As part of this agreement, Microsoft will provide a covenant not to assert its patent rights against customers who have purchased SUSE Linux Enterprise Server or other covered products from Novell, and Novell will provide an identical covenant to customers who have a licensed version of Windows or other covered products from Microsoft.

“Both companies had to think creatively about how to create an intellectual property bridge between the two worlds of open source and proprietary software,” said Brad Smith, senior vice president and general counsel of Microsoft. “This bridge is built on respect for the innovations of each company, the open source community, and a passion for what we can deliver for our customers together.”

Customer and partner reaction

Microsoft and Novell announced the new alliance at an event attended by several customers and partners.

"We applaud Novell and Microsoft in their efforts to provide greater Windows and Linux interoperability,” said Paul Otellini, president and chief executive officer of Intel Corporation. “Customers want solutions that meet their individual needs and higher levels of software interoperability gives them the ability to more easily make the best choices."

“This technology and business collaboration provides a model that allows Microsoft and Novell to develop new solutions to enable open source and proprietary software to work better together in a mixed source environment. We applaud these two companies for doing the hard work to build a bridge between Windows and Linux,” said Shane Robison, EVP, Chief Strategy & Technology Officer, Hewlett-Packard Company.

"IBM is encouraged to see more industry endorsement of mixed source solutions that promote open standards and offer assurances to customers and open communities," said Steve Mills, Senior Vice President and Group Executive, IBM Software. "We are particularly glad to see Microsoft supporting interoperability with the industry standard Open Document Format. Open Documents give customers choice and help unlock broad industry creativity, allowing access to a new generation of innovative applications. Our view continues to be that interoperability and choice are key values that customers demand and deserve."

“SAP has been the first enterprise application vendor to run our apps on Linux, while we have more Windows based deployments than any other platform,” said Shai Agassi, President Product and Technology at SAP. “Today's announcement means that customers can now choose their preferred operating system for each part of their SAP implementation with the confidence that the systems will have strong interoperability and be supported by SAP, Novell and Microsoft - both companies being strong SAP partners”

"One of the key challenges in government is IT interoperability. We commend Microsoft and Novell for their collaboration and their efforts to build bridges in the interoperability area, which will help government to better serve our customers, our business community and our citizens," said Thomas Jarrett, Secretary of the Department of Technology/CIO, State of Delaware.

Good for the open source community

Novell officials noted that one of their priorities in working toward the agreement with Microsoft was making sure that the agreement made sense for the open source community. As part of today's agreement, Novell and Microsoft are announcing three important commitments. First, Microsoft will work with Novell and actively contribute to several open source software projects, including projects focused on office file formats and web services management. Second, Microsoft will not assert its patents against individual non-commercial open source developers and users. And third, Microsoft is promising not to assert its patents against individual contributors to openSUSE.org whose code is included in the SUSE Linux Enterprise platform, including SUSE Linux Enterprise Server and SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop.

"Today's announcement by Microsoft and Novell marks a significant milestone in the adoption of Linux," said Stuart Cohen, CEO, Open Source Development Labs. "By choosing a course of co-opetition, Microsoft acknowledges the critical role that open source plays today in enterprise IT infrastructure. We appreciate the role Novell is playing to help bridge the gap between Microsoft and the open source community. We are glad to see these two companies collaborating to further diminish the legal threat posed to developers and customers by patent assertions. This is good for customer confidence in Linux, good for the open source community, and the broader IT ecosystem."

Additional announcement details

Like many commercial transactions, the financial terms of the agreement are not being disclosed at this time.

Under the technical collaboration agreement, the companies will create a joint research facility and pursue new software solutions for virtualization, management, and document format compatibility. These are potentially huge markets – IDC projects the overall market for virtual machine software to be $1.8 billion by 2010, and the overall market for distributed system management software to be $10.2 billion by 2010 – and the companies believe their investment in interoperability will make their respective products more attractive to customers.

Under the business collaboration agreement, the companies will pursue a variety of joint marketing activities. In addition, Microsoft will annually purchase as part of a resale arrangement approximately 70,000 coupons, with a mix of priority and standard support, for SUSE Linux Enterprise Server maintenance subscriptions. This program enables customers to benefit from the use of the new software solutions developed through the collaborative research effort, as well as a version of Linux that is covered with respect to Microsoft’s IP rights.

Under the patent agreement, both companies will make up-front payments in exchange for a release from any potential liability for use of each others patented intellectual property, with a net balancing payment from Microsoft to Novell reflecting the larger applicable volume of Microsoft’s product shipments. Novell will also make running royalty payments based on a percentage of its revenues from open source products.

The parties are assessing the accounting treatment for the agreements and will provide information as required in the course of their filings with the SEC.


  


Novell Sells Out | 593 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Novell Sells Out
Authored by: mikeprotts on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:12 PM EST
Well it looks like we'll have to stick with the free as in beer AND speech
software.

Can anyone name a company that has benefitted from a Microsoft relationship?
Maybe a bucket manufacturer.

Cheers
Mike

[ Reply to This | # ]

Groklaw Sells Out
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:12 PM EST
What! ActiveX controls on Groklaw? Or am I imagining it?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Doesn't sound terrible... but...
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:12 PM EST
The deal itself doesn't sound terrible but any deal with MS is subject to being
changed.

The patent part is annoying since it just serves to validate software patents.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Corrections (if any) here please
Authored by: nsomos on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:12 PM EST
Those who are familiar with MS have learned to
never trust MS, except insofar as MS does what MS
thinks is best for MS at the moment.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT
Authored by: mikeprotts on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:13 PM EST
I don't use html clickies, but some people prefer them!

Cheers
Mike

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell is not the "Community"
Authored by: entre on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:14 PM EST
This does not change the landscape, freedom is still King
The community will prevail as it is human nature to be free.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Wait...
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:18 PM EST
Novell is paying Microsoft? Not the other way around?

Oops. This deal isn't structured nearly like I thought it was...

MSS2

[ Reply to This | # ]

Pam Jones out of a job?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:20 PM EST
Will IBM and Novell need her anymore, now that everyone wants to play nice?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: skuggi on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:22 PM EST
Expect to see Rob Enderle speaking at next Brainshare hahaha!

---
-Skuggi.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Watch out...
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:22 PM EST

It sounds a lot like the same old M$ tactic of embrace+extend+extinguish.
Suse is going to be Window$-friendly, and Novell is heading for the Gates Trophy Wall, sharing space with all the other corporate roadkill.
Talk of dancing with the Devil...

[ Reply to This | # ]

****...
Authored by: Latesigner on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:28 PM EST
This is no good deal.


---
The only way to have an "ownership" society is to make slaves of the rest of us.

[ Reply to This | # ]

I don't Understand
Authored by: Bitey on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:35 PM EST
So... MS says they won't sue anyone who contributes or uses SUSE as long as they
get money from the Novell's use and support of SUSE Linux? I think I'm going to
puke.

Does that mean that anyone who contributes code to a SUSE distro can have that
same code used in other distros without fear of being sued?

And what does that mean for IBM and Novell's SCO cases? Will the result even
matter anymore when SCO's legal action has been supported by MS and now MS is
getting money for Linux until at least 2012?

Are Novell and MS going to taint SUSE with proprietary MS code for
interoperability. ??? How does this work with the GPL?

I'm so confused... and sick...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: charlie Turner on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:35 PM EST
See the thread "The mind boggles" under the JPEG patent claim
thread OT-Off Topic post for my take on this.
I've been buying (yes, that's right; buying..paying good money
for) every release since SUSE 7.something, and 10.1 will be the last. Ever.
Tomorrow, I will order a brand new shiny
copy of RedHat, and next week, Mandriva, too (gotta wait for the next paycheck).
I was just about to start building a new
mail server with SLED 10; not a chance now. Et tu, Novell???

ct

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: Stumbles on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:36 PM EST
Yep here we go again folks. I love how history repeats itself.

---
You can tuna piano but you can't tune a fish.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:37 PM EST
who are they selling out? novel is a business, and as a business, it makes
sense
to prevent litigation against you. they owe nothing to the comunity exceot the

source code that the gpl requires of them. if the FOSS community expects every

open source driven company to act in FOSS's best interest, we're settign
ourselves up to be disapointed.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:37 PM EST
Yikes!
It's a good thing we have a choice (still).

bj

[ Reply to This | # ]

How is this not a protection racket?
Authored by: Carla Schroder on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:39 PM EST
As old and cynical as I am, I am still baffled and amazed
when things like this happen. I guess it's way over my
pretty lil head....

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell to be assimilated?
Authored by: SilverWave on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:40 PM EST
Or just destroyed?

and they say foss pppl are naive Sheesh.

Sleep with dogs...

---
GPLv3: Eben Moglen explalined this well the new DRM clause just says that you
can't use technology to add restrictions that the licence doesn't allow.
coriorda

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: ine on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:40 PM EST
So Microsoft won't sue *non-commercial* Linux users over MS patents ...

In other words, if you are a commercial user of Linux, there is still the threat
of a Microsoft suit hanging over you?

Do they want coders to use Microsoft-patented technology (which doesn't
necessarily mean that Microsoft invented it, just that they had the bucks and
time and energy to lodge a broad patent application) ... so that Linux will only
be a hobbyist OS - nice for us geeks to play with, but dangerous for commercial
users to deploy?

It seems to me that there may be a small trap here: "We won't trouble
anyone about patents ... until somebody uses FOSS in commercial
enterprises."

Either all users are indemnified, or it is not worthwhile.

I would pay close attention here. The fine print could be interesting.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out - utter rubbish
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:42 PM EST
Perhaps once we've all had a chance to digest this a bit more we'll come up with
some reasoned thoughts rather than crass headlines like "Novell Sells
Out".

The conference call I just watched ended about 30 mins ago, and I still don't
know what to think, let alone issue a formal opionion on a web site for my loyal
fans to gush over.

My initial thoughts are however "so what?". This doesn't effect me
unless I want it to. As a business who is paying for Linux support this could be
a good move. As a consumer end-user/developer it has no effect on me
whatsoever.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: GriffMG on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:42 PM EST
I suppose Novell might have just killed Suse.
Why would they do that? is my first question.

I don't get it.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:46 PM EST
I dunno, folks. It looks like it just got a heckuva lot cheaper for Novell/SuSE
to offer indemnity to its Linux users.

I wonder if this applies to SuSE distro users who haven't actually paid SuSE
anything.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out - They don't understand the GPL!
Authored by: webster on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:47 PM EST
.
Some of this is repeated from under the last article. The broadcast was very
revealing.

Their target is corporate purchasers. Peace of mind is another way of
threatening patent suits.

Novell can't now distribute Linux under patent restrictions. If they distribute
Linux under the GPL, they can't restrict redistribution for any reason. As soon
as they violate the GPL, they and their customers will be in Moglen's sights as
copyright infringers. Patents do not trump the GPL, or the license.

Novell wants to be the only one to distribute Linux without fear of M$ patent
claims. Well they can't distribute Linux without a GPL license to
re-distribute. So they are out of business from the get go if they distribute
by anything but the GPL. Anyone who obtains Linux from Novell can redistribute.
They can't limit to just customers. M$ can not limit Novell's GPL any more
than Novell can. If they understood the GPL, they must have understood the
necessity of freedom to redistribute, and they have waived their claim. They
must know that under the GPL they can not restrict Novell's Linux. The
necessary freedom to distribute implies a waiver of patent claims. What's good
for Novell is good for all.

Too bad they don't see it this way. There will be a lot more work here on GL.
SCO was just the beginning. Monopolies don't go without a fight.

---
webster

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out - Microsoft takes over
Authored by: Hygrocybe on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:48 PM EST
I approach this 'deal' with incredible caution and misgivings. Microsoft has a
filthy record of "partnerships" followed by total destruction of the
partner once it has gained all that it can. For the moment, I view this in a
similar light. The leopard does not change its spots or its underwear
overnight. Anyone who believes that, go back and look at OS/2 and what
happened.

I love SUSE; it is my chief operating system. I did not expect to see it
tarnished like this. To me this so-called 'partnership' is simply another
method of Microsoft's ultimate goal of destroying the competition .....and it
certainly picked the distribution with the best probable future in commerce
because until this happened, I did consider SUSELinux the future major default
business distribution.

Others may see this as a grand plan to bring Linux to the masses......It may
very well turn out that way, but what now makes me want to throw up is that
Novell's Linux package will now have a royalty payment to Microsoft. Well
thanks very much Novell, ... but no thanks.

Disagree with me as much as you like......I really don't care........I just feel
that this partnership has the stench of future damage to Novell's Linux - not to
Linux as a whole, but to Novell. And to Novell I'd tender the following
message: Watch your back !!! The knives are being sharpened right now.

---
Blackbutt, Australia

[ Reply to This | # ]

Not patents in GPL code
Authored by: GLJason on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:48 PM EST
From the GPL preamble:
Finally, any free program is threatened constantly by software patents. We wish to avoid the danger that redistributors of a free program will individually obtain patent licenses, in effect making the program proprietary. To prevent this, we have made it clear that any patent must be licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all.
Later on:
7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.
So if Novell knowingly distributes GPL software without permitting royalty-free redistribution to others, they are violating the GPL and their rights are terminated. Either these patents don't have to do with any GPL code, or the patent licence allows others that receive the code to use it and redistribute it. These patents could be for applications or other software distributed with SUSE, but not the Kernel.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: lsmft on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:55 PM EST
This has occurred only a short time after Oracle/Red Hat is this possibly a
reaction to it?

[ Reply to This | # ]

No, they really don't sell out. Read it.
Authored by: energyman on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:57 PM EST
Where do they talk about paying Microsoft anything?

Where?

And before you attack Novell because of the deal. Why it is worse to
make deals with Microsoft then - lets say Sun, or HP or Oracle?

Before even that, have you read the Novell FAQ?

I really don't think so, because this deal is really good news for the
community:

Form their FAQ:

Q. The press release indicates Microsoft is also pledging not to assert its
patents against individual, non-commercial open source developers.
How is this connected to Novell?
Microsoft and Novell felt it was important to establish a precedent for
the individual, non-commercial open source developer community that
potential patent litigation need not be a concern. Microsoft is excited to
more actively participate in the open source community and Novell is
and will continue to be an important enabler for this bridge. For these
reasons, both Novell and Microsoft felt it was appropriate to make this
pledge for Microsoft not to assert its patents against the
non-commercial community.

So this deal will protect the average developer from getting sued by
Microsoft. Isn't that great news?

All the years there was a lot of uncertainty, that Microsoft might use its
patents against devs without much cash in their backs. And now they
pledge not to sue them.

And that is not great news?

Or this:
Q: What does the patent agreement cover with regard to Mono and
OpenOffice?
Yes, under the patent agreement, customers will receive coverage for
Mono, Samba, and OpenOffice as well as .NET and Windows Server.
All of these technologies will be improved upon during the five years of
the agreement and there are some limits on the coverage that would be
provided for future technologies added to these offerings. The
collaboration framework we have put in place allows us to work on
complex subjects such as this where intellectual property and innovation
are important parts of the conversation.

So samba users and devs, openoffice users and devs and mono users
and devs are safe from Microsoft.

Again, that is not great news?

IMHO you PJ are very, very biased, and pretty unfair against Novell.

[ Reply to This | # ]

First pass at an opinion
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:58 PM EST
I think that what Novell is up to here is kind of like RetHat's indemnification.
Is that needed? Well, I think that a lot of us would argue that, no, it's not.
But it makes some corporate customers feel warmer about buying and using
RedHat. Could be that Novell is trying for the same thing, if people are
worried about Microsoft patents sinking Linux.

More: It could be that Mono makes Novell uniquely exposed to Microsoft patents.
This is something that has worried people for a long time about Mono. So maybe
this lets Novell push Mono without getting sued.

Now, they owned Mono anyway, so this doesn't really change the landscape
compared to the other Linux distros. The only way it would matter is if there
was a killer Microsoft patent that would affect all the distros.

The question that my theory begs: Does this deal only cover the stock distro,
or does it also cover Mono?

MSS2

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:00 PM EST
The way I see it, Windows is rather like a geriatric patient; continuously propped up with anti-viral medicine, but one day likely to catch a bad virus in hospital and die.

I have seen universities handing out 'anti-viral' CDs to all who will take them; no clue what they wanted me to run on my computer, whether they were any different from the Sony CD that made certain alterations.

I have seen large commercial customers insisting on vendors' laptop machines running their antivirus (if they were Windows) before the vendor was allowed to provide on-site service. Big multi-continent operations.

So there is a chance that Microsoft are hedging their bets. Or maybe it's just that Linux is better for the kind of scientific progress that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation needs in their bid to rid the world of malaria.

And the GPL gives freedom for *any* use. Even by monopolistic corporations.

[ Reply to This | # ]

So will Microsoft release it's Windows source code under GPL now?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:05 PM EST
It would seem only fair. And think of how quickly the FOSS community could
correct all the problems.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: david_koontz on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:06 PM EST
So, do we expect a settlement in SCO v. Novell?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Yawn
Authored by: newton on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:07 PM EST
I think PJ is overreacting with her disdain for this agreement (sorry, PJ :-)

We've always known that MSFT wants to use its patents against free software. So an agreement which says they agree not to use patents against Suse and which also leaves them free to use them against folks who aren't Suse represents nothing worse than the status quo if you happen to be one of the folks who aren't Suse.

Furthermore, if MS has also agreed to decline to use its patents against "individual non-commercial open source developers and users", then that gets the developers and users of projects like Samba, Mono, OpenOffice, etc off the hook.

... and, once again, anyone associated with those projects who isn't off the hook (because, say, they happen to be commercial developers) is in no worse position than they were in at 9am this morning.

So I'm reserving judgement on this. At best, it means MS will actually be selling Linux software (god help us). At worst, it's no more odious than what we've already been living with. If you believe the worst case is going to come true, then the announcement must seem more like an irrelevant yawn than a pronouncement of doom.

- mark

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Not status quo - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:16 PM EST
  • Yawn - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:21 PM EST
    • Not exactly - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 07:48 AM EST
  • Not status quo - Authored by: grokker59 on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:59 PM EST
This explains the sudden spike and smack down of SCOX stock price
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:13 PM EST
Heavy trade. An upward spike of about 70 cents for 23 nano-seconds then a
reality-checking smack down to finish the day only 6.2 cents up. And all
occuring shortly after the announcement.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Not time for Chicken Little, just yet
Authored by: papafox on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:19 PM EST
Microsoft and assorted others have been threatening Open Source competitors with
patents for quite a while. This was recognized some time ago and the open
source community has put contingency plans in place.

Most patents are not much of a threat. If somebody is demanding royalties, the
solution is simple - change the code to use a different implementation. Patents
are rarely all-encompassing.

Some patents can be a problem, however. Patents which cover widely used
standards (JPEG, GIF, SMB/CIFS etc) can block any implementation of a standard.
There are two solutions - firstly patent review to (hopefully) invalidate the
patent; secondly, most jurisdictions don't allow a monopoly or dominant player
to use a patent to confirm or extend their dominance. Microsoft, in particular,
would be very vulnerable if it tried to enforce its SMB/CIFS patents against
Samba. A third possible solution is use patents pledged as part of the Patent
Commons negotiate a global license for Linux - but this depends on finding a
pledged patent which Microsoft cannot do without.

So what will happen? Developers will review the list of patents which Microsoft
claims is being infringed. The affected code will be rewritten where possible.
Once the list of infringed patents has been whittled down to a bare minimum the
real fighting will start.

The whole patent system is under global scrutiny. Many governments are
realizing that patents are a 18th-century idea to foster innovation and that in
the 21st-century the concept has failed. These same governments are starting to
realize that open source software presents major advantages both for the
government as a corporate entity and for the nation. They almost certainly will
realize extending the Microsoft monopoly, or even hindering opens source as a
significant competitor to Microsoft is bad policy.

All of this will give support for both challenging Microsoft through
anti-monopoly law-suits and for reviewing the patent system.

The sky is not falling, but will be in for an interesting decade.

[ Reply to This | # ]

My impression: tactics
Authored by: tknarr on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:20 PM EST

My impression is that this is Microsoft's tactical response to Linux. They want to use patents against free software, that much is known. So they come to an agreement with Novell, who are another company that MS can deal with as a company. Now they (or their mouthpieces) can spout some FUD about MS holding patents that might be infringed by free software, then go "Oh, but if you buy Novell/SuSE, that's not a problem because of our agreement.". Meanwile, MS creates a nice migration path from Novell/SuSE Linux to MS-proprietary products. Nobody cares about it since Linux is available, but that's not a problem for MS who can afford to throw money at an unprofitable product.

Once business has committed to the Novell/SuSE path, stage 2 can commence: do unto Novell what they did unto IBM with OS/2, leaving a smouldering hulk where their former competitor/partner used to be. And lo and behold, MS has a nice way out of a dead-end, if you just switch to their products instead of free software. And if you decide to switch to some other free software, there's that club of patent infringement again.

Am I being paranoid and cynical, or just realistic?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Another Fine Project By The Good Intentions Paving Company
Authored by: TheBlueSkyRanger on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:23 PM EST
Hey everybody!

Oh. Joy.

Reasoned response? How's this?

So, in exchange for Novell giving MicroSoft some cash, M$ won't make life
miserable for the community. Isn't this how mobsters work? "It'd be a
pity if something should happen to your production network."

Bobcat Goldthwaith once said, "I don't blame the Japanese for buying up
America. I blame the people that put up the 'For Sale' sign." Mad at M$,
sure. But I'm more mad at Novell for allowing this to go through. And as I've
said before, IBM is nobody's knight in shining armor. They are fighting the SCO
lawsuit because it is in their interest, it has nothing to do with doing the
right thing.

There's an old Polish proverb that says, "Abuse of power should come as no
surprise." Whenever something is a hit with the public, companies try to
cash in. So co-opting this figures.

The two rules I've observed in my relatively short time with the FOSS community
are:

1) You are only as good as your last release

2) Respect the others in the community, even if you disagree with them

The only bright side is Linux will not only live on, but thrive. These
companies aren't part of the community, they're freeloaders. Development and
expansion will continue as it has, because the people who really want it are
behind it. So I'm not worried about Linux itself. Especially because we've
seen what happens when the community galvanizes, and, with the exception of SCO,
this is about as unifying a cause as it gets.

Hmm...MEPIS and Xandross are looking pretty good right now....

Dobre utka,
The Blue Sky Ranger

"We're setting sail to the place on the map
"From which no one has ever returned.
"Drawn by the promise of the joker and the fool."
--World Party
"Ship Of Fools"

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out - And Baby Jesus CRIES!
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:25 PM EST
Remember the last big partnership with Microsoft and a company offering Linux?

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/16/corel.linux.on.ms.idg/index.ht
ml

History often repeats itself.

[ Reply to This | # ]

The good news is
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:30 PM EST
even Microsoft knows that Microsoft upcoming OS is crap.

[ Reply to This | # ]

The dung piles high
Authored by: Carla Schroder on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:32 PM EST
I had to read this a few more times. It is still
mind-bogglingly one-sided:

" Office Open XML
* Novell engineers have been working for the last year
together with Microsoft engineers through the ECMA TC45
working group in producing a complete specification that
would allow for interoperability across office suites."

Wonderful. Microsoft could have used standard XML and ODF.
But noooo- here comes the BorgStandards.

"Under the patent agreement, customers will receive
coverage for Mono, Samba, and OpenOffice as well as .NET
and Windows Server"

Gee, how generous of Microsoft to offer "protection" on
products developed by someone else, and to promise not to
sue themselves over .NET and Windows Server.

" Document Format Compatibility. Microsoft and Novell have
been focusing on ways to improve interoperability between
office productivity applications"

Again, all microsoft has to do is adhere to standards and
not mess with them.

"Both companies had to think creatively about how to
create an intellectual property bridge between the two
worlds of open source and proprietary software"

Duh, the code is there for anyone to use. The creativity
is in conning Novell into going along with it.

Truly this is a case of selling sand to desert dwellers.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:33 PM EST
It's all about mono.

Novell had a huge liabity with MONO. This will indemnify MONO and allow
MONO/.Net developers to develop for both Linux and Windows.

The purchase of Ximian, which included MONO (Miguel's baby) imho was a bad
decision by Novell; this corrects that problem plus adds capability to MONO.

Show of hands for all those with Beagle search installed...

What? Most of us? That's MONO.

Microsoft needed it's .Net to be more widely used to compete with Java, Novell
needed peace of mind for Linux adoption in the Enterprise. Makes perfect
sense.

I'm sure that once we all get the details and see how this plays out in the
future, it won't appear so "Novell Sells Out" and more like PJ's
"With Friends Like These".

Araye

[ Reply to This | # ]

Individual developers don't see details?
Authored by: leopardi on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:34 PM EST
Part of the agreement concerns individual open source
developers. I see two problems: 1. Individual developers
were almost certainly not consulted in the negotiations.
2. (Most importantly) Individual developers will almost
certainly not get to see the full details of the parts of
the agreement which affect them, including definitions.
For example, if I were an individual Samba developer, how
would this affect me? And how would this affect my
employer if they are paying for my involvement in the
Samba project? Or would this make me a "commercial" open
source developer?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Removing Suse
Authored by: StormReaver on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:45 PM EST
I don't have any Novell products running anywhere
(thankfully). If I did, I would rip them out and replace
them with Red Hat.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Removing Suse - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 03:10 AM EST
Here's the underlying framework
Authored by: Hygrocybe on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:46 PM EST
I was just sending this email to a friend and realised I had summed up my
position reasonably well. For what it's worth, here we go:

It is difficult at this stage to be certain just what is going to happen. I
don't think we will fully understand this for a few weeks........and perhaps not
even then. But some things I am sure of:

a. Microsoft knows its SCO funded case is dead......
b. Microsoft knows that in the medium to long term the Linux OS will replace the
Microsoft OS for most functions except gaming, due to Linux's inherent
stability, security and reliability....
c. Microsoft knows that its hold on the word processing market is being steadily
weakened and will ultimately be broken - ergo its major cash cow is
threatened....
d. Microsoft knows that Vista is not going to be the big winner it envisaged -
take up is predicted to be very slow...
e. Microsoft knows it needs alternative income sources and therefore that it has
to be able to get its hands on the Linux income in some way...
f. Microsoft's moves with Novell are designed to secure that income...

Business ethics.......of course.....There is little else to be said.


---
Blackbutt, Australia

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 07:56 PM EST
What else is new? Who didn't see this coming? No surprise here.

That is why I use AbiWord, GTK, and Python. Me, worry? Nope.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:37 PM EST
Novell Sells Out - Proprietizing and Monopolizing Linux through Patent threats
Authored by: webster on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:00 PM EST
:(
The SCO skirmish will be rescheduled and drag along. A new battle is on the
horizon.

Novell is going to have to reassure people they can redistribute GPL code
without restriction. They won't do this and their right to distribute Linux
will be withdrawn and the GPL will be in court. Novell will not indemnify.

Will Novell agree to back it's license, the GPL? Will they protect thier
purchasers from copying and distributing their program as the GPL says they can?
M$ won't let them. Novell has no right to distribute other than the GPL. If
they don't respect that, they can't distribute and to do so violates the
copyrights.

Anyone sued for distributing the "Novell type kernel" will join Novell
in the suit to indemnify. "If I can't distribute, Novell can't
distribute." That's the strength of the GPL.

Novell has to warrant the freedom to distribute under the GPL. Under their
agreement with M$, they probably can't [hope PJ can get it!]. So if they can't
warrant the freedoms of the GPL, they have no right to distribute.

This deal is doomed before it starts.

---
webster

[ Reply to This | # ]

This implies MS patents in SuSE
Authored by: edumarest on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:00 PM EST
and that I don't like.

SCO has claimed Unix is in Linux. Now, as I see it, Microsoft is implying their
patents are in SuSE specifically and in Linux in general. I see this as another
attempt to taint Linux.

Any patented code in Linux and Linus will yank it out as fast or faster than he
coded git. He would tell Microsoft to git, get it?

I posted as a response but would like this comment to be read by everybody. My
apologies.

---
A generation which ignores history has no past and no future.
Robert Heinlein (1907 - 1988), The Notebooks of Lazurus Long

[ Reply to This | # ]

Just in time
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:00 PM EST
HHMmm Ive been considering SUSE lately...
Im afraid I use MP3s on my PC because my Portable Music player doesn support
FLAC or OGG Vorbis
I also watch videos on my PC.
Ive been looking around for a distribution that would let me do those two
things.... I know thats not free but still

I certainly dont want MS Office operability and dont want to pay for it. I fear
this will actuall weaken open office - not strengthen it...
I would rather donate maoney to fight any patents MS had that they tried to
assert against LINUX than pay MS (indirectly) to use them.
So SUSE is now off my list. Ironically it and RED Hat were my choices for a
project at work also .. and Ive now decided Red Hat will be our base.
Im probably not typical. But from my point of view.. this HURTS SUSE - rather
than helps it...
Anyone got recommonndations for a distribution that will let me use MP3s and
watch Videos (and will use my ATI XT800 graphics card) legally but is free (as
in beer) apart from that ? I dont mind paying for these things of course...

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Just in time - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:37 PM EST
  • Just in time - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:43 PM EST
    • Just in time - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 11:25 AM EST
    • Just in time - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:26 PM EST
  • Mandriva One (2007)?? n/t - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:56 PM EST
  • Just in time - Authored by: grokker59 on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 10:33 PM EST
Novell Sells Out
Authored by: belzecue on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:04 PM EST
I've heard that Thursday is the new Saturday.

Is Novell the new SCO?

It seems to me that Novell thinks it has no identity unless it is 'in the club'.
Perhaps Novell is right.

Here are the rules of the club:

1. Sue the members you previously partnered because they hurt your business

2. After a time, once more partner those same members and tell everyone how this
will help your business

3. Loop

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out - OSDL
Authored by: webster on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:16 PM EST
Cohen of OSDL is there in the press release too! Are they cashing in too? I'm
confused? Did he know this has long been in the works? Does this explain some
resistance to the GPLv3?

Does some one want to pay me not to post?

---
webster

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells In???
Authored by: sonicfrog on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:20 PM EST
First reaction? Crap! And I was so looking forward to SUSE 10.2 :-(

This might, might be a very wise move by Novell. I have kept an eye on the
prospects of M$ imminent Vista release. It is almost certain to be a security
nightmare for the first gen adopters. Their "iPod" killer Zune will
launch without video support and doesn't look promising. M$ now has a fallback
position if Vista is the bust I think it will be, and this will give Novell
quite a leg up in the market. The golden years of M$ dominance are coming to a
close and they know it. So does Novell. I guess we'll have to wait and see what
happens next.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Novell Sells Out
Authored by: cjcollier on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:23 PM EST
*shrug*

I appreciate Novell covering my arse... :)

Not that my homies over at Microsoft would sue me or anything for my work on
Mono and Mono.Xna... would they?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Interoperating with one's concubine - OR - Press Conference as Theatre
Authored by: webster on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:24 PM EST
.
M$ is going to try and use this joining as a basis to claim to Europe and
antitrust authorities here that M$ is becoming open and interoperable.

Being interoperable with one's own is not being interoperable with all. Not
being interoperable with all is not being interoperable at all.



---
webster

[ Reply to This | # ]

Mono et al. - Second thought anyone?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:24 PM EST
For the record: I am a SUSE guy and I still am after today. This is why:

The real "watershed moment" was Novell's engagement in Mono. If you
believe this to be a good thing, you might applaud Novell's move now, if not,
you might end up comparing it to excrement.

I made up my mind: I believe it to be a good thing. Ever googled for
'+"cross platform" +"toolkit"' or similar? I did - because
writing cross-plattform software is what I live from. And no: xAMP/Browser is
not a 100% solution - or might somebody tell me how to print cinema tickets (on
specialised hardware) from a browser?

In an ideal world, where Java is free (as in speech) etc. and APIs are 100%
documented, this would be no issue, but in the real world .NET is a reality. It
might be crap (or not), it simply is a reality. And having ".NET for
Linux" is cool. No, it's not only cool: It's a lifesaver.

But: a .NET clone (=Mono) consists of two parts: Having it technically and
having it legally.

AFAI understand, Novell didn't sell out: They traded this missing half of Mono
against what MS wants direst: MS office XML in OOo (To help keep the thumb on
file formats for one more generation) some help in getting the MS virtualization
wagon running etc.

This is not a beautiful trade. Surely not. I would think bad of it in an ideal
world. But I can accept it in the real world.

Novell as MS's roadkill? Maybe. They gambled, I wish them luck. But that's the
beauty of it: If Novell does end up as roadkill - worse for them than for us. It
pops us back to yesterday. So be it.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Pardon my asking at this point
Authored by: jplatt39 on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:33 PM EST
I know I've asked it already. How much choice did they have? Can they stand up
to M$ in an SCO style litigation? Of course Noorda is probably spinning in his
grave but it doesn't look to me like this was something Novell could win.

[ Reply to This | # ]

    Nooo.. wait a minute and think
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:34 PM EST
    MS bought a license from scog. (yuk) Novell has proof this is a bad license
    (really yuk for MS). Now think. How can MS keep novell happy, the EU happy,
    etc... Think vista,... can Novell cause problems? (not security wise MS does
    enough of that on it's own). So now MS is buying time. Redhat does not have
    much if anything to fear (esp. now). I like suse 10 better than XP or others,
    but the lemmings....
    (I am not a troll) - wait think -
    If MS attacks Redhat, all they have to do is ask/dispose? IBM - Novel for MS
    interferance? Lanham big time! ok so now SUSE and REDHAT are on an even footing
    - MS is on the ropes - trying desperately to stay out of court - esp in the
    eu...
    - So think of this as a temporary truce. OK, dont like redhat, just substitute
    your favoite distro... - the same should apply as a defensive strateigy(sp) to
    anyone. Really, enough data/evidence should be available to anyone to form a
    counter claim. MS has been convicted as a monopoly - so they need to be very
    carefull......

    am I wrong? Ianal - so I could be blowing smoke
    comments? ideas?

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    The real story: Microsoft acquires Novell
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:37 PM EST

    Are you really taking all this co-operation nonsense at face value? This
    eventually could allow Microsoft to take Netware out of the reach of Linux, and
    co-opt the Novell brand and pretend it isn't an anti-trust problem.

    It's all just window dressing to really make Novell a Microsoft subsidiary.





    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Tainting code by tainting developers
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:38 PM EST
    I believe that it is Microsoft's intention to taint as much free software as
    possible with their "intellectual property". They have finally found
    a way to throw a spanner in the FOSS works. Anybody at Novell who reads
    Microsoft's code, signs Microsoft's Shared Source contract, etc., or otherwise
    glances at any of Microsoft's secrets and then contributues to Linux or any
    other free software project can taint a free software project with Microsoft's
    "property". Of course this is only required for copyright, patents
    can be sued over regardless of whether there was any forknowledge of the patent.
    But recall also that you're in much worse position when sued over patent
    infringement if there is any sort of forknowledge.

    To prevent this from happening projects must pay close attention to their
    contributors, introducing a layer of overhead into the software development
    process that previously was not there. Not to mention a layer of un-fun-ness.
    Anytime anybody, anywhere, slips up and Microsoft sues MS gets to inject another
    dose of fear, uncertanty and doubt into the FOSS marketplace.

    Notice that it's the adoption of FOSS by corporate backers that makes this
    possible. Your ordinary programmer who works on FOSS projects wouldn't dream of
    looking at MS code or anything else, but the cubicle programmer must, or lose
    his job. After that, he's probably tainted for life and will forever after be
    unable to contribute to certain free software projects.

    I would not doubt this is one prong of Microsoft's strategy behind their
    involvement in Xenworks. If they don't manage to drain enough Xen developer
    resources away from Xen on Linux, they can taint the Xen developers and later
    sue Xen Linux users for using tainted code. I sure hope that the kernel
    developers have procedures in place to prevent this from happening.

    If somebody can prove me wrong I'd love to hear it.

    Karl O. Pinc <kop a t meme d o t com>

    P.S. Microsoft would also so love to kill Red Hat, because it's a pure-play
    FOSS company that never mixes in any proprietary code. I'm sure they'd love to
    see Red Hat's share price drop to the point where Red Hat's ripe for takeover.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: spk037 on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:38 PM EST
    I must say, I am almost heart broken. I've run Suse on my desktop exclusively
    and continously since 9.0 came out.

    I always encouraged other to try it, thinking it had just the right balance of
    user friendliness and hard core workstation/server. And it looked pretty darned
    pretty too.

    Well, I use fedora for my desktop at work to support RH servers. Looks like
    tonight, when I get home, I'll be backing up all my configs and wiping out suse
    and installing fc 6.
    sigh ...

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:43 PM EST
    "IBM says it is great."

    PJ, this is just corporate filler. That's what corporate
    communications teams do. Put a positive spin on anything
    that happens. They don't rush at each other with knives,
    unless they have to.

    This is probably being viewed with shock and anxiety
    up in Armonk. You can bet there are questions flying
    around Big Blue. But it's not the first time IBM has been
    stabbed in the back by a supposedly friendly partner, and
    won't be the last.

    Businesses make decisions out of self-interest. Novell
    might have seen the future economic climate and felt there
    were compelling business reasons why it had to get into
    bed with Microsoft.

    The alternatives might have been worse.

    But if folks at IBM aren't completely roiled and seething,
    it would be surprising.

    The proxy war between Microsoft and IBM will continue..

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:44 PM EST
    This is the old Lando/Vader deal all over again. Nice.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 02:02 AM EST
    Microsoft buys out of SCO/Novell IP mis-exchange
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:54 PM EST

    This deal reminds me of the Microsoft/Apple deal for $1 billion dollars to 'assist' Apple to continue development back in 98(?) Turned out Microsoft had been caught with it's pants down, stealing code from Apple (the streaming movie format code I think) and had made a face saving deal.

    I wonder what Novell caught Microsoft doing? Probably taking SysV code (probably network/filesharing stack seeing the Samba connection) and putting it into Vista or WinXP?

    The OpenOffice plugin deal seems very similar to Microsoft's promise to continue making Microsoft Office for Mac platforms.

    I expect SCO to settle very soon, now that they were caught selling Novell IP to Microsoft (and the CEO to escape to Costa Rica). Soon after SCO should close it's doors.

    How long before Sun pony's up with cash payments and patent exchanges? I'd guess very soon.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Microsoft Desparate?
    Authored by: pgmer6809 on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 08:54 PM EST
    This is the second major announcement from MS re Linux in a month. Anyone remember the XEN announcement? e.g. A story here. For reasons I don't quite 'get' virtualization is a big thing these days. Now in a VM either Linux can run Windows as a guest, or Windows can run Linux as a guest. If Windows is running LInux, it becomes just another app, and we all know what happens to 3rd party apps once MS takes an interest. However if Linux is running Windows, (using XEN or VMWARE) then would it not be possible to define the Virtual Machine in such a way that all of the "Windows Genuine Advantage" spyware etc. is defeated? I.e clone one legal release of windows and re-use it on many machines? (Not saying it would be legal to do so, but technically feasible). So I think MS really want to have Corporations that insist on running Linux, run a flavor that THEY have some control or influence over. After all the IT staff prob don't care which OS is host and which is 'guest'. Novell gets paid, MS gets paid, the IT staff get paid. Everyone is happy. Except the people who care about freedom and started the community in the first place -- but who speaks for them? I agree with the prevailing feeling. I don't know for sure how this will go bad, but I am sure it will. MS have not changed, not one iota in over 20 years. pgmer6809

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:07 PM EST
    I'm just glad that Ray Noorda didn't live to see this. What happens next -
    Microsoft buys Novell, settles with SCO, buys SCO, continues attack on IBM?
    Sick, sick sick. Anony JOhn

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Never bet against "The Doctor"
    Authored by: LaurenceTux on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:10 PM EST
    Dateline Lindon Utah 10/31/2008 09:00
    TSCOG headquarters is put on E-Bay and Bill Gates is watching while the
    combined forces of MoFo and The Nazguls start walking to Redmond Washington.
    Want to bet that a side letter or something has the MoFos doing a few
    soft-swings so that MS doesn't get squished by the Second round? (heck Bill will
    be retired by then anyway)

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    A little history...
    Authored by: Sevenfeet on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:15 PM EST
    What's surprising to me about all this is the fact that Novell and Microsoft are
    doing anything like this at all. Microsoft is the same company it's always been
    with the same management team. But Novell is not the same Novell that in 1991
    made a pact with Microsoft to share technology for personal computer networking.
    At the time, Novell hailed it as a opportunity for them to better have Netware
    work with the fledgling Windows 3.x.

    The problem was that Microsoft had a completely game in mind. They wanted
    Novell's networking knowledge to improve the network stack of not only Windows
    3.x but OS/2, which they would soon dump (and screw IBM in the process). But
    the killer was that the deal allowed Microsoft to make their own Netware client
    for Windows, a piece of software Novell used to make good money on. With
    Microsoft giving it away, Novell took an immediate hit on their bottom line and
    began the long march to irrelevance...that is, before they discovered Linux.

    Enter Microsoft and another deal. Here we go again. IBM never forgot being
    shafted my Microsoft way back when. Novell's management wasn't around in the
    early nineties and now they make this deal at their own peril.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    What happened
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:17 PM EST
    Microsoft's customers went to Microsoft and said "We want to use Linux with
    Windows! Why are you making it so hard for us? We *are* going to use Linux no
    matter what you do. It would be simplest for us to still use Windows for some
    things, but if you're going to thwart us at every step, then that will just
    speed up our migration to a 100% Linux environment, and you don't want that, do
    you? Can't you work with Linux instead of against it?"

    Novell's customers went to Novell and said "We want to use Linux, but we're
    scared Microsoft is going to sue us if we do. Yes, I know you claim the Open
    Invention Network will protect us, but we're still scared. We're not going to go
    all Linux until we know we're safe from being sued. Can't you work with
    Microsoft instead of against them?"

    So Microsoft and Novell got together and worked out a deal that makes both of
    their customers happy.

    That's it. That's the story. If you aren't a Novell or Microsoft customer (and
    don't want to be one), then the landscape has not changed one iota since
    yesterday. Microsoft might have been planning to sue you yesterday. They might
    be planning to sue you today. If you aren't a Novell customer, then you only
    have one new piece of information since yesterday, and that's this:

    There are some things Microsoft wants more than it wants to sue Linux users.

    That doesn't seem all bad.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Watch the Wookie ???
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:26 PM EST
    Why do I get the feeling this a "Watch the Wookie" moment?

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:33 PM EST
    Smooth move for Microsoft.. they get tons of free press just before the launch
    of Vista. Novell has just sealed its fate. I predict Suse (and by extension
    Novell) will now begin the a slow painful death while MS tap-dances on it's
    grave.

    Rule number one. DO NOT make deals with MS.
    Rule number 2. See rule number 1.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    ECMA TC45
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:39 PM EST
    Am I reading this right? I take it that specifications are being developed for
    interoperability of the XML and Office products. If I am right it satisfies at
    least part of the EU problem over specs. This will be written specifications
    instead of the MS "the code is the specification" line. That opens up
    the possibility of other open source developments.

    FWIW - I think Ballmer is recognizing that MS cannot become the sole source for
    the world software needs. Linux will replace UNIX plus feed some markets that
    are very cost sensitive. It will also continue to attract developers who want
    to tune things their way. That provides free research for MS to build on. MS
    will probably continue to dominate on the desktop and in many server rooms
    because the folks making decisions are used to them. The third world may not be
    as inclined to ignore pirated MS products. The net could be the equivalent of
    60% of $10 instead of 90% of $5. Use your own multiplier to get the real
    numbers. ;-) The alternative is the kind of contest where everyone gets wet
    and smelly.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 09:50 PM EST
    None of you see the big plan. First Novell kills SCO, to prove that it owns
    UNIX copyrights etc. Then it sells that to Microsoft for LOTS of money. What
    do you think Microsoft will do then? It will take the same action as what SCO
    did vs Novell, except it will *own* UNIX and have LOTS of money (no risk of
    bankruptcy from legal action unlike SCO). It won't get any competition from any
    major corporation other than probably IBM. Oracle, HP, Novell, etc will all
    side with Microsoft.

    These are greedy corporate bastards, they don't for one single second care about
    the GPL of FOSS. They want to bend and break Linux and FOSS to their own
    commercial needs.

    I give the GPL five years before it's suddenly found to be unconstitional in the
    Supreme court. It'll be ruled invalid, and Linus and Co. will be happily able
    to choose a less freer license like the BSD license, so Linux can be raped by
    corporate interests. Do you think of those improvements will reach the 'peoples
    Linux distributions'? Nope. It'll all be add-on proprietary code, heavily
    hidden from the average user, only available to corporate customers.

    The FSF will not have enough funds to legally challenge a juggernaut like
    Microsoft, especially if the rest of the corporate industry gathers behind
    Microsoft. Linux doesn't stand a chance.

    For a long while now, I've protested against the corporate involvement in the
    Linux kernel. These are the very reasons why. I'd rather a more 'ancient'
    kernel with less features and abilities, than the corporate bastard-child that
    it currently is. I'd prefer freedom.

    Let's hope that the FSF gets HURD running very nicely, porting existing Linux
    open source drivers to run stabily on it and then enough people in the community
    get the commonsense to dump Linux and use the HURD.

    This is further reason to me that the Linux kernel developers MUST move to GPL
    v3 and ASAP. It is also clear to me that Linus is a shill for the corporate
    sponsors now. I've said this before and I'll keep saying it till the cows come
    home. The proof is visible. I urge all responsible kernel developers to either
    release your knew code under the GPL v3 when it's released, or for existing
    code, to re-release it under GPL v3. All it takes is a majority of kernel
    contributors to have the guts to stand up. Linus can then either stop accepting
    patches from pro-GPL v3 developers, or accept it. I personally think he'll get
    Andrew [Morton] to not accept any GPL v3 code.

    Dave

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:06 PM EST
    • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:15 PM EST
    • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:17 PM EST
    IBM?
    Authored by: fb on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 10:24 PM EST
    Seems to me IBM has several dogs in this fight. Hard to imagine them cheerfully
    signing up for a perpetual Microsoft Tax again.

    I'll bet a set of superseded-and-unused SuSE 10 CDs that this Microsoft-Novell
    Kiss of Peace doesn't survive 12 months.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell effectively abandons ODF
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 10:42 PM EST

    Below is from the 11-02 blog entry of Michael Meeks, the primary OpenOffice.org developer at Novell. He's talking about the Microsoft deal.

    What is this Translator ? - it's the early stages of a open-source project to make a standalone bi-directional Open XML to OpenDocument converter. See SourceForge: odf-converter. What is important to me is not the set of design choices here (a standalone XML to XML converter: though that may be useful for other Free software projects such as Beagle, or it's capabilities: a sub-set of Word only so far). What is important is the end-goal of getting substantially better MS Office interop. (with OpenXML) into OO.o.

    Note the part in bold. The important thing for Novell is to get OOo to use Microsoft OOXML, not getting Microsoft Office to support ODF. Also, the odf-converter currently only imports and that poorly. So much for Novell supporting open standards.

    Sold out indeed.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: Sunny Penguin on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 10:47 PM EST
    Next up:
    Lawsuits against Novell for violation of GPL copyrighted works.
    I know at least one developer who will not take this; his code IS included in
    SuSe.
    As for Samba, it is reverse engineered without access to MS code by
    "listening to the wire"; This is the same way Microsoft
    "copied" the IPX protocol from Novell.

    There is more here than we can see now, I believe must Novell have some dirt on
    Vista or the MS/tSCOg connection.

    PJ you need a Grockpop brand of popcorn for the firestorm that is coming.


    ---
    "Numerical superiority is of no consequence. In battle, victory will go to the
    best tactician."
    ~ George Custer (1839-1876)

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:25 PM EST
      • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, November 07 2006 @ 09:07 AM EST
    Novell jumps the shark
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 10:47 PM EST
    Bye-bye Novell. We'll refuse to use or recommend you and Microsoft will eat
    you. Too bad you destroyed SUSE and Ximian in the process, and will likely sell
    the UNIX copyrights on your way out to one of Microsoft's stooges so they can
    waste our time with a SCO part 2.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    We now need a "Burn your SuSe day"
    Authored by: Sunny Penguin on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 10:57 PM EST
    I hope everyone who developed drivers for Suse responds very soon.
    I see no way Novell can allow a MS EULA and comply with the GPL, maybe this is
    what Microsoft is looking for?

    MS either gets free code for Vista and Office, the destruction of a Linux
    distributor or gets to plant patent land mines in open source.

    Then Microsoft will say, "We tried to cooperate but we were hurt by that
    mean old GPL"

    ---
    "Numerical superiority is of no consequence. In battle, victory will go to the
    best tactician."
    ~ George Custer (1839-1876)

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    I see an upside here...
    Authored by: bigbert on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 10:58 PM EST
    Two, actually: 1. M$ "engineers" will be exposed to REAL code -- maybe
    they'll wake up and learn something. 2. The mere fact that M$ has done this deal
    will vindicate Linux in the eyes of the PHB's and (AT LAST!) give us the opening
    to suggest Linux. After all, if it's food enough for M$, it must be OK hey?
    That's a very nice argument to use, and most PHB's are too ignorant to see
    beyond that.

    Yes, I agree that this is probably the beginning of the end for Novell; but
    watch me sneaking in some Debian servers.... "after all, Microsoft saya it
    OK".....

    ---
    LnxRlz!

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell-Microsoft-SCO
    Authored by: clark_kent on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:11 PM EST
    This is interesting...

    Microsoft funds SCO to kick (mainly) IBM, Linux, and Novell comes in to take
    away from SCO what has belonged to Novell all along to support IBM.

    Now Microsoft supports Novell, thus underpinning Linux and Unix, IBM supports
    the whole idea. What becomes of SCO?

    And now Novell and Microsoft will work on ODF, which was largely developed by
    Sun Microsystems.

    And since Microsoft support SuSE Linux, any credibility that Microsoft tried to
    take away from Linux in general, is now being supported.

    This is getting interesting. Me thinks Microsoft knew it was headed for a fall
    and now they have to turn around.

    Any chance the WIN32/64 API will be ported to SuSE Linux which then can be
    hacked on any distro? Any need for VMware on Linux? Enter Mainsoft with WIN32/64
    API for Unix.

    Is Microsoft trying to become a hub of the industry, a peacemaker of sorts
    between SCO, IBM, Novell, Sun, and Opensource?

    Keep a look out! I believe there is more yet to come!

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Post A Comment - Important Stuff
    Authored by: belzecue on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:18 PM EST
    A passionate Topic. Can you hear my teeth grinding all the way from Australia? Grrr.

    Just a reminder, though...

    Post A Comment - Important Stuff:

    * Please try to keep posts on topic, stay polite and ignore trolls, no swearing, foul language or the use of *'s to suggest it.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:30 PM EST
    I believe that anonymous is really talking out both sides of his mouth. He says
    he is pragmatic and wants what is best for his customers, yet he's one step away
    from being in bed with the devil.

    Novell doesn't appear to be able to learn anything from history. Microsoft has a
    history of turning on their partners after they have garnered whatever
    information or technology they want.

    Novell has made one of the worst management decisions in its company history and
    will regret making it.

    I was a paying supporter of Suse, but no longer. My action of not supporting
    Novell will be nothing more than a raindrop in a rainstorm to Novell, but I will
    have the knowledge that I am also not supporting M$ via proxy.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 12:22 AM EST
    Applying a PR BS filter
    Authored by: tangomike on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:31 PM EST
    Okay, this is the marketing hype. Filter it for that and what do I see.

    My take is that Novell gets to sell an accessory (plugin/addon) that enables OO
    to interoperate with Open Office XML, which does have a patented chunk in the
    file header(s). So M$ must think that OO is a big enough threat that they needed
    a camel in the tent. Big whoop. I bet the uptake on the new M$Office will be as
    dismal as Vista. Everybody else won't care, or notice.

    MONO - I don't know enough about it, but it looks to me like Novell is trying to
    save a stupid investment. Apparently by jumping into the shark pool cause they
    can swim there free.

    SAMBA - has been around long enough that M$ will have a tough time making a
    patent claim, in my opinion. Like a lot of other stuff that's been threatened by
    patents, somebody somewhere will make it available if you can't buy it as part
    of a distro.

    Given that Novell is in the midst of fighting a suit funded by M$, I do wonder
    what's wrong with the air and/or water fountains at Novell Corp.

    ---
    Deja moo - I've heard that bull before.


    [ Reply to This | # ]

    First Comment, first thoughts.
    Authored by: Brian S. on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:41 PM EST

    Additionally, Novell also will make running royalty payments to Microsoft based on a percentage of revenue from open-source products....Basically, the agreement ensures that Novell Suse customers are protected against patent litigation from Microsoft.

    At the event, Smith declined to comment whether Microsoft thought that Novell rival Red Hat's Linux distribution violates Microsoft's intellectual property.....

    The deal also will not only pit Microsoft and Novell against Oracle and Red Hat, but also IBM Corp., which was an early supporter of Linux, particularly Red Hat's distribution. Computer World


    There is trouble brewing up between Microsoft and IBM.

    I think this is connected.

    The agreement between Microsoft and Novell gives them a link between their directory services which control corporate networks.

    Some time ago I noticed that IBM had made a large sale of some networking solution in conjunction with Red Hat. At the time, the trade press expressed a little surprise that it didn't involve Novell directory services.

    At the moment I am inclined to think that Microsoft has conceded the standards issue to it's customers and hence it will begrudgingly accept Linux and Open Source - TO A POINT.

    I think that Microsoft/Novell is being lined up against IBM/Oracle/Red Hat.

    I shall have to read up on what they've all been doing.

    Brian S.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:43 PM EST
    I believe that anonymous is really talking out both sides of his mouth. He says
    he is pragmatic and wants what is best for his customers, yet he's one step away
    from being in bed with the devil.

    Novell doesn't appear to be able to learn anything from history. Microsoft has a
    history of turning on their partners after they have garnered whatever
    information or technology they want.

    Novell has made one of the worst management decisions in its company history and
    will regret making it.

    I was a paying supporter of Suse, but no longer. My action of not supporting
    Novell will be nothing more than a raindrop in a rainstorm to Novell, but I will
    have the knowledge that I am also not supporting M$ via proxy.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Hovsepian
    Authored by: belzecue on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 11:51 PM EST
    "Hovsepian revealed that he was the one who had opened the negotiations with Microsoft. He made the first moves in April 2006, not long after he became Novell's CEO. The deal took several months to put together. The bulk of this time, according to Smith, was spent on resolving the legal issues." - link (the Vaughan-Nichols article)

    Seems this was top of his to-do list on becoming CEO.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Bands Sell Out
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 12:12 AM EST
    You people really need to grow up. Bands "sell out". Corporations do
    what is needed to make money. Open source is not a "scene".

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Ongoing royalties?
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 12:24 AM EST
    Hmm, that's gonna make RMS's blood boil - MS getting money for Novell distributing emacs and gcc, and everything else GNU that makes Linux actually useful.

    Well it doesn't impress me thats for sure, as a once-active free-software developer.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    If ANYONE sold out it was RedHat.
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 12:32 AM EST
    Man what are you all a bunch of college kids? If anyone sold out it was when
    RedHat went PUBLIC in 1999! Reaping profits from selling support for Linux!
    zomg!!!!

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Drop the fear and think
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 12:55 AM EST
    This has to be a huge strategic error on Microsoft's part. It is up to us to
    figure out what that error is and to take full advantage of it. But whatever we
    do, we need to avoid letting Microsoft be successful with a clumsy
    divide-and-conquer ploy.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Superb Gamesmanship!
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 02:24 AM EST
    Ah yes, Embrace, Extend, Extinguish....

    It looks to me like MS has bought itself a Linux fork, ala the death of Unix.
    Score 1 for MS.

    If MS provides Novell with codes to allow SuSE Linux to interoperate with (e.g.)
    MS Office XML format. And Novell contributes this to the kernel under the GPL.
    Nothing is broken,...yet. If accepted into the codebase and a couple of years
    later when the MS patent lets, then every Linux varient will have patented
    codes in it. Now, Novell is safe because of their contract. And they have not
    violated the GPL because at the time of contribution there were no patents and
    no conditions on the code. So, only the other distributions are at risk.

    Now, the most likely response will be to remove the offending code from the
    kernel. Big injury to all Linux users except SuSEs' because of the two year or
    so rollback. So, many, besides SuSE clients, will stick with the versions which
    have patented codes in them and pay the royalties.

    And that folks is an irrecoverable fork in Linux. One with a couple of years of
    customers as the installed base and the revised FOSS one for those willing to
    take the hit.

    Pretty move.

    The FOSS community needs to think carefully on their countermove. My top of the
    head thought is to refuse to accept any codes from Novell or its employees or
    ....? How far does it spread? What happens if Novell continues to improve
    their potentially patent containing version while the other distros go another
    direction? Isolating Novell may just accelerate the split.

    Thoughts? Your linux may depend on them!


    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 02:30 AM EST
    Wait... are you saying that when I buy a SuSe box now, a part of my money will
    go to Micro$oft?

    Anyone know a good end-user distro comparable to SuSe?

    For me it's always been the best desktop distro... but I'm not planning to send
    M$ *any* of my money if I can help it.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:19 AM EST
      • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:33 AM EST
    • Novell Sells Out - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:45 AM EST
    This stinks, twice over
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 02:42 AM EST

    So everybody who buys SuSE now has to pay Microsoft for the privilege of running software that Microsoft didn't write? I hope SuSE sales go down the tubes. If (as seems possible) Novell is trying to violate the GPL, I hope it loses in court as quickly as possible.

    But the second way this stinks seems to have been less noticed. It seems that Novell is supporting Microsoft's efforts to promote its "OpenXML" format, i.e. the various proprietary data formats used by Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel et al. That Novell should do this just when the free world was beginning to get some traction with ODF is particularly obnoxious.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Microsoft's true intentions.
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 03:43 AM EST
    I see this as a way Microsoft is trying to avoid demands by EU regulators that
    Microsoft make it's protocols interoperable. The EU wants the protocols and
    secret Microsoft "standards" made public to allow anyone to
    interoperate.

    Microsoft wants to maintain monopoly control by requiring everyone to pay it
    royalties and comply with licensing terms that prevent open source applications
    implementing the protocols, or at least making the licensing so messy that it
    becomes impractical to distribute open source applications implementing them.


    Wait for it - the next step will be that Microsoft tells the EU than it's
    monopoly protocols are no longer a monopoly because Novell has licensed them,
    and others can pay Microsoft for use of interoperability protocols as well if
    the want to. The only problem is that cleverly, NDAs and licensing conditions
    required by Microsoft will prevent open source applications - Microsoft's only
    real competitors at the moment from using them, and Microsoft's ability to
    charge royalties and determine licensing terms will prevent proprietary
    competitors from ever competing with Microsoft.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Novell Sells Out
    Authored by: PolR on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 03:56 AM EST
    Virtualisation, management web services, Office suites and file format
    interoperability, Directory federation. All of this seems pretty inevitable to
    me. Microsoft has agreed to nothing but to what will have to happen anyway while
    Novell saved themselves quite a lot of technical troubles. The technology part
    of the agreement is good news for everyone.

    The patent licensing is more troubling. At first sight it is the cross licensing
    agreements between large patent portfolio holders so common in the industry
    plus some clauses that extend additional protection to individual FOSS
    programmers. From this pespective FOSS programmers should be happy because they
    get something they wouldn't have obtained otherwise. Business dudes probably
    won't look any farther than that.

    But this is a gross misunderstanding how the community thinks. Royalty on
    percentage of revenue based on open source products may be understood as a
    violation of the GPL and this is a big no no. Also the community just hates to
    see its free will work being coopted by proprietary interest like this. There is
    a "liberty or death" clause in the GPL for a reason and Novell will
    soon find out about it.

    This will cost Novell a lot of community goodwill and support. Even if Novell
    and Microsoft have found a loophole in the GPL that will allow Microsoft to
    collect royalties on other people's work, I expect that the FSF will amend their
    GPL V3 draft to close it. I don't expect Microsoft will be able to collect
    royalties from GNU software very long unless Novell forks it all from the latest
    GPL V2 release.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Hovsepian: M$ "tool"?
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:01 AM EST
    "Hovsepian revealed that he was the one who had opened the negotiations
    with Microsoft. He made the first moves in April 2006, not long after he became
    Novell's CEO."

    Not long after he became Novell's CEO? Sounds to me like a case of "time to
    repay the favor". Or maybe I'm just paranoid.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    Remember one thing about OpenXML
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:15 AM EST
    Before I say what that is, let me say that I'm so glad that, after being a very
    happy Suse user from version 6 on, I switched to Ubuntu four months ago. Novell
    have so blown it.

    The point about "OpenXML" is that it is *impossible* in any practical
    way to do a 100% two-way translation between it and *any* open format, OO XML or
    anything else, for the simple reason that "OpenXML" includes closed,
    proprietary, binary, extensions - the definition of important parts of
    multi-component documents explicitly includes M$oft proprietary formats.

    Exporting from Open formats to closed proprietary is easy; the definitions are
    clear, what anyone has to do is at most know how to write *one* method of
    getting the required result in the proprietary format.

    The other direction is the problem. I'd give good odds that even M$oft don't
    have the full definition of what all their proprietary file generators do; and
    to be able to reduce all possible methods of doing particular things to a simple
    clear open format is virtually beyond the wit of Man.

    The practical outcome is clear, if Novell produce something worthwhile. M$oft
    Office is OK as a creator of content - with the Novell code, OpenOffice can read
    M$oft docs. The reverse is *not* true; many OO docs will not be properly
    rendered in M$oft Office, so OO is not OK as a creator of content.

    Result - M$oft wins for another generation.

    What should we do?

    I think the answer is clear. This is a resounding declaration of war on Open
    Source by Novell. We have to fight them as strongly as we have fought SCO.

    Novell is now as much the enemy as Microsoft.

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    • Public Shunning - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 06:23 AM EST
    Monopolstic behavior?
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:45 AM EST
    Can't this move be seen as monopolistic behavior on Micro$ofts part, *even if*
    it's an 'agreement' with Novell 'agreeing'?

    Isn't the government supposed to keep a close watch on such deals and interfere
    when a monopoly threatens to gain too much control?

    [ Reply to This | # ]

      Deja vu
      Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:46 AM EST
      [2004 April 2]
      Microsoft and Sun Microsystems Enter Broad Cooperation Agreement
      http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/apr04/04-02SunAgreementPR.mspx

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      I'm quiet pleased about this announcement
      Authored by: interele on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:47 AM EST
      It's saved me a bit of money. Now I can take all
      my CD-RW's that have Suse on and erase them
      and use them for something else.

      The reason I use Linux in the first place is that
      I trust the software ( to be well written, to give
      me a choice and not to fall over ) Now if I used
      Suse I would always wonder if one day in the future
      something dark and Microsofty will leap out and
      bite me in the bum.

      M

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      Novell Sells Out?
      Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:50 AM EST
      Hm, just wondering. Did Novell pay for the right to distribute GPL code? Or did
      they pay for protection from (unknown) patent liabilities that may occur in the
      future. GPL gives no guarantees of protection against patents held by third
      parties. As they are in no way bound by by the GPL clause that they can't sue.
      The only obligation is for you to license your patents and arguably make a
      reasonable efffort to ensure you don't introduce code that infringes other
      parties patents, as far as they are not already in the wild through the GPL.

      I think people are reading way too much into this. The proof in this case will
      be in the pudding.

      BTW Novell is limiting their patent use to their customers. MS is limiting the
      licensing of their patents and they are in no way bound by the GPL, at least
      I've never heard of GPL'd MS code.

      As for the usual embrace .... strategy, Novel might sirvive, it might not
      survive. But the GPL code will still be there. As will Red Hat, Ubuntu, Debian
      ...
      IANAL, but wouldn't this only become a problem if Novell introduces code into
      GPL software that it knows is covered by Microsoft patent and thus limits
      freedom and violates the GPL?

      Like it or not Novell is a bussiness not a charity.

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      XGL and Compiz
      Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 05:01 AM EST
      seems to me that there is something else at the heart of this whole matter.

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      digg.com link
      Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 05:32 AM EST
      http://digg.com/linux_unix/Novell_Sells_Out

      created to increase public awareness of this article.

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      So fear doesn't sell huh?
      Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 05:43 AM EST
      http://www.novell.com/company/blogs/cmo/?p=12

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      I honestly thought I would never see Microsoft Linux
      Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 05:44 AM EST
      LOL.
      The Microsoft Tax strikes again!!!

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      Novell Sells Out
      Authored by: mwl on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 06:08 AM EST
      I wonder if this is related in any way to Microsoft's recent announcement that
      they're considering pulling their products out of non-democratic countries? Why
      keep losing money on "pirated" software when you can deploy stuff
      that's already free and keep your trademark up front?

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      My view of the issues
      Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 06:26 AM EST
      On one hand this looks like the kind of patent trade companies do all the time.
      No big deal.
      today companies trade patents like kids trade basball cards.

      As a Mono developer, I like the fact that I no longer have any concerns over MS
      IP right. This was not something I ever worried about in the past, but for
      Avalon and WinFX type stuff, it does clear up issues.
      It may also help with some of the non-ECMA classes in .NET (which include
      critical ones like DB and Winforms).
      The Mono C# compiler is GPL, the runtime LGPL, and the classes MIT/X11, so I
      don't think the patent/GPL issues will affect that project.

      I worry that it does not clear users that don't buy from Novell.

      What about people who download Suse for free?

      I dont think this will allow MS to destroy Novell, the GPL community might do
      that, but this will not help MS harm Novell, it is just another patent trade.

      As far as violating the GPL, I don't think it is an issue for Suse because I
      doubt Suse or anyother linux violates any MS patent. I don't think it is for
      Mono because the parts where patent problems woul dmost likly arise are X11, not
      GPL. IT might not be a problem with Open Office because it would be in a plug-in
      (not sure how the licesses would affect that)

      The truth is in the details, and we have not seen those yet.
      Dennis H

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      Microsoft conditions on how open source developers can be employed.
      Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 06:46 AM EST
      Microsoft just can't seem to shake their grubby monopolistic dictatorial habits from any agreement they make. They are now trying to dictate how other companies can employ Open Source programmers. Surely this is a breach of basic civil rights, employment law, and interference with the internal workings of other companies. Microsoft does not have to right to put terms in a contract that states that the programmers that produce specific code Novell uses should not be paid, nor that those individuals cannot distrubute that code commercially (eg. under a dual license) - it is up to Novell or others to pay them if they want to. Requiring that the code used by Novell cannot be produced "by individuals as part of their job" or "in an individual non-commercial way" means the agreement is abusing Microsoft's monopoly by interfering with the freedom of competitors to utilise flexible employment practices such as the very successful practice of open source development which is the only threat to Microsoft's monopoly.
      PC Magazine's Natali T. Del Conte, "Microsoft to Support Open-Source Linux with Novell": "We've made two promises under this agreement," said Brad Smith, senior vice president, general counsel, corporate secretary, legal and corporate affairs for Microsoft. "One is a promise that we won't assert our patents against individual open-source developers. These are individuals that are contributing code, not creating it as part of their job, but acting in an individual non-commercial way. The second is for developers who are getting paid to create code that Novell then takes and inputs into its distribution that is then covered within the open-source agreement between us."

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      [NT] Maybe it's time....
      Authored by: schaste on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 07:29 AM EST
      .. to fork OpenSUSE?

      Steve S

      ---
      - Still working on a signature...

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      A Flood of Muddy Waters
      Authored by: DaveJakeman on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 07:43 AM EST

      In muddy water, the small fish can't see the big fish that's about to snap them up.

      1. If Microsoft were at all sincere about interoperability they would, in this announcement, be dropping Open XML and adopting OpenDocument - a task that would present them no great technical difficulty. The fact that they aren't speaks volumes. They want the waters muddied.

      2. From the FOSS letter:
        "That's right, Microsoft wants you to keep hacking."
        Well, thank you Microsoft, as if we needed your permission before cutting decent code.

      3. So much of the "personality" of an organisation filters down from the CEO. New CEO, new company. You saw it in SCO, now you see it in Novell.

      4. As for Microsoft, there's their [patent?] embrace; we know what comes next.

      5. The SCO protection racket went down like a lead baloon. Microsoft now want to squeeze a few more years out of their monopoly position, whilst holding up a patent threat for those outside their new protection racket. Continuing grounds for FUD, too. SCO messed up, so Microsoft steps into the breach.

      6. Some have criticised gNewSense Linux here - well, now you see what the point is. The pool will get even muddier when the giant steps off the high board.
      Now it's not just coffee I need to clean off my keyboard. Yuk.

      Hope you weren't planning on retiring any time soon, PJ.

      ---
      I would rather stand corrected than sit confused.
      ---
      Should one hear an accusation, try it on the accuser.

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      Patents
      Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 07:55 AM EST
      I wonder who's really getting the patent protection. Based on what is happening
      in the SCO cases so far it looks like there is not much "owned" code
      left in Unix and what is probably belongs to IBM. The MS patents I remember
      were for things that would probably get tossed if challenged. OTOH, no one has
      looked at the MS source code to see what hat they pulled their code out of. I
      assume discovery would get real experts looking at the source code to determine
      who owns what parts. I also assume that could be very embarrasing for MS.
      They will also find that their code base is heavily leaked so even more holes
      are exposed to those folks who consider crashing MS boxes to be great fun.

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      Novell Sells Out... Xgl?
      Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 08:07 AM EST
      Anybody wanna bet this has something to do with Novell's aggressive involvement
      with Xgl?

      MS has always depended on bread and circuses, er, flashy graphics to sell their
      tripe, and here comes Novell and Linux with the flashiest graphics of all, right
      on the eve of the Vista release. I've been wondering for months how MS was
      going to cope.

      Regards, John Kinney

      [ Reply to This | # ]

      What about OpenSuse?
      Authored by: Prototrm on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 08:49 AM EST
      If someone uses the OpenSuse product, are they legally a customer of Novell,
      particularly when no money changes hands? If such a person has no patent
      protection from Novell, does this mean the product will have to fork when Novell
      adds the Microsoft Kool-Aid to its own Enterprise products, or will OpenSuse
      users just have to take the chance of being sued by Microsoft?

      PJ, should you manage to get a copy of the agreement, I think it would be a very
      good idea for you to post a detailed analysis of it to make this whole issue
      clearer.

      All I can say is, I'm glad I've switched to Ubuntu. Suse is going to be the
      "Microsoft Linux" product my mother always warned me about.

      My Sig is now more appropriate than ever, given this news.

      ---
      "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the
      exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

      [ Reply to This | # ]

        Novell Sells Out
        Authored by: Juggler on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 09:09 AM EST
        So now MS is making money off of Linux? Yes PJ, my stomach is turning.

        Not a good way to start the morning...

        [ Reply to This | # ]

        Novell Sells Out
        Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 09:33 AM EST
        The questions raised by Perens and Moglen just prove why the BSD path is the
        better path.

        [ Reply to This | # ]

        Novell Sells Out
        Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 10:57 AM EST
        News at 11. Chciken Little says the sky is falling.

        For years people have sought to push Linux above and beyond its roots. This
        deal may actually help it. Everyone is desperately seeking a catch, an issue, a

        problem.

        What if there isn't one?

        What if this is genuine?

        But unfortunately, bad news sells more copy then good....

        [ Reply to This | # ]

        Show UNITIY OSS / FS!
        Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 03:12 PM EST
        I did a logo, symbolizing unity amongst the two OSS/FOSS-sides:

        http://free-media.org/

        Please keep spreading/using/improving it, to show we stand together!!!

        [ Reply to This | # ]

        aww, this means i'll have to look for a new distro :(
        Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 03 2006 @ 04:34 PM EST
        I'm lazy, i didn't want to switch for years.
        (and yeah, i even bought suse!)

        [ Reply to This | # ]

        Sun, OS X and BSDs are still here!
        Authored by: qu1j0t3 on Sunday, November 05 2006 @ 12:02 AM EST
        For the convenience of their marketing, MS wants to make it seem that choice is
        binary: Safe-MS or FUD-Linux. They're lying, again.

        There is a diversity of vastly superior choices, including OS X, the BSDs and
        (Open) Solaris for businesses, with various levels of support.



        ---
        I have a semicolon and I'm not afraid to use it.

        [ Reply to This | # ]

        Novell Sells Out
        Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, November 05 2006 @ 04:05 PM EST
        Do not forget that Novell never been an open source company in the first place.
        They started to support Linux not because of their generosity or willingness to
        contribute to society.
        The Linux move was a step aside in order to survive. Once their financial
        situation improved they are back on track.
        The only difference between Novell and M$ is that M$ spreading FUD directly in
        order to squeeze money from customers unlike Novell that is trying to do it
        indirectly.

        [ Reply to This | # ]

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