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Reports on the Issues at the EU v. MS Hearings, Day 4 |
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Thursday, April 27 2006 @ 09:48 PM EDT
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I've been looking for sources for reports on the EU antitrust trial, so we don't have to depend solely on media accounts, helpful though they are. Here's the Washington Post's coverage, with a picture of Microsoft's General Counsel, Brad Smith. The BBC also reports the judge who will write the decision, Court of First Instance Judge John Cooke, reportedly asked why Microsoft should have to give up its "commercial information." The BBC quotes him as saying, "The information which forms interoperability is hugely valuable commercial information." Um. Yes. But without interoperability information, EU Commission lawyer Anthony Whelan answered, "the 'super-dominant' position enjoyed by Microsoft prevents its rivals from innovating." I know Microsoft wouldn't wish to put a damper on innovation, that being so close to their hearts. While the BBC reports on what Samba's Andrew Tridgell said at the hearing, "we are ten years behind," one phrase isn't enough for me to understand the issue, so to supplement, I found some press releases and other information from those attending the hearings that go into greater detail.
Samba and the Free Software Foundation Europe have put out a joint press release and the FSFE has a couple of others regarding the EU v. Microsoft hearings that I thought you'd be interested in reading: If you only have time to read one of them, please choose the one about software patents. I reproduce them all for you, so they are all in one place, and I think it gives us a flavor for what's been happening. For even more, here's Georg Greve's blog, and he explains what he understood Microsoft's lawyer to be saying about software patents: As Mr Forrester went on to explain, this documentation was then put into a kind of digital encyclopedia, which is sorted by a method that Microsoft holds a software patent on in both the European Union and the United States (from memory: us patent no 5,968,211). Without a software patent license, the documentation of their protocols cannot be used -- because Microsoft will sue anyone who dares to do so without license.
Software patents indeed played a central role in the closing remarks. Apparently it is Microsofts proof of innovation in this field to hold 4 granted and 3 applications for software patents in the EU, as well as 27 granted and 12 filed elsewhere. He also made another thing plainly clear: "I doubt that each of these could be engineered around!"
Translation: You may be able to force us to document what we do, but we will make sure you cannot read it without being potentially liable to software patent infringement. And even if you figure out how it works, we may try sueing you for software patent infringement in case you dare to interoperate with us without our permission. For the other side of the coin, Microsoft has a section just for this issue, including excerpts from its opening statement at the hearing. Here are their archives. And finally, here's the page where they explain how servers work and how interoperability is "a reality". Except when they have patents they assert or they want the EU Commission to stop making them enable interoperability. ************************************
Samba and FSFE: "Microsoft - obstacle to innovation in the digital society!"
Thu Apr 27 10:58:03 CEST 2006
"Businesses and public authorities have to pay prices that are kept high
by Microsoft's refusal to share interoperability information with its
competitors, as is common practice in the industry," explains Andrew
Tridgell, president and founder of the Samba Team in his presentation on
behalf of Free Software Foundation Europe in European Court today.
Yesterday, Microsoft stated that it had spent 35 thousand person-hours
on documenting that kind of information - and essentially failed.
Tridgell continues "Microsoft keeps claiming that it was asked to show
its source code to competitors, which is absurd. We are exclusively
interested in industry-standard interoperability information, such as
Interface Definition Language (IDL) files commonly used for these kind
of protocols. By our reverse-engineering, we were able to conclude that
the total Active Directory description would amount to roughly 30.000
lines, of which the admittedly best experts of the Samba Team were able
to reverse-engineer 13.000 over the course of six years. These IDL files
easily fit on a single floppy disk and would go a long way towards
providing the interoperability information requested."
"If Microsoft had shared that information when the Commission first
requested it, customers could already find small embedded devices in
stores for around 100 EUR that could offer the Active Directory
functionality implemented in Samba - Microsoft's implementation of these
protocols has hardware requirements ten times bigger. Think of a small
box the size of a router, compared to an entire PC," Carlo Piana, FSFE'S
lawyer on the case continues.
"The prevention of competition by Microsoft to leverage their desktop
monopoly into other areas imposes a stark price on all professional
computer users. Are we really to believe that Microsoft has no idea what
is running on 90% of the computers around this planet so they have to
call in their retired engineers to explain to them the working of
Windows XP?" Georg Greve, president of FSFE summarises. "Enough is
enough. Microsoft should stop playing games with the Commission and the
Court and leave the field of innovation of obstacles to competition and
freedom of choice!"
Microsoft: "Our software patents preclude interoperability"
Thu Apr 27 20:49:11 CEST 2006
Throughout the last two days in European Court, Microsoft tried to
explain to the European Court and Commission its "Blue Bubble Theorem"
about Active Directory Services (ADS) being surrounded by a Blue
Bubble within which interoperability was impossible.
Carlo Piana, Free Software Foundation Europe's lawyer on the case
explains: "The interventions made perfectly clear that the Blue Bubble
only existed in the lawyers' pleadings. Meanwhile, Microsoft left no
doubt as to the legal nature of that Bubble: a conglomerate of 46
patents that it claims it holds on ADS, whose main effect is to
prevent interoperability and, eventually, competition."
So Microsoft maintains that without licenses to these software
patents, which they would strongly object to and essentially referred
to as "expropriation", forcing the interoperability information to be
released might turn out to be irrelevant: Future competitors might
find themselves involved in costly software patent litigation rather
quickly.
"This proves effectively how software patents are fundamentally
opposed to competiton, and thus harm economy and society. In the
European fight about software patents, the proponents tried to make
the claim software patents were about innovation. Today Microsoft once
more demonstrated how they are indeed helping build and maintain
illegal monopolies", Georg Greve, president of Free Software
Foundation Europe (FSFE) said today and continued: "It reminded me of
a 1991 quote of Bill Gates that summarises software patents rather
effectively [1]:
'If people had understood how patents would be granted when
most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents,
the industry would be at a complete stand-still today. The
solution ... is patent exchanges ... and patenting as much as
we can... A future start-up with no patents of its own will be
forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose. That
price might be high: Established companies have an interest in
excluding future competitors.'"
FSFE referred to that quote in a feature article [2] earlier this
week. Greve concludes: "Software patents are limited mini-monopolies
on ideas that should allow to share ideas for the inspiration and
benefit for society. In software they have the opposite effect and
build mega-monopolies."
[1] http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/001447.shtml
[2] http://www.fsfeurope.org/projects/ms-vs-eu/article-20060421.it.html
FSFE: "Microsoft locks in customers and pushes software patents to prevent
competition."
Fri Apr 21 12:37:08 CEST 2006
"Microsoft's software locks in users and now the company is lobbying to get
this lock-in effect legalised by software patents" is the basic message of a
feature article Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE) has published on its
website [1] today.
The article - written by FSFE's vice president Jonas Öberg and FSFE's lawyer
Carlo Piana explains: "Any Business - regardless whether it is a small
startup, a global car manufacturer or a public authority - regularly runs a
net consisting of GNU/Linux-, Unix- and Apple-based machines on the one hand
and Windows on the other. Communication works fine within these two worlds.
But not in between. There, co-operation lacks - not due to a law of nature
but Microsoft does not want Windows to be understood by other operating
systems."
The European Commission at present is trying to force the software giant to
publish interoperability information that allows seamless communication
between these two worlds. FSFE supports the Commission as third party since
the original investigation in 2001. Monday, April 24th a five-day trial - the
longest in European history - starts in Luxembourg.
The outcome of this suit will be seminal for the future information society:
"Developers have been struggling to use reverse-engineering to replicate the
behaviour of a Windows server, but this is a very cumbersome method and it
has its limits: Without proper documentation of the protocols and
specifications, any competitor will always lag behind the company that can
introduce arbitrary changes of the interface language, as Microsoft has been
doing," FSFE president Georg Greve explains. "Software patents could add a
whole new dimension to this problem: Not only would any competitor find
themselves in an extremely disadvantaged position in trying to compete with
the monopoly. If patents are granted on these interfaces, implementing
interoperability constitutes potential software patent infringement.
Competition itself could de-facto become illegal."
So while Microsoft is still fighting to not publish specifications and
protocols to enable equal grounds for competition, at the same time it
lobbies hard to establish a legal basis for the software patents it has filed
throughout the past years. Paradoxically, the same European Commission that
fights so hard to even the grounds for competition in European Court supports
this quest that threatens to make competition itself de-facto illegal.
The feature article points it out: "Even if the company is forced to publish
its secret software protocols or leave key features out of Windows, a
European software patent law might eventually let it stamp out competition
from Free Software. Though two previous attempts at enacting a European
software patent were defeated, Charlie McCreevy, Europe's commissioner for
Internal Markets and Services could well resurrect the project this year."
Translations of this feature article can be found in Spanish, French, Italian
and German early next week.
About the Free Software Foundation Europe
The Free Software Foundation Europe (FSF Europe) is a charitable
non-governmental organisation dedicated to all aspects of Free
Software in Europe. Access to software determines who may participate
in a digital society. Therefore the freedoms to use, copy, modify and
redistribute software - as described in the Free Software definition -
allow equal participation in the information age. Creating awareness
of these issues, securing Free Software politically and legally, and
giving people freedom by supporting development of Free Software are
central issues of the FSF Europe, which was founded in 2001 as the
European sister organisation of the Free Software Foundation in the
United States.
www.fsfeurope.org
[1] http://www.fsfeurope.org/projects/ms-vs-eu/article-20060421.en.html
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Authored by: Nivuahc on Thursday, April 27 2006 @ 09:57 PM EDT |
helpful those they are
helpful though they are
---
My Doctor says I have A.D.D... He just doesn't understand. It's not like... Hey!
Look at that chicken![ Reply to This | # ]
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- Corrections - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 27 2006 @ 09:59 PM EDT
- Redundant - Authored by: golding on Thursday, April 27 2006 @ 10:39 PM EDT
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Authored by: Nivuahc on Thursday, April 27 2006 @ 09:58 PM EDT |
You should know the drill by now
---
My Doctor says I have A.D.D... He just doesn't understand. It's not like... Hey!
Look at that chicken![ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Brian S. on Thursday, April 27 2006 @ 10:20 PM EDT |
Much of the media commentary has been about the Ayatollahs of the EU Court
overuling Commission decisions:
The Commission's power as Europe's
premier competition regulator has already suffered three court reversals in
smaller cases. Another defeat would be a huge blow to its prestige.... Informationweek
Justice or
politics in an EU setting - IMHO
The arguement about protection and
Commission anti-trust rulings in Europe hasn't really been about monopolies.
It's about the EU and companies that are thought of as national
institutions.
Mannesman humiliated in court as Vodafone goes
hostile 19th November 1999
Vodafone has made history with a
world-beating £79bn hostile bid for German group Mannesmannn. The all-paper
offer is 20 per cent higher than the bid rejected out of hand by Mannesmann's
board earlier this week..... The Register
This is the one I first remember.
It comes with
integration and open markets but can be a shock to national audiences. Germany
was upset.
The US has felt it slightly when Daimler took over Crysler but
some of the proposed take-overs would feel aquivalent to a take over of Boeing
by Airbus.
The arguement between the Ayatollahs and the Commission is about
how far to allow "very large" corporates to take over a very large national
industries.
The French pretty much own the UK water supply.
This is all
about competing in a world of globalisation.
The Irish Tax Haven
and Microsoft - IP, IP, IP.
Software,hardware and chemical. Charlie
McCreevy and Ireland fought for software patents, their reputation as an IP tax
haven has damaged and weakened them. Microsoft are their friends and will still
stay in Ireland even if they lose their game of monopoly. Ireland is an IP tax
haven for their patents.
Ireland needs to improve it's reputation with other
nations.
France, Judge Legal and the Ayatollahs.
France is
the most resistive of the countries in the EU to outside corporate takeovers of
their own industries. French Judge Legal called their representative clerks at
the EU Court "Ayatollahs". (As an Englishman I find myself agreeing with him).
But he made himself "polically" unacceptable to the modernising nations(with the
UK at the top).
The EU Commmission, the EU Parliament, the EU Court
and the EU National Governments - Have to touch base with their populations
following rejection of the Constitution and various other political reasons
which I won't go into here, to keep this post non-political.
Sum
total IMHO:
1. The Irish need to restore their reputation.
2. The Court
needs to be seen as impartial.
3. Microsoft aren't taking an EU company
over.
4. The powers that be need to touch base with their constituency.
5.
Microsoft is an undisputed corrupt world champion US
monopolist.
Judge Cooke turns up the heat on
Commission
Day four: Tough questions or tough love?... The
Register
I don't think Bill and Steve stand a
chance.
:)
It's all about politics. Brian S.
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Authored by: kawabago on Thursday, April 27 2006 @ 11:13 PM EDT |
It is difficult to see how a judge could look at Microsoft with any kind of
sympathy since Microsoft has shown such disregard for the law. In fact it's
hard to see how anyone could be sympathetic to Microsoft except the remora
companies that feed of it's wastes.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 12:12 AM EDT |
from the rss article:
Under further questioning from the
terrier-like Judge Cooke Forrester said Microsoft did not believe they could
give information for interoperability without giving away patented
information.
The purpose of a patent is to
publicize the methods techniques... If Microsoft patented it, then the
"patented information" is available to anybody for the cost of copying
the public documentation.
Somebody please tell the EU commission
that MS's complaints about being afraid of giving away patented information
consists of just so much gobbeldygook. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: hardmath on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 12:15 AM EDT |
If Microsoft argues that their server protocols are covered by patents, it is
inconsistent to claim this as grounds for not documenting them. A US patent
registration must include sufficient detail for someone "skilled in the
art" to be able to implement the covered methods.
Failure to have published the corresponding server protocols might then be
grounds for invalidating said patents.
regards, hm
---
I tried carbon dating once, but it made me feel dirty.
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Authored by: darkonc on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 12:15 AM EDT |
(grr: forgot it wasn't my computer)
from the rss
article:
Under further questioning from the terrier-like Judge
Cooke Forrester said Microsoft did not believe they could give information for
interoperability without giving away patented
information.
The purpose of a patent is to
publicize the methods techniques... If Microsoft patented it, then it's
available to anybody for the cost of copying the public
documentation.
Somebody please tell the EU that MS's complaints about
being afraid of giving away patented information consists of so much
gobbeldygook. --- Powerful, committed communication. Touching the
jewel within each person and bringing it to life.. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: inode_buddha on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 01:07 AM EDT |
Understand this: based on decades of observing Microsoft's business behavior,
when they say "interoperability" they mean "interoperates with
other Microsoft products". When they say "innovation" they mean
"We invented it, bought it, etc.,etc.".<p>The technical
implementation , the software behavior, is simply a reflection of the business
attitude. Hence, they see this as an attack on their business, not on their
software.
---
-inode_buddha
Copyright info in bio
"When we speak of free software,
we are referring to freedom, not price"
-- Richard M. Stallman[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 02:52 AM EDT |
I don't think the EC is making it's case as well as it
should.
For example, the justification for unbundling is simple -
it is necessary to break Microsoft abuse of monopoly which
works in this way. It is not simply an issue of customer
convenience, or a simple application issue:
1) Microsoft uses bundling of media players to exclude
competing players from the market.
2) It uses secret protocols (codecs in this case) to
prevent other media players reading the content created
for Microsoft's media player.
3) As a result, in order to access Internet media content,
it is necessary to buy Microsoft Windows.
In order to prevent this abuse of monopoly, it is
necessary to both ensure there are alternative media
players on Windows (to prevent Microsoft blocking access
of media not in the Microsoft secret format from being
accessed by Windows users), and to make the secret
Microsoft protocols public (to allow non-Microsoft users
to access media in Microsoft format). Of course Microsoft
should also have access to other people's secret formats
when these exist in order for there to be a level playing
field.
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Authored by: geoff lane on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 03:03 AM EDT |
Once upon a time, in a universe right here, a company called IBM was hauled up
and accused of preventing smaller companies such as Amdahl from competing
because IBM would not publish interface specifications for peripherals etc on
their mainframe computers.
At the time Microsoft was just a little software
company, but they would advertise against the big companies such as IBM,
claiming they operated in an "ivory tower" environment where the computers and
the users were isolated from each other.
Today, Microsoft is that big
iceburg of a company that protects it's commercial position by preventing others
from competing. There will be no end to the legal challenges because various
other companies find themselves locked out of the market unless they pay the
Microsoft Tax.
--- I'm not a Windows user, consequently I'm not
afraid of receiving email from total strangers.
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Authored by: golding on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 03:22 AM EDT |
I vaguely remember reading a SciFi novel in the early 80's. late 70's, based
around a world monopoly of some such commodity, like medical vaccines/supplies I
think, to the TOTAL exclusion of anybody else being able to market, invent or
sell such items.
I reckon Billy read that novel and thought "Now there's an idea worth
following".
See, even the original premis upon which he built his business was lifted from
elsewhere :-)
---
Regards, Robert
..... Some people can tell what time it is by looking at the sun, but I have
never been able to make out the numbers.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 04:20 AM EDT |
“How many customers said to the Commission ‘I am being forced to buy
Microsoft because of interoperability problems?’ Despite five years of
enquiries, three-and-a-half Statements of Objections, and a variety of different
theories, not one single customer.”
Maybe we should make a list of
customers that have been forced to buy Windows or Active Directory because eg.
Samba was not up-to-par (or considered not compatible enough with Windows). I
bet we easily overcome the 'one single customer'.
Next thing you know
Microsoft will be arguing about that the definition of customer.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 04:22 AM EDT |
Another useful source for details about what happened during the hearings is
Georg Greve's
blog. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: billyskank on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 05:36 AM EDT |
Even if they have to release interface specifications, their patents will
prevent anyone from making use of the information without a licence.
At least until software patents are abolished, which is very far away right now.
:(
---
It's not the software that's free; it's you.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: PolR on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 06:01 AM EDT |
ISTR to have read somewhere that in anti-trust cases, patents shouldn't be an
anti-competitive weapon and should never stand in the way of a remedy. If they
do, the need to impose a remedy trumps the patent owner's rigths. The argument
"you can't touch our patents, that would harm our company" seems moot.
IANAL and my past readings might not apply to EU law so I may be wrong.
On the other hand I find interesting that Microsoft admits publicly software
patents will be used to do all that harm that was predicted. This will come
handy in future public patent policy debates.
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Authored by: psgj on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 11:50 AM EDT |
According to the article:
<blockquote>Microsoft holds a software patent on in both the European
Union and the United States (from memory: us patent no 5,968,211). Without a
software patent license, the documentation of their protocols cannot be used --
because Microsoft will sue anyone who dares to do so without license.
Software patents indeed played a central role in the closing remarks. Apparently
it is Microsofts proof of innovation in this field to hold 4 granted and 3
applications for software patents in the EU
</blockquote>
I thought that the EU had successfully stopped software patents. Did they
finally slip through while nobody was paying attention?
Patrick Jacobs[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 12:33 PM EDT |
I thought that a patent had to descibe an invetion to the point that a
knowlegable person could recreate the invention?
If they have a patent on the technology, then the patent should be desciptive
enough for interoperability, then the EU can solve this issue by forcing MS to
license the patent to all comers.
If it is not desriptive enough for someone like Andrew Trigell to create an
interoperable system then the patent is invalid.
Any patent lawyers care to comment?[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 28 2006 @ 03:25 PM EDT |
"Except when they have patents they assert or they want the EU Commission
to stop making them enable interoperability."
But I thought software patents were not recognized by the EU and therefore any
argument in EU involving patents should be null issues. Interpreting this -
SAMBA should be available in EU, at least until EU passes SW patents, and even
so, a patent granted in EU would be after the fact in the EU, and so any
infringement of pre-existing software should be exempt.
Now, if MS gets SW patents in EU in time for WINFS, then watch out!!!!
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