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Women in Free Software, by Fernanda G. Weiden |
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Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 08:00 PM EDT
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Why aren't there more women involved in technology? Back in July, when we wrote about David Wheeler's account of his trip to Brazil's 6th International Free Software Conference (FISL 6.0), he specifically mentioned meeting Fernanda G. Weiden there and how successful she has been in getting women there involved. I contacted her and asked if she'd be willing to explain to us why she thinks there are so few women in software development and what can be done to improve the numbers. What is her secret?
Fernanda is a Free Software developer at the IBM Linux Technology Center in Brazil, and she
also works maintaining some packages for Debian. She is
involved in the Debian Women project and also founded in Brazil the
"Projeto Software Livre Mulheres". She is
also a member of the Free Software Foundation's Latin American team. She was the first woman to get Red Hat certified in Linux in Brazil. Here is the Debian women's profiles page, where more women developers give advice to other women on how to get involved. And here's a page of IBM Women in Technology, and they share their formative influences and some challenges they have faced in pursuing a career in technology. For example, one says that sitting in the front row in science classes helped her instructors perceive her interest, drive and determination. She approaches the issue of women becoming more involved from the angle of what women can do, although I think there is a hint or two for the guys also. But mainly she raises an intriguing thought that frankly was new to me, I'm embarrassed to say: If I want software to do exactly what I want, the sure way to make it happen is to write it myself. I have to admit, it's the very first time I ever thought seriously about learning how to program. Anyway, see what you think. And if you are interested in getting Red Hat certification, here's some special offers from Red Hat if you sign up before September 30. Here's the page on Red Hat Linux Certification. Maybe your company will send you, if you lack the means. You never know unless you ask. MIT has a 4-week summer school for high school girls, called MIT Women's Technology Program. And here's an interview with Pat Galloway, the former president of the American Society of Civil Engineers, the first woman to serve in that office. She tells some of the experiences she had that could have deflected her from her career as a civil engineer. If you are a man, you may not realize how typical such experiences are, and I provide the link for illustrative purposes, even though her field wasn't software. And here's a page of resources, links to women-related science/technology sites. So, with that, here is Fernanda.
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Women in Free Software
~ by Fernanda Weiden
The gender issue in the Free Software community is a big paradox: we
have a community of volunteers teaching the world how to develop
technology in a different way, one willing to distribute equal
opportunities through free access to the software, and at the same
time a community in which more than 50% of the total world population
doesn't participate.
A couple of studies have been done about female participation on
technology, and they suggest numbers of around 20%
1 in most
countries, measuring such things as the number of women enrolling in IT
courses like computer science at university, for instance.
What hasn't been studied is a different phenomenon, even worse
numbers when the IT career in question is Free Software. The number of
female developers is around 1.5% in general, and in some communities
like Debian, it is 0.5%. What are the reasons for the lack of women in
the Free Software community? I have some ideas.
When they try to integrate into the user/developers groups of the Free
Software community, most women find barriers, mainly related to two
diametrically opposed behaviors: either they will be treated as the
most loved person in the group, over treating them, or they will be
victims of sexist attacks, jokes or dating approachs.
These behaviors make 50%
2 of the women who try to join the community
in the end decide not to. It's not unusual for a woman to receive a
invitation to a date as the answer to her technical question, just as
it's not difficult to receive other questions as: “do you have a
boyfriend?” or “can you send me a picture?”. Because of that, women
tend to keep a little distance from the community, from the exchange
of knowledge and experience, and stay merely an observer in the
communities in which they participate.
The main problem with that is that in Free Software, the
user/developers discussion groups and mailing list play an important
and special role, since the community increases its knowledge and makes
their technique and software better based on knowledge sharing.
Another important point is that Free Software development is often
done as a hobby, just for fun, and in one's spare time. Where is a
woman's spare time? After their working day, most of them still have
the second working journey, which is at home, taking care of the home,
the children and her husband. If the men can have the privilege of
doing Free Software in their spare time, sitting in front of the
computer and having some fun coding what they want, women in general
don't have this privilege.
All these things end up in missed opportunities for women and for the
Free Software community, because both will never have the opportunity
to access this knowledge which could be crucial for improving some
software or other idea.
People write software to meet their needs, to make software do what
they want. If women don't participate in writing code and writing
documentation, they will never have the results and the answer for
their needs. That's how it is. Those who merely watch have no influence
on driving development, and the consequence is not having software that
just precisely what you want it to do.
Another issue I see. Women also usually require too much of
themselves, because they have a natural insecurity which results in
less women participating in technical discussions, for instance. It's
the old feeling of “I don't know enough to join this discussion. I'll
let the experts talk.”
Some time ago, I was in an event attending a talk about VPN (Virtual
Private Network) with ipsec. I never had submitted a paper to talk
about this subject because I felt I hadn't mastered the subject
sufficiently to be able to teach other people. After listening the
speaker talking for 30 minutes to 100 people more or less, though, it
was impossible to keep quiet and not say to him that he was spreading
wrong information to the people there. And it's not so unusual in
meetings around here to hear misinformation. I say that, even though
I still think that I haven't enough knowledge to give a talk on VPN
with ipsec. The man didn't either, though, and it didn't stop him at
all.
Women need to enpower themselves with the hacker spirit, which is the
spirit of sharing knowledge and ideas. They need to be aware that
particularly for Free Software, all the ideas, small or big, cloudy
or brilliant, are important to be merged and put together with other
ideas to compose the end product -- the Free Software which we
develop. Software per se is knowledge, built collaboratively by putting
together lots of small bits of knowledge. That's why it's so powerfull.
And no idea is brilliant until it is shared with other people. Could
you imagine if Einstein had had the idea of relativity and never told
anyone? Would it be a brilliant idea then? How long would it have taken
until another physicist had the same idea? How much time would have
been wasted?
To make sharing knowledge more natural for women, some groups have
been formed in the community with the target goal of creating a more
friendly community for women. The problem is that most women bring to
these group the same behaviors they learned to have in the traditional
groups: being merely an observer.
In the end: the female gender, known for being so communicative, is
intimidated to participate in the community, to share their ideas
because they fear the consequences of doing that. It's the
communication acting against the natural ability attributed to women,
the ability to communicate.
That's the role of the women's groups, to offer a friendly interface
for women to get their feet wet and then join the community. The
problem is when these groups don't have a clear target, in the end
they turn in Barbie worlds that don't exist in reality. Instead of
integrating the women into the community, they serve as ghettos,
re-creating existing groups in the community with the only objective
“being more friendly” for women.
Groups like Debian Women,
3 for instance, act to integrate women into
the Debian Project, and also as a thermometer of the sexism level of
this community. Putting women who work for Debian together in a group
is a way to make them feel more confortable, but a reality dose is
needed and should be administrated daily. So, Debian Women has no
mailing list of its own to discuss specific questions about Debian. If
women want to discuss that, they should go to the project's mailing
lists. The group helps you to find the way, but will not create
another, separate way just because you are a women. Debian will not
change on its own.
Another important player in the community are the groups that works on
giving to the “normal women” the opportunity to have access to
technology. That's the case of Projeto Software Livre Mulheres
4 (“Women Free Software Project” - PSL Mulheres) in Brazil. PSL Mulheres
works mainly on talking with other feminists/female groups to get them
discussing about gender and digital divide and about how to use Free
Software to solve that. It also works giving technical support to these
organisations. Women in general has no access to technology. That's
why they not get involved on it. In Brazil, for instance, the feminist
movement is still fighting for basic sexual/reproductive rights,
equality of salaries and oportunities for women and things like that,
and they usually don't talk about technologies. I believe the digital
divide will become a gender problem in the near future if we don't talk
about it from now.
Women need to get involved in the world of technology and make it change.
And I think that's the way it should be: women active in Free Software
use and development helping to change the community, not passively
waiting for this world to change itself.
1
http://comas.linux-aktivaattori.org/debconf5/general/proposals/file/19
2
http://people.softwarelivre.org/~fernanda/documentos/pesquisa-mulheres-2004.pdf
3 http://www.debianwomen.org
4 http://mulheres.softwarelivre.org
Copyright © Fernanda G Weiden.
Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document
under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or
any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no
Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A
copy of the license is included in the section entitled "GNU Free
Documentation License".
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/fdl.html
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 08:03 PM EDT |
:) [ Reply to This | # ]
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- Women in Free Software, by Fernanda G. Weiden - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 08:25 PM EDT
- Maybe for some... but not for me. - Authored by: nerd6 on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 08:39 PM EDT
- Women in Free Software, by Fernanda G. Weiden - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 09:45 PM EDT
- *sigh* pity... - Authored by: OK on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 10:17 PM EDT
- *sigh* pity... - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13 2005 @ 02:33 PM EDT
- Women in Free Software, by Fernanda G. Weiden - Authored by: fxbushman on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 10:24 PM EDT
- what rubbish! - Authored by: Mike Steele on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 01:38 AM EDT
- Coding competitive? - Authored by: rcsteiner on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 12:34 PM EDT
- bzzt! wrong. - Authored by: Chani on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 05:33 PM EDT
- Women in Free Software, by Fernanda G. Weiden - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13 2005 @ 11:14 AM EDT
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 08:28 PM EDT |
What a great article! Ms. Weiden is right that it takes a
two-pronged approach- providing support, encouragement,
and a friendly atmosphere, and encouraging women to be
bolder & tougher, 'cause the world is a pretty rough
place, and that isn't going to change anytime soon.
Carla Schroder
tuxcomputing.com [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 09:07 PM EDT |
I certainly don't have all the answers, but I have some
observations that may
(or may not) help.
1) Dating. There is really no way around it. If
you're
an attractive woman, you're going to get asked out by men.
It
doesn't matter if it's by someone within a computer
group, a workplace
(usually regardless of company rules),
a bar, or a church. It's part of being
human, and you're
going to have to learn how to deal with it gracefully.
Some of us should be so lucky to have that "problem".
2) Speaking your
mind. There is nothing wrong with
acknowledging that you are not an expert
(even if you
are), while also expressing your opinion. This is
especially
true if you've spent some time thinking about
your ideas and opinions. Even
then, not everyone will
agree with you. There are times when no one will
agree
with you, even if you are clearly correct. If you let
this stop you,
you will get no where.
3) Sexism. If there's one thing humanity as
perfected,
it's ways of its members elevating themselves by stepping
others.
This takes many forms, and is by no means limited
to sexism. You can take
heart in the realization that if
people are upsetting you for any
reason, you can
take your (and their!) toys and find a friendlier
environment. It's not ideal, but you have options. Also
bear in mind that
not all sexism is intentional.
Sometimes it's just institutionalized behavior
that the
members of the institution don't realize is objectionable
to
others. That behavior is just the way it's been,
probably through simple
social evolution.
4) Time. Like most professions and hobbies that are
dominated by one sex, integrating the other sex is going
to take time and
sacrifice -- by both sexes. There are
going to be inevitable conflicts and
bruised feelings. I
don't think there is any way to prevent this.
Eventually,
some middle ground will be found.
5) Merit. FOSS
development is a meritocracy, and
meritocracies are powered by friction. You
will find
yourselves in heated arguments a lot. Some people
will
even be unable to keep their arguments from straying
to the personal. If you
are the timid type, get over it
or say out (for your own good).
That's
all I have time for right now.
Tony O'Bryan
(Maybe it's time I made an
account).
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: nsomos on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 09:33 PM EDT |
Please place corrections here. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: nsomos on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 09:35 PM EDT |
Please place off-topic posts here.
Clickable links if you can manage them.
yada yada yada ...[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 09:36 PM EDT |
This is not a flame, just an observation from my experience.
Of the very
few women developers i've ever met, most only ever did it as a career because
they thought they could earn some decent money.
They weren't particularly
interested in the job, particularly the coding part of the job, and they
certainly weren't going to waste their private time working on free software
after work. Any that were driven by things other than the money quickly moved
away from the coding jobs that are the backbone (and often direct driver) of
hackers.
I must admit, that the so-called 'community' of 'hackers', is a
particularly unrewarding and exclusive one, so it is completely unsurprising
that women wouldn't want to take part. I've been a free software hacker for
nearly 10 years now, and I don't feel part of any community. I feel excluded
from any developer community as much as I feel excluded from general society by
being a hacker in the first place (few things kill a conversation faster than
saying you're a software engineer).
It's just a job.
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: LarryVance on Sunday, September 11 2005 @ 11:06 PM EDT |
I am not setting this up as flame bait. During the past several decades I have
been in circles where men and women work and in my own home where I have gotten
to deal closely with women. I admit that I have a one track mind. My wife and
daughters do not have one track minds.
I am tenacious at working on a problem with exclusion of all else. My wife can
and does manage several tasks but with less tenacity. In general I note that
men are more inclined to take something apart to see what makes it work than a
woman.
I am not saying that there are not women that are very good at technical things,
because I have encountered some women that are indeed very intelegent and
mechanically inclined, but as a general rule the proportion is very slanted
against such.
When it comes to managing something then I see women winning the big prize.
That multitasking capability that is more generally a woman's prize than a man's
says that mothers, executive secretaries, and paralegals are the real drivers.
---
ours is a sick profession marked by incompetence, lack of training, misconduct
and bad manners. -- Chief Justice Warren Burger[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: J.F. on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 12:12 AM EDT |
Another important point is that Free Software development is often done as
a hobby, just for fun, and in one's spare time. Where is a woman's spare time?
After their working day, most of them still have the second working journey,
which is at home, taking care of the home, the children and her husband. If the
men can have the privilege of doing Free Software in their spare time, sitting
in front of the computer and having some fun coding what they want, women in
general don't have this privilege.
That was particularly sexist.
What is the stereotype of FOSS programmers? One reviewer above said it quite
elegantly - "desperate geeks." Many MANY of us FOSS programmers are bachelors.
We don't have wives doing all the housework while we have "some fun coding." We
have to schedule time around house and yard work just as any woman would.
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: inode_buddha on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 12:20 AM EDT |
PJ, I could have told you about women in software years ago. I count many of my
own family and friends among them. They are not called "programmers"
or "scientists" or "librarians". Rather, they are called
"accountants", "division secretaries", etc.
The best ones IMHO know their subject matter as well as they know office work
such as physics and chemistry and literature. Those are few and far between, and
command top dollar in my experience. It is not a shameful thing to be corrected
by one of them. The computer is just a natural extension of that, IMHO.
---
-inode_buddha
Copyright info in bio
"When we speak of free software,
we are referring to freedom, not price"
-- Richard M. Stallman[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 01:07 AM EDT |
First off, I'm a male. And what follows is my maley opinion. (I'm pushing 60,
just so ya know)
Speaking *generally*, men and women are different (please don't ask me to
describe "different" -- the men know what I mean and the women know
what I mean). Anyone of either gender who won't admit to that fact is living in
a cave, alone. Anyone of either gender who would like to make men and women
"the same" *should* be living in a cave, alone. I happen to like
women. Of course that's a subjective statement and doesn't say how or why or
even when I like women. o O(and what does that have to do with anything?)
Now the fact that I like women has no bearing on how they perform technically.
That depends on their knowledge, skills and experience. Many of us have been in
jobs where we have flourished, and probably have had a job or two where we were
"stifled". I think that experience is pretty much gender agnostic.
I worked as a software engineer for a number of years. There were several
engineers who were women. I'm assuming, since I'm a male, that some of them
were regarded by the male engineers as attractive. I certainly found some of
them attractive. I did not, because I could not, lay my 'maleness' aside when I
had to work closely with one of the female engineers. If I found one
attractive, she did not become somehow "neutral" or
"unattractive" by the mere fact that I was working with her. There
was the usual tension in the background. o O(why did I suddenly think of the
movie, "When Harry Met Sally"?)
Several of the women engineers (maybe even all) were sharper than me. They
wrote good code. A couple of them wrote elegant code. They were, as far as I
could tell, respected in the engineering group and were regularly promoted. In
fact, a woman was the supervisor of my group. Personally, I think she was a
little inexperienced, people-wise, for that position, and had to grow into it
some. Men have to do that too. She was very sharp technically -- and had a
degree from MIT to boot.
The company also had a product test group. There were several women in it. I
don't think they "did as well" as the women in engineering. What I
mean by that is I got the distinct impression over a period of time that they
were looked down on by their male peers. Some of it was overt.
I've worked in other technical environments with women. As a group (most were
software engineers or systems analysts) they were on par with the men. On
reflection, I think the level of professionalism in the workplace/workgroup had
more than a little effect on how the women got on with their jobs.
However, I'm saying all this as a man. I have no idea how those women felt in
the vicissitudes of day-to-day working.
I would encourage more women to look at technical careers. I don't have to work
closely with them anymore :)
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 03:28 AM EDT |
I have only small close experience of "women in FOSS", namely in our
LUG. For what it can be worth, here it is.
Within the 10 most active members, 3 are women. Although this might seam
initially as awfully skewed, normalizing the results for the ratio of women in
the IT business/education, it looks quite encouraging.
How did we make it to that? It's rather simple: what's written in our manifesto
about equity of *all* things (gender, nation, beliefs, whatever) we take it VERY
seriously. So, yes, there have been incidents of sexism even in our LUG, like
some spineless dude using her being a woman as a point to disprove her technical
argument or some inellegant and desperate hits for an improbable date. But what
kept things in order, was the all-too-frequent kick-ban in IRC or the
intervention of most others to make the guy step down in person-to-person
discussions. OTOH, a woman was *never* "protected" when merit was not
due: if she erred, then she erred wether woman or man. That particular
atmosphere permitted confident women to take as much active part as confident
men.
In the business world, such a stance is still particularly difficult, either
because there is an istitutional sexism within the company's structure or
because the management favors proactive behaviour that inevitably will make
animosities grow.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 04:54 AM EDT |
Enthusiasm and competence are the only required qualities. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 08:40 AM EDT |
One of my favorite features of MythTV is the commercial deletion capability. As
a result, we watch very few commercials in my family.
However, there was a movie that was recorded the other day for which many the
commercials were not deleted for some reason. After watching the movie, my wife
said, did you notice the commercials? Her point was that many of them (most of
them?) had explicit or implicit references to sex.
With respect to the comment that women involved in technical groups get asked
out on dates, I am not surprised. However,
it is ironic that in our "liberated" society, the level of hormonal
over-charging puts women at a disadvantage.
If our society were less saturated with sex, perhaps women would be treated more
like people and less like sex objects.
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: chrism on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 12:33 PM EDT |
I have been programming for over 20 years now and I have noticed a lot of people
have a hard time learning how to program. In particlar, I have always been
baffled at:
1. how hard it is for many otherwise technically oriented people to learn
2. how much more effective many people would be in their jobs if they could
learn
3. how different we are all in how we learn, or what we need explained to us in
detail.
4. sometimes all someone needs is to have a few key issues explained to get them
to be able to learn something.
It seems that a certain percentage of the population has an easy time learning
how to program. I think until a few years ago, most programming books were
written by people who found it an easy subject to master. Since the need for
programmers has grown so quickly, and the price of hardware has fallen so far,
the number of people interested in learning how to program has grown immensely.
Authors have begun writing books on how to program that deliberately target
people who don't find it easy.
The book "who's afraid of C++"
(http://www.steveheller.com/cppad/cppad.htm) is a fascinating example of this.
The author of the book (Steve Heller) corresponded with a programming novice and
introduced programming. The things the novice got confused about were things
the author never have guessed. He let the dialog between them drive which
issues he focused upon in writing the book.
I have a suspicion that programming is not an inherently difficult activity, and
that people who find programming hard to learn are stumbling over issues that
people who find it easy to learn don't stumble over. If we could figure out
what those issues are, and take them seriously as writers of books and articles
on programming, we could make tremendous progress in bringing programming to a
larger audience.
Just look at how many people master algebra and calculus these days versus 100
years ago. Far more, BTW, than ever master programming and keep it around as a
life-long useful skill. What made that possible is that those subjects have been
around long enough for people to discover what the stumbling blocks were and to
write enough books to cover them.
The reason it won't take us another hundered years to cover the (compared to
math) young subject of programming as well is that we have the internet to help
organize the effort and subjects that can provide immediate feedback (you write
a program then run it to see if it works, you can play the piano and listen to
how it sounds) are much easier to learn than subjects like math where you need
someone else to check your work.
While we've made tremendous progress in educating programmers (I'll bet there
are 10 times as many programmers in the world today as there were 15 years ago)
in recent years, we have barely scratched the surface of what could be done.
Then again, I love programming and I want a world in which the ability to
program to some degree is as common as the ability to read and write. So
perhaps I am expecting too much ;-)
Chris Marshall
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Authored by: chrism on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 01:41 PM EDT |
PJ:
I am curious, based on your remark that Fernanda's article had you considering
learning programming, if you have attempted this before, what you tried, and
what you stumbled over that made you stop.
Chris Marshall
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Authored by: lifewish on Monday, September 12 2005 @ 02:40 PM EDT |
Now that the discussion of women in programming, and possible gender and
cultural differences and so on, has ended, how about a new topic of discussion?
Here it is ***DRUMROLL***
What language would you recommend PJ try to learn first if she does decide to
try her hand at coding? I'd recommend Python, personally (it's like BASIC would
be if BASIC was cool), but I suspect I'll be in the minority. What suggestions
do you lot have, and why?
---
The greed of the few trumps the need of the many[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: iraskygazer on Tuesday, September 13 2005 @ 01:49 AM EDT |
PJ,
This is a topic that has been researched at a number of California
universities. But, I believe there is a female psychologist from UCLA, who
appeared on 'TLC' or 'TDC' that stated the reasons about 'Why so few women work
in the tech field(s).' My perception of the TV article was this: 'Men like to
tinker and women simply like to have things work for them.' Please don't
criticize me for repeating the message I received from the article. But, I did
talk with my wife and she agreed with some parts of the psychologist's
statement.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13 2005 @ 12:04 PM EDT |
Any time I see any feminist diatribe about "women in
technology", it's almost always by one or more white women
looking to promote *other* white women in the
technological industry. As a technologist, I see this
every day.
Unfortunately, experience has taught me that *black*
American women, for example, are not viewed as "sisters"
in this "sisterhood" of feminism. None of my sisters, all
of whom are intelligent, strong people, and who happen to
be black Americans, have ever felt welcome among crowds of
white women. I asked them why. They said, "what they're
talking about would be great...if it included us."
I found this curious, so I asked several other black women
out there, and the answer, though of course worded a bit
differently, was essentially the same as my sisters'
response. On several university campuses here in the
United States, I've seen black women make real efforts to
actively participate in, for example, the Society of Women
Engineers, and they end up leaving for lack of being truly
welcomed as "sisters" by their white counterparts. They
were treated just like I was by black Americans in
NSBE--shunned for my skin color (I'm rather
light-skinned). For a long time, I didn't understand why
so many black Americans--especially black women--chose
historically black colleges and universities. This kind
of oversight on the part of the "feminist" movement helps
explain it. Were I a black woman, I might well have
considered it too.
Therefore, I must ask, given such observations, why isn't
this study taking color differences into account the same
way it purports to take gender differences into account?
My observation is that the white women simply don't care.
If this is incorrect, then by all means, I invite them to
please provide some insight.
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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 15 2005 @ 01:49 AM EDT |
Death To women's Rights
women come in to rule men, nothing more. They see that men have created
something great and wish to claim credit for and control it (to the extent which
that is possible).[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 15 2005 @ 09:06 AM EDT |
"Whatever man creates woman seeks to control" [ Reply to This | # ]
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