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Reports from the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops
Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 12:41 PM EST

Are you wondering how the UK Patent Office's technical contribution workshops are going so far? FFII has an account. And our first report is in, too, from Groklaw's Sagitta, who attended the workshop yesterday in Bristol.

To refresh your memory, the purpose of the workshops, as you will see in the UKPO's press release, was limited to trying to define terms, or as their spokesman phrased it, "to see if a definition which is clear to software developers can be found which continues to enable the patent system to protect technical inventions."

There was no question on this table as to whether or not to patent software, only how to carefully phrase it to clarify which types of software-related inventions are patentable and which are not. Currently, computer-implemented inventions can only be patented if they are novel, inventive and make a "technical contribution" but what is the line or clear definition of "technical contribution"? The workshop hoped to figure that out.

Here is an excerpt from the press release, explaining the purpose of the workshops:

Patent workshops for the software industry

Today the Patent Office is inviting software developers and patent professionals to a series of workshops to explore how to define the contentious border between patentable and non-patentable software-related inventions. With many thousands of patents granted in recent years for telecommunications, data processing and control systems the economic importance of this border could not be greater.

There is a currently a debate in Europe over a Directive concerning patents for "computer-implemented inventions" ("CII"). European Governments believe that a Directive is needed to clarify the law as to which types of software-related inventions are patentable and which are not. The current case law states that only CIIs which are novel, inventive and make a "technical contribution" are patentable. However, many software developers find this definition confusing, and ask "What is a 'technical contribution'"?

Peter Hayward, Divisional Director at the Patent Office, said:

"These workshops are to focus in detail on the issue of 'technical contribution'. We want to see if the definition evolving through numerous court precedents is the best one to formalise in the CII Directive. We will be very interested to see if a definition which is clear to software developers can be found which continues to enable the patent system to protect technical inventions."

"We need to hear opinions from a broad range of interests - not just from patent attorneys and patent-owning software companies. The views of those software developers who work without patents are just as important to us. Opposing views on the Directive have been expressed by different sectors of the software industry, and not just along the traditional division between the large and small firms."

Here is Sagitta's report on how it went. There will be more workshops to follow, and we expect to have more reports to share with you.

****************************

Report From One of the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops (Bristol)

~ by Sagitta

The workshop took place in a conference centre in Bristol (although the building was many decades old and must have originally served a different purpose). The exercise was scheduled to start at one o'clock, with registration and tea available from half past twelve, so naturally I arrived at exactly 12:30. I found a handful of people already taking refreshments and debating the merits of software patents.

One guest was trenchantly (but politely) criticising software patentability, and in particular some existing European patents. A member of the UKPO staff expressed the opinion that some examiners in the European Patent Office had awarded a small number of patents they should not have done, and that an aim of the Directive was to stop this, although he didn't say whether the Directive should invalidate these patents. He also commented that making all software unpatentable would invalidate a large body of existing patents, which was (he implied) out of the question. I felt the implication of these remarks was that patent law could only ever progress in one direction: greater patentability.

I mention this conversation not just to show that UKPO staff have opinions like all other human beings, but because it explains a possible motive behind the reluctance to amend the directive. If it is deemed to merely codify existing case law (regardless of whether, in fairness, it actually does), there can be no objection to applying it retroactively and enabling a few dodgy claims to be weeded out. You may wonder, of course, whether this is sufficient reason to change the statutes of 25 nations so comprehensively.

I moved on to chat with perhaps the most genial and casually dressed person at the workshop. He turned out to be a patent lawyer, which proves the danger of judging by appearances. Another two other legal gentlemen standing close by were kind enough to reinforce the stereotype with guarded, incisive conversation, charcoal grey suits, and, to my eyes, a lean and hungry look.

When asked, I mentioned that I was in favour of patents, but against software patents, and the affable solicitor asked me why my industry was different from all others. A fair question, and I could have answered that companies already write innovative software without applying for patents, that a competitive market is probably a greater spur to productive research and certainly more beneficial overall to consumers, that the administrative costs and legal risks are especially burdensome where a small company or a private individual can create a new product quickly and easily, and that potentially there could be dangerous implications for research and free speech if a description of an algorithm becomes an infringement. However, on these occasions I tend to operate under the delusion that I'm channeling Socrates, and so instead the conversation proceeded something along these lines:

- Why should software be treated differently from other literary works, like films and books?
- Because software is technical, films and books aren't.
- Surely books can be technical, such as a technical manual or a textbook?
- Perhaps there should be patents for technical books, then.
- Why shouldn't software just be protected by copyright, as per the Directive on the legal protection of software programs? Or as an industrial design?
- Because you need an incentive to innovate.
- If we spend 12 months developing a product, then we're still 12 months ahead of the competition, and that's incentive enough.
- No, it would only take them 1 or 2 months, because they can look at what you've done and copy it.
- But if they look at the internal workings of my software and write something that does the same thing, isn't that a derivative work?
- Not necessarily. [An excellent lawyerly answer.] Copyright doesn't protect the idea, only the expression. You can't have a copyright on 'a girl goes into the woods with an apple for her grandmother...'
- Hmmm, I think I read a court suggested you can, although the case was decided for other reasons. 1So you think software patents should cover the processes that the software uses to achieve its effect?
- No, a patent should cover the effect.
- So if you have a patent on a car, then a boat would infringe it, because they both have the effect of getting you from A to B?
- The boat wouldn't be novel.
- But if it were?
- Then the boat would infringe the patent.
- Even though it doesn't use any of the same methods?
- In that case the patent was written badly. It shouldn't say 'a car', it should say 'a device for getting from A to B'.

I decided my interlocutor could not be accused of inconsistency or clouded thinking. But it was now time to get into groups for discussion, and I found myself assigned to a table with four other people, apparently at random. I was introduced to another professional involved in software development (but I forget his precise job). There was also an academic who expressed a degree of pride in his role in developing a program comprising 5 million lines of FORTRAN. Beside me sat a patent lawyer, who indicated, with apparently unintentional irony, that he did not deal with software cases 'as such'.

I introduced myself, explaining that I'm a software engineer, and have spent the past 3 years working on embedded applications for a large multinational company. I added that I wasn't representing my employer (nor am I representing them here), my aim was to safeguard my own career as a software engineer, and more generally my interests as a consumer. The fifth gentleman explained that he had come as an observer from Intellect, and true to his word he sat calmly and silently throughout the session, as inscrutable as a CCTV camera but not so unnerving. During the group discussion he appeared to be interested mostly in our table, but he had positioned himself to view everyone in the room.

The persons present included 30 guests: young to middle-aged adults, of whom approximately 2 were female. Our hosts implied that probably most of us were software developers, but when I asked later they didn't know exactly how many attendees belonged to which professions. There were three gentlemen from the UKPO (all examiners I think), and a lady who was just as quiet as our Intellectual, and worked probably for the UKPO or possibly for the conference centre.

One of the UKPO staff addressed us to explain the background to the workshop. He emphasised that the UKPO was hosting this event on the instructions of the government, and that like any other civil servant his role was to follow the instructions of the government, not his own initiative. His modest stillness and humility was not marred when on one occasion he accidentally referred to himself as a 'minister of the government'.

He explained that following the public meeting last December, Lord Sainsbury had decided to explore alternative definitions of the term 'technical contribution'. He had directed the UKPO to undertake further consultation, and as a result the Patent Office had received more than 200 suggestions on the definition of the term, and many of these would be tested in this series of gatherings. We were told 'the purpose of these workshops is to see whether we can find a definition that gives broadly the same results as the current "technical contribution" test in European law but is clearer to apply.' The UKPO did not claim to be aiming for anything more satisfactory than current case law for the industry and the economy as a whole, but note the word 'broadly' permits plenty of room for manoeuvre. The original press release says much the same, but is more carefully spun. In both cases, the stated aim is clarity, not palatability.

The main exercise of the day began: we opened (and in some cases disassembled) our booklets, and began reading the questions set by the examiners, conscious of the strict time limit. But unlike most exams, we were encouraged to talk amongst ourselves as we attempted to solve the tricky problems presented. Given abstracts of five hypothetical patent applications, and four alternative definitions of the term "technical contribution", we had to decide whether each invention fulfilled each definition, and thus (given the assumption that they were novel and inventive) would be patentable. Our progress was slow at first, as we struggled to digest the complex phrasing and terminology of the definitions.

The UKPO's methodology is to test whether self-selected members of the public are able to apply these alternative definitions easily and consistently, given very limited time and no opportunity for background research. I'm not sure how relevant this is to ensuring that they give clear and consistent results in the courts: it appears that the workshops are seeking a definition that is clear and simple for the lay person, not (just) one that is most helpful to lawyers. These two criteria should coincide, of course. But I didn't have any confidence that a patent law specialist, equipped with a long history of precedents, proceeding methodically through a claim, would arrive at the same conclusions I did in a snap decision. We might end up with a definition that gives a clear and consistent result at first glance, but a contrary (though consistent) result on detailed examination.

For the benefit of future workshops I'm not going to reveal the precise phraseology we were given (which would also violate the UKPO's copyright). Other sessions will use different definitions for the most part, except that the wording currently proposed will be considered in all of them. One of the groups yesterday was forearmed with a legal opinion outlining the current interpretation of a term used in some of the definitions, but such cribbing rather defeats the aim of the exercise.

The sample patents are all computer-related, and mostly software patents in the sense that in inventive step consists of using new/different programs or data. Some were 'pure' software patents in the sense that they didn't mention any specific physical output. The examples will probably be reused in the future, so I shan't be specific about them now. The claims were much easier to understand than the definitions (if only all real patent claims were as comprehensible.) Because there were several competing definitions, and because the intention was clarity, the claims were not written to meet the specific terms. There were some cases where I suspected an effectively identical claim could have been made in different words, and passed instead of failing.

Although comparatively clear, the examples did require careful reading. We interpreted one of the patents as covering the use of an algorithm, but looking at it again today I think it only covers a particular hardware implementation. I hope others don't make the same mistake, because that distinction is important for some of the (IMO better) definitions. Another claim involved a sequence of calculations, but didn't say that they were performed by a computer. And I thought there was an example of a design technique trying to pass itself off as a manufacturing process. The easiest claims to decide were two very pure software patents covering internal features of applications.

Fortified with all the self-confidence of a legal ignoramus who has spent several hours researching a particularly dull field of EU and UK law, I took it upon myself to very gently guide the discussion at my table, and see if we could agree on a firm conclusion for each of the twenty combinations of claims and definitions. I hesitate to call myself a chairman; I prefer to think of us as a gang of four. Thus it's my fault if, as I suspect, my partners also misunderstood the algorithm/implementation patent. (Likewise, they share some of the responsibility for my error -- all very democratic.)

Our hosts hurried us along, afraid that we would not finish in time. Progress was slow at first, as we struggled to comprehend the subtle language in front of us, but once we had assimilated the information we were able to proceed at a steady pace, and finished with a couple of minutes to spare. The time constraint was a problem, but perhaps one of the goals was to simulate the pressures faced by a patent examiner. We treated each patent in turn, which I think was a methodological error. The definitions were more complex and subtle, and so it would have been easier to keep a single definition in mind while working through each of the patents.

When our time was up, the number of judgements for and against a technical contribution was recorded for each combination of patent and definition. I recorded these statistics, but unfortunately I jotted them on the green results sheet that had to be handed in at the end of the workshop, so I don't have them now. The full results of the whole series of workshops are to be published on the 8th of April, including all the sample patents and definitions. The organisers also asked a spokesperson for each table (who, me?) to give an opinion on the alternative definitions.

The first definition was the one currently proposed. All the groups agreed that it reduced to the question of whether the invention was in a field of technology and had technical features, and all felt that this was of little or no value in explaining the term 'technical contribution'. This was felt to be the most permissive, but we had been very uncertain about some of our decisions, and in two cases the table had split (no, not literally), with two of us expressing a tentative 'yes' and two a tentative 'no'. This definition also produced some approximately 15/15 splits across the workshop as a whole.

The next two definitions were very similar, almost word-by-word anagrams. Again they specified that a technical contribution must be in a field of technology, but added that controlling the forces of nature in a new way was technical, but data processing was not. If I understood them correctly, one said that only using of forces of nature could be technical, but the other left open the possibility that other things might be. Thus it would not explicitly allow or disallow business methods, if they count as a field of technology. For all the examples we had, however, our group arrived at the same conclusions in both cases. These definitions also tended to produce more consistent results across the whole workshop, although I don't remember the details.

All the groups found these definitions easier to work with, albeit some found the combination of positive and negative conditions to be awkward and possibly inconsistent. There was disagreement over whether the results were desirable, however. Some participants, probably the majority, were in favour, others were not. After a little prompting from one of the UKPO staff, one speaker described one of these definitions as 'unduly restrictive'. We were also asked whether we felt some of the words were ambiguous -- my group at least had seen there were multiple constructions, but were confident we understood the intent.

The last definition talked about physical processes, but in a more general way. As far as I can recall, it produced similar results to the previous two, but my group at least had much less confidence in our judgements. This was reflected in the general consensus of the workshop, which held that it was as bad, or almost as bad, as the first definition. I believe the overall results from applying this formula were intermediate between the original wording and the other two, but can't remember how consistent they were.

As the attendees prepared to depart, the organisers called for a show of hands over whether we thought each of the inventions ought to be patentable. I don't think there were any declared abstentions, but the results didn't always add up to thirty due to sampling errors and people leaving the room. In all cases the majority, including me, voted against, but the margins differed considerably. In one case there was a more or less equal split of 12 for and 13 against: this was the claim we had misread, and on reflection I should have voted the other way. The case of the design process/manufacturing process was equally contentious, with 11 votes in favour and 12 against. So the claims I found trickiest in themselves were also the most controversial.

Two very 'pure' software patents received votes of 6/19 and 2/26, and it would be interesting to hear why some people decided differently in these two cases - perhaps because the more popular one made reference to a the invention's ultimate effect in allowing certain hardware to be used more efficiently. The remaining patent used new software to carry out a new commercial activity, and this was rejected even more strongly, with only one vote in favour. (The solicitor I'd chatted with earlier was sticking firmly to his principles.)

(This may reflect an anomalous feature of current practice: my rather simplistic reading of the decisions of the EPO and various courts is that one can patent the use of a computer to perform an existing business process (running software on a computer has technical character), but not to perform a new business process (because the invention as a whole does not have technical character). For the benefit of skip-readers, I repeat that I am not a lawyer, and the casually held view I have just stated is not advice to anyone.)

Finally we were asked whether we were in favour of 'software patents'. Several people had left by this stage, but 9 remained in favour, 16 against, and at least one thought the question was too ambiguous to answer. By this point the participants in the afternoon's workshop were quietly dispersing with scarcely a backward glance, while those for the evening had begun to gather in the antechamber. On the way home, I pondered the results of the session. (Actually I didn't ponder that much: mainly I nursed a severe headache, and later read about dynastic turmoil in Spain circa 1500. But I need some link to my conclusions.)

*Each of our four definitions of 'technical contribution' attempted to do the entire job of defining an invention, specifying in one way or another that it must be technological, new, and inventive (which is the equivalent of 'non-obvious' in the USA, I believe). To me it seems clearer and easier to define 'invention', to save traversing the links from 'invention' to 'technical contribution' to 'technical effect' and onwards.

*Three formulae attempted to exclude software and algorithms, and in practice I think would usually forbid patents relating to file formats, communication protocols, and user interfaces too. But the proposal leaves the issue of software undefined, so on this point it modestly defers to existing precedent without attempting to clarify it.

*Although the sample applications were written comparatively clearly, at least one group misread at least one of the claims. In my case it caused two of the 'forces of nature' -- style definitions to reject a patent they should have accepted.

*In general, some proportion of the inconsistent results will be due to misunderstanding the claims, and not to different interpretations of the terms. Therefore the definitions will tend to look worse than they really are.

*Lord Sainsbury is described as being the prime mover behind this exercise, and more generally the endeavours of the British government and the UKPO on this issue. This is consistent with the UKPO's web site. I imagine he will direct the UK position in the Council of Ministers, and any governmental representations to the Commission and European Parliament.

*The workshop itself did not mention the current position of the directive, the parliamentary amendments, or the procedural stunts that it has performed in its eventful journey. There was some discussion beforehand on whether technically the second reading has begun yet.

*There has been no mention of coordinated exercises in other EU countries -- Lord Sainsbury and the UKPO are doing this alone.

*Those people who I knew were patent lawyers were consistently in favour of software patents, those I knew were software developers were consistently against. Some people had different opinions on the different sample applications - I don't know their backgrounds. The patent examiners preferred to maintain the status quo, regardless of whether it allowed any or all software patents, but they also wanted clarity.

*There was a clear majority in favour of pronouncing 'patent' with a short 'a'.


1 I was thinking of Cantor Fitzgerald International v Tradition UK Ltd. , discussed here by Humphreys, (a law firm based coincidentally in Bristol), and see point 4.


  


Reports from the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops | 202 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
OT Threads go here
Authored by: NastyGuns on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 02:42 PM EST
OT threads go here please.

It makes it much easier when links are created like this:

<a href="www.example.com">your words here</a>

Also make sure your "post" method is "html"

---
NastyGuns,
"If I'm not here, I've gone out to find myself. If I return before I get back,
please keep me here." Unknown.

[ Reply to This | # ]

"Our hosts hurried us along, afraid that we would not finish in time"
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 03:09 PM EST
RE: "Our hosts hurried us along, afraid that we would not finish in
time"...

My experience with government hearings that interface with the common volunteer
citizen, is that:

1- Government employees always are on the payroll clock, they work to control
the process by setting time limits.

2- That any lawyers that are present most likely are there to protect their
industry, or the industry of someone who is paying them to be there. The
lawyers are most likely getting paid to be there, and are on a different clock
then the government employees. But, they both like the clock and watch it so
that things don't get drawn out with too many ideas that they don't want brought
into the discussion.

3- That the goal of the organization of many of these prearraged testings of
citizen interest often are created by crafty word makers who also toil at the
art of probability and statistics and often consult for those that are not. SO
- with their art of Probability and Statistics, armed with many tests they have
used in the past, they can load a session to come up with the results that are
intended.

4- That these meetings don't like to start from scratch. As who knows, one
might end up without a job if the software patents were not doing the job they
intended. If no software patents, then no government job reviewing software
patents, and my goodness once you got a whole agency funded it is almost
impossible to remove funding from it (employee unions hate such actions.).

So - the above observation of these govenment testing actions was an interesting
play. But, we only saw what was going on "on stage", where the magic
is actually "back stage" and staged by those that are often quietly
out of sight, and paid very well to get the intended results. So - the posted
results as viewed by the writer of the "Groklaw article" of the day,
will be desired, after the govenment has digested and published the results.

Any bets that they results will show that the "agency" view will be
supported. Remember that in fairness the law firms will be sending only one
lawyer to each session to sell their story, where the citizen only has one
voice.

[ Reply to This | # ]

I found this funny
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 03:26 PM EST
"The persons present included 30 guests: young to middle-aged adults, of
whom approximately 2 were female."

Approximately? Were you not sure about the third? ;-)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Corrections here please
Authored by: sagitta on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 04:38 PM EST
Some nitwit wrote "at least one group of misread", instead of "at
least one group misread".

---
Sagitta

[ Reply to This | # ]

Thank You, Sagitta!
Authored by: Simon G Best on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 04:58 PM EST

Thank you for giving us that report, Sagitta. Yours is the fourth account of a workshop I've read so far. The other three were two in the 'latest news' section of the FFII website, and one in the UK-specific forum at NoSoftwarePatents.com. Perhaps later I'll gather together a proper set of links, but I'm tired right now.

My workshop's on the 7th of April, in London. I'll post a report of it somewhere.

---
FOSS IS political. It's just that the political establishment is out of touch and hasn't caught up.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Reports from the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops
Authored by: marbux on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 06:47 PM EST
In regard to defining "technical contribution," here are collected definitions of:

As can quickly be determined from skimming those pages, "technical" is a highly ambiguous word, and only obfuscates rather than clarifying the meaning of the phrase "as such" used in Article 52(3) of the European Patent Convention.

---
Retired lawyer

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe the Stallman argument ...
Authored by: AveryAndrews on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 06:53 PM EST
would have been worth trying on the patent lawyer, which is, as I understand it,
that it's very hard to tell if a hardware idea will actually work or not (gears
break, bearings wear out, plates warp and bend, wires grow whiskers ...), and
since patents cost money, it's not worth laying hardware patent minefields.
With software otoh, much more of the stuff you conceive in the shower or while
walking the dog will actually work, and there are established techniques for
describing software at a fairly high level of abstraction, so that people can
get benefits from laying patent minefields without producing a useful product
themselves (eg Eolas).

[ Reply to This | # ]

Reports from the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 07:55 PM EST
The main question for me is...

When the UKPO will found the correct "technical contribution"
definition:
A - They will support European Parliament to change the directive text.
B - They swear on the head of Elvis to use only the correct definition.

?????????

:-)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Reports from the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops
Authored by: urzumph on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 08:22 PM EST
<blockquote>
- Surely books can be technical, such as a technical manual or a textbook?
- Perhaps there should be patents for technical books, then.
</blockquote><br>
Um, or not.
Technical books, are a collection of facts, with perhaps some creative
presentation. To be perfectly honest, I think some textbooks are barely
copyrightable, let alone patentable.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Patent Officers
Authored by: gleef on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 10:22 PM EST

The UKPO's methodology is to test whether self-selected members of the public are able to apply these alternative definitions easily and consistently, given very limited time and no opportunity for background research. I'm not sure how relevant this is to ensuring that they give clear and consistent results in the courts

Actually, it sounds to me like they were using you to simulate Patent Officers. I don't know about the UK, but here in the US, our patent officers need to make exactly decisions such as this, given very limited time and almost no opportunity for background research. This is partially because the budget for the USPTO is tiny compared to the load of patent applications.

I would be very nervious, if this is the case.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Reports from the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops
Authored by: etmax on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 11:07 PM EST
If they must have a patent system for SW, and they want to ensure the
legislation guarantees inventions are novel etc.,

then why not have the patent office hand over the patentable/non-patentable
decision to a "jury" of 100 open source programmers!!

This would enusure that the decision would be made in the best interest of the
world, rather than in the best interest of a bunch of megalomaniacs.

---
Max - Melbourne Australia

[ Reply to This | # ]

Reports from the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops
Authored by: etmax on Saturday, March 19 2005 @ 11:50 PM EST
One thing that this whole question of SW patents has not considered adequately,
and is the reason why they were previously excluded, is that in the case of HW
patents millions of dollars and many years is spent in developing hardware
systems and concepts for a patentable invention, and this time and effort must
be recoverable by some means, and hence the granting of patents.

With SW the labour in not generally (and quite frankly rarely if ever) in the
concept, but rather in the coding i.e. source which is copyrightable. It would
have taken e.g. MS (the company not the disease) a couple of hours to dream up
IsNot as an innovative (not) concept and perhaps an hour to code the example (if
they gave any). So why is it sensible that they can then tie up the programming
world for 20 years and prevent programmers from using a concept they have been
using for decades by another name such as "Is Not" (not joined).

Perhaps we need to stipulate that any SW "invention" that contains a
patented "invention" MUST have full sourcecode disclosure so that it
is clearly visible how the concept relates their idea!!

Typically HW inventions are accompanied by schematics which are the equivalent
of source code, so that would put them on even footing.

I'll wager that if MS (the company, not the disease) had to reveal all they
would realise that copyright is indeed the better protection mechanism for SW.

Cheers



---
Max - Melbourne Australia

[ Reply to This | # ]

Reports from the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 20 2005 @ 03:48 AM EST
I think we need to try to turn this around. We should be asking not only
"why does it make sense to patent computer invention" we should also
be asking "since it makes sense to patent computer inventions and business
processes why should it not also be possible to patent legal arguments."

We need to turn this around on the bodies involved We need to start patenting
processes in their domain. Ie, government and law. We need to make the legal and
professional systems feel the same fears that we do about the patent system.

If we can bring the same fear und uncertainty to governement and lawyers about
patents that we feel then we will start to see these things turn around.

We should start patenting as many things as possible in these spheres. Then
when the lawyer says why shouldnt your profession work under patents we can turn
around and ask the same question.

The bottom line is programmers WRITE TEXT FOR A LIVING. If you can patent what
that text means then you should be able to patent any text.

[ Reply to This | # ]

But they have an incentive
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 20 2005 @ 04:49 AM EST
> - Why shouldn't software just be protected by copyright,
> as per the Directive on the legal protection of software
> programs? Or as an industrial design?
>> - Because you need an incentive to innovate.

The incentive to innovate in open source works by
allowing/demanding that changed source code is published.
When a change is done, the incentive to publish
is by the self interest of getting back the improvements
from others.
The GPL demands changed code to be published with a binary,
and that's what makes it so attractive to contribute
code improvements.
Other licences (eg. APL) allow changed code to be
published, and these rely in the same mechanism, but
do not impose the duty to publish, making it possibly
less attractive to contribute in the first place.

In open source a contribution to a previous one
can be done in weeks (even days).
With patents, one first needs to get more certainty
about the legal status, which takes years.

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One thing I'd be interested to know.
Authored by: Naich on Sunday, March 20 2005 @ 05:53 AM EST
Maybe a question for one of these workshops?

Is there any any field, other than computer software, where an invention can be
protected by both copyright and patent?

I can't think of one. If there isn't, then why should software be made a
special case?

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Small world trivia
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 20 2005 @ 06:10 AM EST
*Lord Sainsbury is described as being the prime mover behind this exercise, and more generally the endeavours of the British government and the UKPO on this issue. This is consistent with the UKPO's web site. I imagine he will direct the UK position in the Council of Ministers, and any governmental representations to the Commission and European Parliament."

David Sainsbury was made an Honorary Fellow of King's College, Cambridge last year. One suspects not for his contribution to the patents mess. David graduated with a degree in History and Psychology from King's in 1963 after which he joined his family business - Sainsburys are a large UK supermarket chain - where he worked until being appointed minister for Science and Innovation in 1998.

The work by Alan Turing on the mathematical basis of computation is at the heart of some theoretical arguments underlying the problems in applying the patent system to computer software. Curiously enough, Turing studied mathematics as an undergraduate at King's and was a Fellow of the College from 1935 to 1952. One of the big names in the early years of the Information revolution that is now threatened by a slow down due to the patent problem.

Turing is famous (in some circles) for his treatment of the 'halting problem' in general computing machines. With patents, we now have an entirely different 'halting problem', this time of deliberate human contrivance.

Small world isn't it!

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Reports from the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops
Authored by: steelneck on Sunday, March 20 2005 @ 06:56 AM EST

- Copyright doesn't protect the idea, only the expression. You can't have a copyright on 'a girl goes into the woods with an apple for her grandmother...'

- So, you want patents for that??? You see, what copyright does not protect, and leaves in the public domain, is left there to not dry up the stream of developable ideas and make shure that one creators work does not prejudice the next ones rights. Look at article 13 and 30 of TRIPs, are you saying that TRIPs contradicts itself?

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Lord Sainsbury
Authored by: Chris Lingard on Sunday, March 20 2005 @ 08:54 AM EST

Lord Sainsbury has been mentioned above, so I thought that I would post some detail about him. He was on the Committees of Europe in the Council; and is also a Science Minister within the present government of the United Kingdom.

He inherited the Sainsbury supermarket chain, and was a multi-millionaire by the time he was in his twenties. According to a BBC article he is now worth between one and two billion United Kingdom Pounds.

In the 1980s he bankrolled the Social Democratic Party and at the time there was talk of him being a future secretary of state for trade in David Owen's cabinet; but this never happened.

He then joined the Labour Party of Tony Blair, with a two million pound donation. After the Labour election win in 1997 he was made a Lord and shortly afterwards became a minister. < /p>

In addition to believing in software patents, he also has a financial interest in the development of genetically-modified food.

Since an election here is imminent, some questions should be asked to prospective labour candidates. Software patents should be part of the election platform, and not the whim of some person lucky enough to be born rich. The local Labour party has started to oppose patents. A local MEP, Phillip Whitehead, has written a wonderful article in a local paper about software patents and the Microsoft connection. No link sorry, the internet has not reached the local paper yet.

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UKPO's Technical Contribution Definition
Authored by: KontinMonet on Sunday, March 20 2005 @ 09:09 AM EST
I find it faintly ridiculous that the UKPO is deliberately restricting contributions to a defintion of 'technical contribution'!

I am (slowly) working on an argument showing the inherent circular contradiction in defining s/w such that a simulation of that s/w does not infringe any patent on the original. It would be useful to see how 'technical contributions' are defined so as to obviate the circular contradiction.

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If the tables were turned...
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 20 2005 @ 11:41 AM EST

*Those people who I knew were patent lawyers were consistently in favour of software patents, those I knew were software developers were consistently against.

One wonders what lawyers would say if it were proposed that their field of endeavour should be patentable. Suggest to them that they should pay a royalty for use of legal precedents. After all, someone else payed the financial burden for the case that set the precedent, it's only fair to compensate them, right?

'We can't use the chewbacca defense, we'll get sued by Johnny Cochran!!! Quick - see if we can negotiate a license!'

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greater patentability
Authored by: Thomas Frayne on Sunday, March 20 2005 @ 11:59 AM EST
"A member of the UKPO staff expressed the opinion that some examiners in
the European Patent Office had awarded a small number of patents they should not
have done, and that an aim of the Directive was to stop this, although he didn't
say whether the Directive should invalidate these patents. He also commented
that making all software unpatentable would invalidate a large body of existing
patents, which was (he implied) out of the question. I felt the implication of
these remarks was that patent law could only ever progress in one direction:
greater patentability."

I think that the implication is that a small number of current patents could be
invalidated by a sweeping change in patent law, but to invalidate a large class
of existing patents, a change in the law should target a single common fault of
members of the class. Thus the law could change in both directions, but
sweeping changes should be made carefully.

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Lawyers feelings about natural forces definition.
Authored by: sjgibbs on Sunday, March 20 2005 @ 01:38 PM EST

From the linked FFII account:

One thing I noted was that the patent office lawyers at each table seemed to think the use of the term "controllable forces of nature" was too vague and left too much leeway for debate.

This alleged opinion seems somwhat contrarian to me.

I would love to hear a patent lawer explain exactly which additional interpretations are available in the "natural forces" definition compared to the "technical features" definition of technical and how therefore it is the more vague of the two.

I wonder if actually it's the "debate" part that they don't like....? Perhaps they would prefer a definition that allows through any claim they care to make - without debate?

SJG

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Do we need a debate about patenting in general?
Authored by: morsch on Monday, March 21 2005 @ 12:26 AM EST
Isn't it time to open the debate to patents in general rather than focus on the
software side of patents and the patenting of ideas?

What type of new patenting system do we want if the old European system de facto
has already accepted ideas and software as being patentable?

Is it possible to effectively exclude software/idea patents from any patent
system?

Doesn't much of our criticism regarding the issues around software and idea
patents apply to patenting in general?

Is it possible to have an effective approval system with the ever increasing
number of non-software patent applications?

Looking a bit ahead is it possible at all for any patent approval institution to
keep up with the demand of applications without lowering the standards of
approval, without becoming an uncontrollable monster bureaucracy?

Are our legal systems capable of counterbalancing the patent offices regarding
patent disputes? (number of cases and technical expertise)

If it takes an inventor 20 years of court fights to receive a financial reward
for his invention (Walkman case against Sony), whom does patenting really
protect or serve?

Regarding the FOSS cause, does it help our case to focus our arguments around
the software / idea patenting? Assuming we would convince the legislators in
Europe and the US of the arguments against software patents, wouldn't it be some
kind of "Pyrrhic victory"?

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Surely a telling point?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 21 2005 @ 03:46 AM EST
"Those people who I knew were patent lawyers were consistently in favour of
software patents, those I knew were software developers were consistently
against."

If most practitioners in an industry don't want patents, there should be nothing
to discuss!

The difficulty lies only in helping the governments separate the lobbyist and
the lawyers out - seeing their motivations for what they are.

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An analysis of "software is math".
Authored by: aug24 on Monday, March 21 2005 @ 04:48 AM EST

I have been mulling this over for ages now, and I have also been improving my UML. This latter activity has enabled me to clearly understand my existing opinion/feeling that the principle of "software is math" means that software should not, under any circumstances, be patentable.

Math, or maths, for the English here (including me) is not something which humans have created. It is a central part of the universe. We have discovered, not decided that 1+1=2.

As such, any part of mathematics is simply a question of discovering what (valid) actions will manipulate a given situation. For example, in data compression, the technique must always have worked, will always work, and could have been found by any individual with the requisite skills. There is no creation, only discovery. This is not to denigrate the discovery, but to point out that there is nothing new but knowledge.

To put this in UML terms, think of a huge state change diagram. We are suggesting that someone who finds a new route through an existing diagram should have the right to use and license that route hereafter. Is that reasonable?

To put the UML into non-technical terms, imagine a very large, very old, maze. It was here before us, and will be here after us, and we cannot change it. We just have to live in it. There are a number of known routes through the maze. Some intrepid explorer finds a new, shorter route. Should he have the right to put up a tollgate?

Me, I'd say not.

Justin.

---
--
You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.

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Technical Contribution == Does Something
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 21 2005 @ 06:36 AM EST
Software doesn't do anything. It has no conduct.

It's just text. It just sits there, like a recipe.

Stop the madness.

mickeym

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Another report from the UK Patent Office's Technical Contribution Workshops
Authored by: mikeprotts on Monday, March 21 2005 @ 03:27 PM EST
I also went to a Bristol meeting - Friday late afternoon. I arrived late
(Bristol traffic!), so I only briefly introduced myself, and had to gather the
others jobs as the discussions took place.

As said before, the scope was very limited, and there seemed to be a very tight
schedule with people rushing the attendees into making quick decisions. I felt
that the priority was getting it done quickly rather than correctly.

There was a reasonable mix by age, very few women, some suits, some jeans and
some in-between.

The system is that a set of patent applications are provided and some sample
definitions that should be used to see if the applications should stand or not.


The sample applications were extremely cut down - and the rules were that you
had to assume they were not obvious/prior art etc.

I found the sample patents to be pretty weak, but many others didn't. The
sample definitions were very poor - I think that most would be laughed out of
court.

Possibly most telling was the straw poll at the end. For each application, the
vote was should it be patentable or not. The patent officers voted in favour of
patents in every case - figures (some people left early, counting was confused
for software patents):

For Against Abstain
Case 1: 9 15 2
Case 2: 5 15 6
Case 3: 9 15 2
Case 4: 13 11 2
Case 5: 5 19 2

And in favour of patents generally:
Software: 5 16 2
Other : 22 3 1

There seemed to be a reluctance to have the last poll - but it was allowed after
some discussion.

Also I talked to some of the patent officers about making better use of the
internet. The attitude is that the information is published, so they already do
it. They don't seem to realise that it's almost impossible to find things
unless you get a pointer in the right direction.

Finally I had a long talk with someone whose company sells patented dvd
authoring software in Bristol. He was not prepared to accept that there was
anything wrong with a patent that would supress any future competition, even
when I suggested that if MS had a prior patent on dvd authoring (by buying
another company) they could put his company out of business purely with legal
costs.

Cheers
Mike

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