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Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 01:58 AM EST

Somebody doesn't like the EU Commission finding Microsoft guilty of antitrust violations and fining the company. The Senator from Microsoft's home state, Patty Murray, is speaking out against the EU Commission's decision, which is being officially announced today:

"'This ruling is yet another example of the EU assaulting a successful American industry and policies that support our economic growth,' said U.S. Senator Patty Murray, a Democrat from Microsoft's home state, Washington. . . .

"Murray called on the Bush administration to 'engage' the EU in settling the case. 'The EU has now directly attacked the authority of the United States and our economy in general,' she said in a statement. 'American jobs and economic interests are threatened,' she said."

Um. "Engage"? She doesn't mean sending in troops or anything, does she?

Joke.

Wait a sec. Who assaulted who? Isn't the issue whether Microsoft broke the law over there? If they did, does she suggest it shouldn't matter, because they simultaneously give Americans jobs? The article points out that corporations that do sufficient business in Europe are subject to their laws, something they could avoid by not doing business there. They could also avoid consequences by not breaking any laws. I believe that would entail reading them.

Microsoft is saying that they had no way of knowing they were breaking EU laws and that the fine is too high, because MS does only 30% of its business in Europe.

"Microsoft's chief European lawyer, Horacio Gutierrez, argued the EU's reported fine appeared to be twice what it should have been under guidelines of the European Commission, the EU's executive body, to account for the company's global operations. Microsoft does about 30 per cent of its business in Europe. . . .

"The company also argued it could not have known its behaviour would infringe EU law and thus it should not be fined at all. EU Competition Commissioner Mario Monti 'has said clearly the reason he wants a decision is to get a precedent, so clearly there isn't one currently,' Microsoft spokesperson Tom Brookes said."

Those MS foxes. So smooth and clever. The problem with that argument is the Commission could have fined them considerably more than they did. There will be a press conference later today, where Mr. Monti, brave soul, will address these issues. By the way, here's some financial information on Ms. Murray.

If Ms. Murray means troops, they'd better send some to grab Linus and toss him in the brig. There's no other way to clear this up. He's likely to keep coding otherwise. His high treason in writing Linux is killing the proprietary software industry, it seems. All you other coders better be ready to pay for what you've done too. Be ready, you evil GNU-ers. Mr. Palmisano, I think they mean you, too. A Microsoft representative, who spoke on a panel at a conference last week, wondered if there can even be a software industry if there is open source:

"How will the for-profit software industry fair [sic] if the open-source model continues to proliferate? According to Microsoft Distinguished Engineer Jim Gray, it might not survive. Commenting during a panel discussion at the Software Development Conference and Expo West (SD West) in Santa Clara, Calif., last week, Gray asked: 'How will there be a software industry if there's open source?'"

So, the solution to this problem is, what, Microsoft Distinguished Engineer? Kill off free and open source software? That sounds fair. No antitrust issues there.

The only problem with imprisoning all the coders is a lot of them have day jobs. This could have an impact on the economy too, especially the software industry. Mr. Gates was bemoaning the other day that fewer and fewer young people in the US are choosing to become programmers. He went to MIT and other colleges and universities to encourage students to choose computers as a career, without much success.

Psst. It may be because they heard about outsourcing, and they're no dopes. They're good at math at MIT. They've figured out that 2 + 2 = no jobs here soon. Or maybe they're worried about being asked someday to deep-dive into SCO's code and then disappearing. They never did find those missing MIT guys SCO told us about, did they? Just poof. Maybe they got sucked into a black hole. Or the Bermuda Triangle got 'em. It's just safer to go into finance, all things considered.

The headline about the survival of the for-profit software industry is appropriately misleading: "At SD West: Microsoft exec asks if for-profit software can survive open source". Survival? Yipes. Sounds like it's a murder rap, Linus. Manslaughter, at a minimum. You'd best pack a bag of toiletries and things and have it ready. I'm pretty sure they let you have a toothbrush, even in solitary.

The misleading part is the implication that open source means it's for free. It's free as in speech, not as in beer, folks, remember? I just spent a pretty penny on Mandrake's latest. I know I can get it for free, but I like the convenience of having the CDs, so I can easily reinstall from time to time. I also like Mandrake, in part because they like the GPL, so I like to pay them.

But if the whole world decided they'd rather have free as in beer software and pay for services instead, whose business is it? We're the customers. We get to buy what we like. It's called free market capitalism. Microsoft believes in capitalism, doesn't it?

I'd like to explain something to Mr. Gray. Here's how capitalism works. You who wish to sell to us need to figure out what we like and provide it. You can't ask governments to force us to like your products. Well, you can, but that's not capitalism. Free markets, remember? Free? You know what the word free means, don't you? As in free to choose? Free will? Freedom?

Tip: In case you want to know, here's what I don't like about your proprietary software. You've locked it up so tight I can't enjoy using it. And I can't see the source code. That bothers me, because there's been a history of security issues and backdoors and calling home and ports left open by default. I don't like that. I'm not crazy about the business ethics you display. Then there's the EULA. It makes me feel like a criminal. It reads like terms of probation.

So there you are. If you could please fix your product to meet my software needs, and work on your business practices so as to build up some trust, I'd be happy to consider your product. Well, you'd have to make your software more secure first, too, but you know that. And hold the DRM. Deal?

I didn't think so. Well, we all have choices. But if you insist on selling a product increasing numbers of people don't want, you're not being killed off. It's called suicide.


  


Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU | 411 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Typos, corrections here please.
Authored by: PJ on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 03:58 AM EST
Please record my mistakes for posterity here, so I can find them. Thanks.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:19 AM EST
Good idea,
Just get Bush and his cronies to complain to the EU commision, afterall Bush is
only the most disliked American amongst Europeans.
I was also dissapointed at how low the fine is. The fine should really reflect
the damaged caused by such M$ practises.
I hope their appeal will turn against their favour and rectify this shortfall.

-Anonymous in the UK

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:19 AM EST
The US is finding it hard to accept that it does not rule the world.

[ Reply to This | # ]

EU Fines
Authored by: SkArcher on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:20 AM EST
Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.<br>
<br>
Corporations doing business in the EU are liable for gross international
turnover to be assessed for determination of fines (which is why IBM does not
operate in the UK or any other EU state - instead, they use a wholy owned
subsidiary, IBM UK, IBM DE etc - this also changes their tax status in EU
law).<br>
<br>
The logic behind this is that localised sales in the EU is used to support
international operations.<br>
<br>
Microsoft could have been fined up to 10 times the amount the EU commision has
fined them, which would be some $42 billion. So even if the EU commission was
only fining on EU earnings, the fine given would be legal - they didn't specify
the fine as a %age, only the maximum fine is specified as such.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/36445.html">El
Reg article</a><br>
<br>
On the subject of EU dislike of US business: It isn't a surprise. Governements
don't like having money leave the local economy. Munich went for a Linux
deployment in part because it keeps the expenses in the local economy where they
enrich the people who will later be paying the local taxes. Spending money of MS
products drains that money from the economy. It is "buy local" on a
bigger scale, nothing more.<br><br>Linux allows the employment of
local techs, local implementation for better results... simple really.

---
irc.fdfnet.net #groklaw

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • EU Fines - Authored by: HawkEye on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:00 AM EST
    • EU Fines - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:50 AM EST
  • EU Fines - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 08:15 AM EST
"Engage"
Authored by: numtek on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:25 AM EST
They said that before. It was back when americans didn't like the idea of their
soldiers appearing in front of the international war-crime-court in the
Netherlands.
It is the fact that we (also) need the USA to get world peace, otherwise.....

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • "Engage" - Authored by: Grokker on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 11:44 AM EST
So much for the origin of US/EU conflicts
Authored by: TobiasBXL on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:32 AM EST
This is precious.

When will American politicians learn that Europe is not the 55th state of the
United States of America and that we have our own laws and sanctions regarding
antitrust?

These statements are just one more proof that much of the transatlantic
conflicts originate from the US. I even read op-eds that demand that the US
ruling against MS must be taken as a precedence in Europe and be adapted by the
EC.

Sorry, those people are not doing themselves a favour because in the long run
their arrogant and ignorant perception of other souvereign nations and
organisations will backfire on the US.

BTW. I don't know why everybody complains about the fine being too high. It's
not. It's just above 1% of MS netto income while Monti could have made it 10%
legally. In fact Monti has done MS a favour. But let's see what other
restrictions are required of MS.

regards,
TobiasBXL

[ Reply to This | # ]

Interesting article in Business Week
Authored by: DeepBlue on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:37 AM EST

Interesti ng article about the continued growth of the Mainframe and IBM's use of Open Source Software. Makes a good counterpoint to the Microsoft drivel we normally have to read!

---
Even David needed some stones in his sling to topple Goliath ........

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: DBLR on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:41 AM EST
Being former Washington resident, I think one reason the Senator from
Microsoft's home state is speaking up on behalf of MS is that she wants to be
reelected. That and she believes all the BS that comes out of Bills mouth and
that Microsoft can do no wrong.

Charles

---
The Truth = problems for SCOG and it HURTS..

[ Reply to This | # ]

Its recently been discovered...
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:44 AM EST
.... that the Earth's movement through space exhbits a bizare twist -
literally.

In fact careful observation over a number of decades shows that the Earth
doesn't revolve around its center but around a point nearer to the surface.

Scientists have calculated that this point is situated just below the surface of
the planets smaller Northern landmass.

Astrologers have welcomed the news as it has helped them to understand certain
bizare behavioural characteristics. One astrologer was quoted as saying
"Ah!! so the world *does* revolve around the Americans!".

SJG

[ Reply to This | # ]

Does a wedding follow the engagement?
Authored by: grouch on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:51 AM EST
I thought Mr. Bush was already married. Mrs. Bush might not like the Senator
playing match-maker like this.

Is the fine supposed to be the dowry? I bet the wedding gift would be a nice
cushy deal in Europe like Microsoft got here. How's that big
competition-restoring Final Decree working out? Has it restored capitalism and a
competitive market yet? I haven't noticed any change, but then, I haven't been
shopping for software of low enough quality to compete at Microsoft's level.

Thanks, PJ, for making me laugh when I wanted to throw things. You were in fine
form for this one. Maybe you should add remedial "Free market" classes
to the curricula. SCO failed your remedial GPL classes, but maybe there's still
hope that Microsoft can learn about capitalism.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: eggplant37 on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:55 AM EST
"The company also argued it could not have known its behaviour would infringe EU law and thus it should not be fined at all. EU Competition Commissioner Mario Monti 'has said clearly the reason he wants a decision is to get a precedent, so clearly there isn't one currently,' Microsoft spokesperson Tom Brookes said."
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. MS is quite aware of their activities toward squashing competition against its marketshare. They've had 25 years to get extremely good at it.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Go easy on Jim Gray
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:07 AM EST
Jim has done great work on databases in the past (for example, Gray and Reuter
is the canonical text on making robust databases). He was hired by MS as part of
a general scooping-up of good CS folk. His opinions are generally worth study.
(Check out his papers on computer trends at http://research.microsoft.com/~Gray/
)

The comment on Open Source was a sound bite. I hope Jim clarifies what he meant
later.

>to this problem is, what, Microsoft Distinguished Engineer?
>Kill off free and open source software?

Feels like putting words into Jim's mouth. Observed MS behaviour is unfriendly
(to put it mildly) to GPL software, but Jim's attitude may not completely
reflect his company's.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Don't get carried away
Authored by: amcguinn on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:10 AM EST
Obviously in doing business in Europe, Microsoft is subject to local laws, but be wary of cheering the EU authorities too loudly. The "rule of law" is always a joke when applied to competition law (which can work both ways, as Microsoft have shown on their home turf), and I'm sure that the current judgement was motivated partly by anti-Americanism, and partly because, hey, fining foreign companies is money for nothing.

That said, I'm not weeping for Microsoft. Seeing two institutions as despicable as the European Commission and Microsoft duking it out has to be good for a giggle. Just don't go assuming your enemy's enemy is your friend, because he isn't. Once MS learns (maybe from the RIAA) how to handle EU institutions, things will be different.

Note by the way that I'm talking about the European Commission. Fines in some juristictions are levied by bodies called "courts", but that's not the EU way. The government just makes its decisions.

To be fair, it seems Microsoft can appeal to an actual court.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Rubbish
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:11 AM EST
"The article points out that corporations that do sufficient business in
Europe are subject to their laws, something they could avoid by not doing
business there. They could also avoid consequences by not breaking any laws. I
believe that would entail reading them.

Microsoft is saying that they had no way of knowing they were breaking EU
laws."

Erm... last I heard, ignorance of a law was no defence. "I didn't know it
was illegal to shoot you in the head. You'll have to let me off". You're
doing business in the EU, you have to agree to their laws. Whether you've read
them or not, they are there, publically available and if in doubt I'm sure MS
could hire a solicitor (attorney for you americans) and ask them if they are
doing everything right.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Tomas on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:17 AM EST
Sadly that does sound a lot like Patty (yes, she's one of MY senators). *sigh*

She's done a lot of good stuff, but her thinking often seems rather
short-sighted and selfish. She was also one of the local voices supporting MS
when the US government was taking them to task for being a monopoly.

"Pay no attention to the [person] behind the curtain."

---
Tom
en.gin.eer en-ji-nir n 1: a mechanism for converting caffeine into designs.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Of course they couldn't know
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:23 AM EST
"The company also argued it could not have known its behaviour would
infringe EU law."

I mean they've been abusing their monopoly position for so long in the US and in
the EU, and they've never been seriously fined. How could they know laws applied
to them too...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Greebo on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:24 AM EST
Hi,

You can find her full statement here.

If anyone is in the area you can also pop in for Weekly coffee with the Senator

I'm sure she'd like to hear some opposing views.

Isn't there somewhere where you can find out who's been lobbying her as well? It would be interesting if M$ was linked to her in some official way - funding etc.

Cheers,

Greebo

---
-----------------------------------------
Recent Linux Convert and Scared Cat Owner

[ Reply to This | # ]

EU or not?
Authored by: jmc on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:24 AM EST
I know we've said this before, but I like the way that M$ (M€ perhaps?) say it's
nothing to do with the EU and they didn't know anything about EU law now, yet
they are happy to know all about EU law to get around US judges delivering
answers they don't like when it comes to persecuting Lindows.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • EU or not? - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:13 AM EST
Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: dedmundson on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:26 AM EST
'The EU has now directly attacked the authority of the United States and our economy in general,' she said in a statement. 'American jobs and economic interests are threatened,' she said."

Whereas, in truth, it's Senator Murray who is attacking the Sovereignty of each and every EU member state by denying them the right to enforce their own laws within their borders. MSFT don't have to sell their goods here, but in choosing to conduct business in the EU, they agree to abide by our laws.

I'm also not sure that Senator Murray has done the maths; MSFT gain 30% of their global business here in the EU, and the maximum fine is 10% of global turnover. The options seem to be either MSFT pay the fine (which is very much less than 10%) or stop doing business in the EU and loose all 30%! Which one puts more of her precious voters' jobs at risk? More importantly, if those American jobs she's protecting are the jobs of people committing criminal (or even just unlawful) acts, surely they should be at risk!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Hypocrisy
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:27 AM EST
And how, exactly, is this childish "world turnover no fair" plea consistent with the US inaction on implementing the WTO ruling on FSCs, from which Microsoft gains substantial benefit. Not that we should expect consistency or reasoned argument from the present US administration. The game they like is "heads I win, tails you lose".

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Hypocrisy - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 11:23 PM EST
Can Americans do as they please, abroad?
Authored by: gateone on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:39 AM EST
Hello everyone,

I sometimes wonder who had invused (so many, gladly not all) U.S. American
citizens with the strong believe that they can behave outside the U.S. just as
they please?!

When me, a European Citizen, comes to the United States, I will already on the
plane, be constantly reminded that I have to "play by the rules set by U.S.
Law". Ever since 9-11, you won't believe how brutally direct and unsoftened
this is thaught into ever poor traveler who has chosen the U.S. as destination
for his or her voyage.

However, I have seen so many U.S. citizens, no matter what educational and
social background (and this I see as a real problem), who come to Europe - both
for business and play - and truely believe that nothing can harm them no matter
what they do, that "finall", they sort of arrived in the "Wild
West" (or rather "Wild East" from a U.S. perspective).

When I was still working as PR consultant, years back, I have worked with a lady
from the United States who wanted to bring over and market a business service
here in Germany and eventually all over the European Community. For your
background, she was a Havard alumna, so there was some real intellect and some
high education combined with a brilliant social background in that woman. She
actually believed, however, she could PR her service using illegal
"mega-guerilla" tactics here, get away with it (because she is a U.S.
citizen and thus automatically not subject to local law, and that everybody will
instantly jump onto her horse and she would become rich and famous here. We
strongly consulted her to play along the rules and stick to European Law. When
she said she won't do it, nothing would harm her, she is a U.S. citizen and as
such imune to any European law. As we would not get this believe out of her,
even with the aid of a German AND a U.S. lawyer, we turned the job down, even if
it promised a lot of money...

She went through with it and eventually was totally unsuccessful as Europeans
are more used to a softer tonality in marketing and PR; also, she face some
really hefty law suits and was fined quite heavily. The verdict came that strong
as she remained completely ignorant even infront of the judge and the state
attorney. After the entire thing, she went back to the U.S. totally frustrated.

Now POOR Mircosoft. As if they didn't know about European Law. I am sorry, but I
am not buying this from Microsoft. I know - through my job - quite some people
of Microsoft Germany. Excuse me, but they do perfectly know what they are doing
over here. And the poor and thin thing about them "only" doing 30% of
their business in Europe - hey, compared with the world entire, isn't that
actually quite a good share, and thinking a bit further applying some
mathematics, doesn't that calculate to an absolute market dominance here in
Europe?! Isn't this JUST what the European Commission is telling us all and
foremost poor little Microsoft that can pay the fine out of their pocket money?!


Very very strange, and do you really think that this fine and its consequences
would cut a single job both for Microsoft U.S. AND for Microsoft in Europe?! No,
definitively not.

I am shocked to see how naive some people seem to be...

Greetings from Europe.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT : Redhet make a Profit.
Authored by: Greebo on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:41 AM EST
Seems like RedHat are making a profit on the software subscription side of the business.

Up 72% from last year! Last year $6.6M loss, this year $14M profit!

Weird. I thought you could only make a profit from Linux through Litigation?!

Hey Darl! Maybe you should have a look at RedHat's business model? It's really clever - Make something someone actually wants and then charge for support - wow! So Unconsitutional and anti-American!

Greebo

---
-----------------------------------------
Recent Linux Convert and Scared Cat Owner

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: DFJA on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:44 AM EST
A thought - Microsoft have said that they will appeal the decision.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but sometimes when a convicted criminal appeals the
decision of a judge, the appeal decides that the sentence was too lenient, and
applies an even more severe punishment. So if there is an appeal, and new
evidence comes to light (such as collusion with SCO and other dubious practices)
the appeal could dramatically increase the punishment, possibly to a level that
will actually make a difference.

Two questions:

1. In an appeal, is evidence that comes to light after the original judgement
admissible in an appeal hearing, if it's relevant to the case

2. Does anyone know enough about the EU court system that is dealing with this,
and whether this scenario is possible?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates and students...
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:57 AM EST
PJ wrote: Mr. Gates was bemoaning the other day that fewer and fewer young people in the US are choosing to become programmers. He went to MIT and other colleges and universities to encourage students to choose computers as a career, without much success.

Psst. It may be because they heard about outsourcing, and they're no dopes. [...]

Or maybe they have figured out that given the way the software industry is evolving, it is much more profitable to study law and become an IP lawyer. Unless some trends are reversed, this industry will employ more lawyers than programmers in a few years time...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Kilz on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:09 AM EST
It is sad that the EU did something that the US government should have done long ago. Micro$oft is a monopoly and uses unfair practices to enforce that monopoly. The settlement in the USA was a joke. Microsoft's punishment was to give away free Microsoft software, Wow I bet that really hurt(extreme sarcasm). All it did was strengthen Micro$ofts monopoly by issuing more of its software.
Microsoft should stop incorporating software into its product and then undercutting the price of the software to 0. The newest version of this is the "pop up blocker" that will be installed in the next Windows XP service pack.
Its as good thing they cant use this strategy on Linux. After all its already available for free.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:10 AM EST
I am quite shocked to hear these remarks. Apparently Ms Murray is completely
unaware what she's doing. Does she really think EU-laws are void just because of
American interests ? The US has no "authority" in the EU. None.
Period. Such actions are *exactly* the reason why the US government has such a
bad image here in Europe. According to a recent poll, only 31% of Germans think
the US government can be trusted (down from >60% in 2000). Only one third !
In other EU countries numbers are similar. This affects everything, beginning
with trade relations and ending at the war against terror. The last example
where the results of the last vote in Spain, which was mainly a matter of not
trusting the US.

Contrary to what US-conservative media are distributing, this is *not* leftist
anti-Americanism. I know firsthand that many European conservatives think alike,
It is simply a reaction to a number of such incidents like this where American
politicians seem to confuse the EU with a US colony.

US citizens here should write to Sen Murray and point out what she is doing in
respect to general relations with the EU. IOt should be pointed out to her that
the EU is NO US colony. It should be pointed out to her that if a company is
doing business within the EU, EU laws have to be kept. Finally it should point
out that the US has no "authority" in the EU. Or does that mean, if I
do business in the US I can safely ignore US law, by authority of the EU ???

[ Reply to This | # ]

Software, Bottled Water, and Auto Mechanics
Authored by: Mark Levitt on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:12 AM EST
Yes: FOSS is likely to hurt the "software" industry.

I read something recently that got me thinking about the business and economics
of software.

Closed-source software companies make money by owning the source code to the
software they sell and keeping it secret.

In general economic terms, producers make money by taking raw material and
adding value to it. It's this value-add that people are willing to pay for.

Sand is very cheap. Find a way to turn it into a material that you can etch
millions of transistors onto and suddenly your sand commands a premium profit.
Intel does this with computer chips.

Sometimes, the value-add isn't a physical thing. Coca-Cola takes tap water, runs
it through a simple filter, bottles it, and manages to sell it for a 3000%
mark-up. The value-add is the image.

And sometimes, the value-add is absolutly nothing to do with the raw material,
but some knowledge you have about it. Auto mechanics don't make cars or car
parts. But, they have the knowledge required to fix a car when it goes wrong.

How does this relate to software? Well, closed-source software companies, like
SCO and Microsoft, want you to believe that software is like the sand in the CPU
example.

Look at how they talk about it: Microsoft claims removing the media player from
the OS would "break the operating system". As if there was some sort
of chemical or mechanical interconnection between the two. SCO claims the
'millions of line' or source code they claim in Linux "could not be easily
seperated".

Both of these claims revolve around the same idea; That software is a physical
thing that you can squish together in the right way to make something new and
unique.

But, we know that's not true. Microsoft engineers don't sit in their offices
with bunsen burners and beakers boiling bits of source code in hopes of
producing a faster version of Windows. So, what is the value-add of Microsoft?

It's two things: Knowledge and image. They hire people who have studied
computers, who know how to make the physical machine behave they way they want.
They spend considerable time building an image and a brand for their products.
The colours, icons, sounds, and splash screens are all part of creating an
image.

So, what is happening to the software industry? Well, people are starting to
realize that the value-add of closed-source companies is not the possession of
source code and the means to transform it into useful software. Rather, it is
the knowledge they have of computers and the image they create.

Once people realize that the value-add is knowledge and image, they start to
understand that anyone with sufficient knowledge can produce a competing product
and can then price the image accordingly.

This is what free/open source software is doing. RedHat and Mandrake make money,
not becuase they are the only ones who can produce a Linux distribution, but
because people will pay them a premium for the knowledge they have to do it.
It's cheaper for most people to pay them for this knowledge, rather than acquire
it themselves. They pay RedHat and Mandrake a certain amount for image as well.
Lets leave off the support and maintenance issues for now, although they are
important.

Now, this is just like cars. Yes, the auto makers are like the sand to CPU
examples. We pay them because they take raw materials of steel and plastic and
turn them into cars.

But auto mechanics? The information about how the car works and how to fix it is
well publicized. If you want to learn how to fix your car, you can. But you
don't. Either you don't have the time, or you don't care to learn. For whichever
reason, people are willing to pay a premium for someone else's knowledge about
how to fix cars.

Lawyers do this as well. The law is public information. Anyone can go to a
Library and learn the law. But, we pay certain people for the knowledge they
have.

Like all things in a free market, the price we pay these holders-of-knowledge
reflects the level of effort it takes them to acquire this knowledge and the
perceived amount of time it would take to learn it ourselves.

So, Free/Open source is not "destroying software". Rather, it is
forcing software into a new economic model. Painful, yes. If people who made
money under the old model cannot adapt, they will eventually stop making money.
But that is, as Edlen Moglen quoted, "the creative destruction of
capitalism," and is essential in a free market.

So, I'm sorry, Mr. Microsoft engineer, if you're put out of work because your
management can't or won't adapt to new business models. You can get in line
behind the horse and buggy makers who were put out of work by Henry Ford and his
assembly line.

Free software is merely opening up the knowledge to more people, just like car
makers publish books on how to fix cars and lawyers train other lawyers to use
the law.

So yes, you'll have to compete by a) knowing more than the next guy and b) being
better at doing something useful with that knowledge.

But, sorry, you no longer get to make money just by knowing something nobody
else is allowed to see. The market has wised up to the lie.









[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State Senator Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: TerryL on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:12 AM EST
How can Microsoft claim (and expect to get away with and be believed) that they
didn't know the laws in Europe?

They do 30% of their business here, 30% is a big chunk, presumably they hire
local lawyers to look after their business here. Even if they relied on their
lawyers in Redmont or wherever, presumably those guys can read and would make a
point of finding out what the legal system they were operating in was? I mean,
if I opened a business in the US I'd be responsible for making sure I abided by
US laws, and claiming "I didn't know" wouldn't get me very far
(although it might be a more mitigating plea for a one-man-band than a large
multinational).

Yes, I guess a lot of people in Europe might moan about Americans, (and American
like to moan about people moaning about them and why isn't everything like it is
"back home") but that's par for the course for being the worlds super
power. When us Brits had an empire that the sun never set on I'm pretty sure it
was us the world moaned about (some still do - it's our role in life). Get used
to it guys, being No. 1 makes you the prime target.

But I think that's a side issue, I don't think this case is about being
Anti-American, it's about enforcing the local laws. Any company (American,
European, Asian or whatever) that wants to do business in Europe is expected to
abide by those laws here, just as any company wanting to do business in the US
would be expected to abide by US laws over there.




---
All comment and ideas expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those
of any other idiot...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Open Source does not threaten the Software Industry
Authored by: aug24 on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:17 AM EST
Only a few per cent of programmers are working for people like Oracle, Microsoft
etc anyway. Most of us are working for companies making bespoke code for their
business.

There is no threat to the industry; only to a few companies whose products don't
offer as much value as they want you to believe they do.

Justin.

---
--
You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Innovation
Authored by: the_flatlander on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:20 AM EST
They could also avoid consequences by not breaking any laws. I believe that would entail reading them.
Look, don't be silly... When you are as busy innovating as Microsoft has been these past many years, you don't have time for niceties like understanding and obeying the law. That's for the other guy. And that's Microsoft's chief innovation, you see: you can earn more if you ignore the law.

The Flatlander

Sometimes reality serves as a better parody than anything a comedian could even hope to come up with.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Woad_Warrior on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:37 AM EST
a couple things;
maybe if G.W.B. were to speak to them, the EU would jack the fine up and impose
even better sanctions than unbundling media player. gee, wouldn't that be a
shame? hehehee

can proprietary stuff survive? sure. just because my os is free to use, doesn't
mean all my software has been downloaded for free. they'll just have to write
software that is much better and/or doesn't have a freeware equivalent. (to get
my money anyway)

and besides, what business is it of the esteemed (?) senator if the EU decides
to punish a lawbreaker? and the "i didn't know" excuse has never been
an acceptable defense

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Steve Martin on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:43 AM EST
<p><blockquote><i>
It's just safer to go into finance, all things considered.
</i></blockquote>
I understand there's a bright future for litigators...
</p>


---
"When I say something, I put my name next to it." -- Isaac Jaffee, "Sports
Night"

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:09 AM EST
The term "engage" Senator Murray uses is one thing, but the other term she uses is even more interesting and more revealing:
'The EU has now directly attacked the authority of the United States and our economy in general,' she said in a statement.
She uses terminology from war: engage, attack. Looks like she perfectly fits into the "parallel universe" problem not only SCO is suffering from, but also GW Bush, Blair, and Aznar.

So far I am not aware that the EU or any of their members has been attacking the US. Or did I miss something the past days and do I now have to quickly grab the gas mask waiting under my desk, bring the children to a safe place and wait for the primetime news on CNN when the EU is declaired the next aisle of evil?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Linus is in California?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:27 AM EST
Isn't Linus in California?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Mike B on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:27 AM EST
Apparently she favors taking stronger action against the EU for fining Microsoft
than she does captuting Bin Laden...

This is the same senator that praised Osama Bin Laden.

Osama... Microsoft... She has an affinity for nasties it seems.

http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/1/13/160207

It also shows you that it's not just Republicans or conservatives who carry the
water for corps. BOTH parties do. Murray is one of the most left wing of the
Senate.

You can't vote for either side and guarantee action against corporate abuse.
After all, Enron, Global Crossing, et all happened under Clinton, they only
collapsed when the bubble burst post-9/11...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Admission of guilt by MS
Authored by: cybervegan on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:32 AM EST
I feel that MS Saying that they "didn't know" about laws within the EU
is particularly telling of their mentality, and could be viewed as an admission
of guilt.

MS has local subsidiaries all round the globe. It's simply incompetant not to
know the laws of the lands in which you are selling your product, especially
when you have local offices there. Don't they employ local people to run them?


Anyway, I think it's a widely held opinion the "Ignorance is no defense in
the eyes of the law" isn't it?

They're so mercinary: I don't think they'll stop at anything, particularly wrt
ethics or illegality. MS is just the biggest example of organised crime in the
world!

Arrrgh!

-cybervegan


---
Stand and fight we do consider
Reminded of an inner pact between us
That's seen as we go
And ride there
In motion
To fields in debts of honor
Defending

[ Reply to This | # ]

MS "buys" yet another politician...
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:32 AM EST
Appears that a Democrat got bought by Microsoft. I guess MS money has been
passed out on BOTH sides of the isle.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT: Open source in action
Authored by: Rcomian on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:45 AM EST
I'm preaching to the choir here, but I'm mainly posting so that you have a
concrete example of one way in which open source is really working 'out there'.
It's kind of in response to the FUD against open source.

I'm a software developer by trade, but I work on internal software for a
company. A friend of my brother recently approached me asking to develop some
chat software for a website she's trying to set up. The website will be
commercial, so she's willing to pay me to develop the software for her.
Now, I've not developed a chat engine before. I could do this from scratch, but
that's a big job, prone to usability and security glitches for a long time until
it's all worked out and stable. We've had a look at the products already
available, but none of them offer the exact set of features she wants.
What to do?
Well, I'm taking a chat program which has been developed under an open source
licence that's pretty close to where we want to get to and I'm adding in a whole
bunch of features to it.
For this, I'll be paid. The website she's setting up gets exactly the chat
program that's needed, and any changes which I make which are not _business
critical_ to the website will be offered to the original project, so it will
benefit too, if it wants the changes.
I'd be more than happy to develop software in this manner full-time, I'm sure
there'd be a market, once FOSS is fully accepted.
Now as far as the website is concerned, the fact that it's open source is
irrelevant. A chat program is needed, and there's nothing that fits the bill.

If I was doing this full time as a company, would I be able to make money?
Provided I could find clients who want new/modified/configured software, yes.
How does this compete with proprietry software. Well, proprietry software didn't
fill the need at the right price (neither did open-source). We could have gone
to a software company and said "your software is close, could we add this
and this to it?" It might work, but they'll charge whatever they like,
since no-one else could add this functionality. I also believe someone went to
Microsoft and asked for office to be translated to their language and were
willing to pay _all_ costs. MS refused.
So we found that by starting with a piece of free software, it cuts development
time, improves overall quality and reduces costs. Development costs are
competitive, if I charge too much she can go ask someone else to do it instead.
So if all software was available for free, how would my 'company' make money?
For instance, if it was in general use, the chat program would eventually be
available to everyone at no cost.
Well, by that point, I'll have already made my money. I'm being paid for the
work in the first instance, having 100 or 1000 licences make absolutely no
difference to me. Now if all those licencees were asking me questions, then that
would make a difference, so I'd charge a support cost.
So speaking metaphorically, I've paid for this meal, but how would I pay for the
_next_?
Well, until all software becomes complete, perfect and free, there'd be a job
for me. And since new business ideas are neverending, and new software is
required all the time, I don't see work drying up in the near future.

What I see is the possibility of a healthy software industry, driven entirely by
open source.

[ Reply to This | # ]

YES i'm trolling
Authored by: phrostie on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:51 AM EST
those d@## rebulicans, people have been telling me over and over again how they
are all bought by MS and that all that money that MS paid to Al Gores election
effort meant nothing. i'm glad we can trust the Democrats at least.

oh, wait,,,,
i guess they are all the same. this should piss a few people off on /.

---
=====
phrostie
Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of DOS
and danced the skies on Linux silvered wings.
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/snafuu

[ Reply to This | # ]

Ask the Senator not to defend Microsoft's miss-behavior...
Authored by: PSaltyDS on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:56 AM EST
Senator Murray has a web page with a form for emailing the senator at:
http://murray.senate.gov/email/index.cfm

I sent an email to Senator Murray through this page, under the subject of
"Commerce" (the subjects are from a pull-down menu). I would suggest
that those who can write clear, polite, factual opinions should do so through
that medium. Trolls and rabid M$-bashers need not bother, and wouldn't help.
Demanding the death of Microsoft won't help. Consider this point: Microsoft
without its bullying and strong arm tactics would have to compete on price and
quality of product. They would do so. They would produce better products for
beter prices. They would be a better company. It won't kill them, it'll make
them better.

More cynical ones might be assuming that Microsoft "owns" this senator
and gets its bidding done, but that is extreme and unlikely. MS of course must
have some influence, as any multi-Gigabuck company that employs thousands will.
But the senator has influence over MS too. It is possible for the senator to
point out that MS is injuring its standing by its behavior, and maybe even
embarassing its friends. The point about complaining over EU decisions while
simultaneously shopping around over seas for a court that would slam Lindows is
a good example.


"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insuficiently advanced."
Geek's Corolary to Clarke's Law

[ Reply to This | # ]

Code Words
Authored by: Ruidh on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:58 AM EST
You have to remember that when Microsoft says "software industry" they
mean themselves. In their view, they have a right to be the source of any
sortware they think you need. So when they ask "How will the software
industry survive." They mean "How will Microsoft survive."

They miss the fact that the vast amjority of software written whether measured
in lines of code or value is custom code written for a specific client to solve
a business need. The software market is many times larger than the retail
software market and this software market coexists just fine with FOSS. In fact,
this market thrives on FOSS. Relying on Linus or the Apache team or the Samba
team helps their business much more than relying on Microsoft.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 08:06 AM EST
So how much does Microsoft donate to her campain?

[ Reply to This | # ]

MSFT's lawyer Gutierrez failed at his jobQ
Authored by: Tsu Dho Nimh on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 08:09 AM EST
"The company also argued it could not have known its behaviour would
infringe EU law "

Well, DUH! Wasn't that what Microsoft's chief European lawyer, Horacio
Gutierrez, was supposed to do for them? Make sure they were operating within
the law?

Or is his role merely that of a mob lawyer, trying to keep them out of trouble
for breaking laws that cramp their business model?

[ Reply to This | # ]

EU business like the GPL
Authored by: kberrien on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 08:19 AM EST
"something they could avoid by not doing business there. They could also avoid consequences by not breaking any laws." - PJ

Sound just like the whole GPL issue. If you don't want to follow the rules, don't use it.

The real problem with doing business in the EU, and using GPL software/code - seems to be not that its unfair, etc. Corporations just don't seem to want to follow the rules.

New bumper stickers? The GPL doesn't kill IP, greedy corporations kill IP - or something like that.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 08:29 AM EST
> It's just safer to go into finance, all things considered.

Law. That's where the money is these days. And as an added bonus it's unlikely
to be offshored.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 08:39 AM EST
Murray: 'The EU has now directly attacked the authority of the United States and our economy in general'

I'd just like to point out, the United States has *no* authority over here.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: wllacer on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 08:40 AM EST
Just pls. go on ... if you want the growing rift between the US and the EU still
wider.
It's obvious the USA is speedly squandering the goodwill it earned among most
europeans during WWII and the cold war, and the comments and vocabulary of Sen.
Murray are truly sad, and will spoll oil into the fire if it's caught by the
mainstream press. I only hope GWB's government doesn't pay the least attention
to her(?)
BTW Is not M$ a CONVICTED monopolist in the US?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 08:53 AM EST
As we say in London "come and have a go if you think you're hard
enough!"

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Off topic - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 11:00 AM EST
Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 08:55 AM EST
At least here in Germany, what we've learned from the Americans (among other
things) is the meaning of freedom, liberty and democracy and that'S something my
generation apreciates really much.

However, I learned at school, that one of the basic fundaments of democracy is
the seperation of power. Executive, legislative and juristiction.

So, tell me ... how can it happen that a representative of a country's
legislative messes with decisions made by another countrys courts ???

Seems that, while we learned, some others forgot ...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Why I don't code..
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 08:59 AM EST
They talk about people not going into the programming field and such, heres my
take on it:

I don't take coding up as a career because:

* Every time I turn around MS changes things with their Embrace and Extend
philosophy so that I don't see much of an investment in choosing a career in
coding if what I just learned is continusly changed making my education obsolite
even before I have a chance to use it.

* MS doesn't play nice with other programmers

* Computer related jobs _especially_ programming are increasingly going over
seas (thus no future)

* Many of my close friends (people with great skills, mind you) who have degrees
are working in pizza places and such.

Enough of my 'rant' - thats my two cents..

[ Reply to This | # ]

echo FUD
Authored by: laitcg on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 09:10 AM EST
"How will the for-profit software industry fair [sic] if the open-source model continues to proliferate? According to Microsoft Distinguished Engineer Jim Gray, it might not survive. Commenting during a panel discussion at the Software Development Conference and Expo West (SD West) in Santa Clara, Calif., last week, Gray asked: 'How will there be a software industry if there's open source?'"
As a programmer, it is easy to survive as a proprietary software company. Just develop software that is usefull, better than any other product out there (including security), and priced reasonably. Be it Open or Closed source.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • echo FUD - Authored by: Jude on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 12:08 PM EST
Microsoft - Hypocrites!
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 09:10 AM EST
So it is ok for Senator Murray to step in on behalf of Microsoft to tell Bush to
engage the EU?

But it is not OK for Lindows.com to seek protection by US courts from Microsoft
oversees court actions about it's trademark ruled generic in the United States?

Who is the criminal here?

EU, take Microsoft OUT!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray
Authored by: Waterman on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 09:25 AM EST
She is trying to protect her voters from the big, bad, EU. That is her job. However, she doesn't say anything about Lindows being beat up in the courts of Europe by M$, who is refusing to abide by what the US courts have said. Maybe that is because Lindows is a California company and not one from Washington state. Can't help out a fellow US company if it hurts one that pays for your election, now could we?

Another example of M$ speaking out of both sides of its mouth.

10% fine would have been better IMHO. EU had the guts to fine them which is more than the US did though.

------------------------------------------------------------
A Republican who thinks M$ should have been broken in two.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Timely response
Authored by: overshoot on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 09:31 AM EST
Well, it's turnabout time.

Our European colleagues here on GrokLaw have been (justly) unimpressed by the slow pace of the legal process in the USA. Now we find that after five years of investigation by the Competition Commission, there likely won't be a binding decision for another five years. According to my digital calculator (no sock removal required) that's a total of ten years, so SCO v. IBM in a bit over two years starts to sound positively hasty.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 09:44 AM EST
<blockquote>
The only problem with imprisoning all the coders is a lot of them have day
jobs. This could have an impact on the economy too, especially the software
industry. Mr. Gates was bemoaning the other day that fewer and fewer young
people in the US are choosing to become programmers. He went to MIT and other
colleges and universities to encourage students to choose computers as a career,
without much success.

Psst. It may be because they heard about outsourcing, and they're no dopes.
They're good at math at MIT. They've figured out that 2 + 2 = no jobs here soon.
Or maybe they're worried about being asked someday to deep-dive into SCO's code
and then disappearing. They never did find those missing MIT guys SCO told us
about, did they? Just poof. Maybe they got sucked into a black hole. Or the
Bermuda Triangle got 'em. It's just safer to go into finance, all things
considered.
</blockquote>

LOL okay there may be a tad of truth in there but i know where i'm at now we
still have 150+ poeple in every upper division Comp Sci course that we have yes
it's california so budget cuts make that happen a little more but there is still
a decently constant flow coming into this industry.
Just as there is a constant flow of these jobs going to India China exRussia
etc. PJ Hit it on the nose keep some of the jobs from going over there and
possibly you'll get your wish.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Jude on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 10:04 AM EST
...'American jobs and economic interests are threatened,' she said.

Now, that's a real howler! Bush doesn't give a rat's patootie about American jobs, and neither does Microsoft.

[ Reply to This | # ]

JIM GRAY OUT OF CONTEXT
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 10:27 AM EST
Careful, might be taking J. Gray out of context here.
He probably means that for-profit software companies need to bust their rears
and have better features if they want to stay [extremely] profitable.

Gray has done a lot for computer science, especially practical research and
applications of databases.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Senator Murray is a demagogue
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 11:15 AM EST
Like many politicians in many countries, Senator Murray is a demagogue. She
thinks, perhaps rightly, that she has to talk tough to get reelected, and
blaming the UN, the UE, or the French is guaranteed to get her an audience with
the increasing redneck population in the U.S.

Of course, Bush won't do a thing. There are enough bones of contention between
the U.S. and the EU that he doesn't need to open another conflict.

Increasingly, the U.S. finds itself like the guy who has a hammer in his hand:
everything in sight looks like a nail. This started with Clinton, and went into
high-gear with GW Bush. Along with this, came an increase in the contempt
towards those who don't go along with whatever bizarre idea the U.S.
administration pulls out of its ass every morning. Pretty sad if you ask me.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Microsoft Created Linux...
Authored by: subdude on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 11:25 AM EST
<quote>
The thing I'm puzzled by is how there will be a software industry if there's
open-source," Gray said, disagreeing with a fellow panelist over the
effects of open-source technology
</quote>

Here is my answer to Mr. Gray of Microsoft:

Perhaps if Microsoft hadn't been such a rapacious predator and wiped out almost
all the competition we would have a totally different IT market landscape.

The reason Open Source and Linux have such a large commercial following is
because of Microsoft's predatory business practices. All the natural competitive
forces have been destroyed creating a vacuum.

Only Linux and Open Source has survived because it doesn't have a single point
of assault - it can't be bought out and left to die, it can't be driven out of
business by anti-competitive pricing and it can't be legislated out of existence
because Linux has no geographical center!

Microsoft created a market where only Linux could survive so Linux grows and
flourishes!

Linux is a consequence of Microsoft predation - it's very Darwinian if you think
about it. Too bad this is a battle Microsoft is doomed to lose.

This isn't to suggest Microsoft is going away just yet but it's place in the
marketplace as the alpha company is coming to an end. Microsoft has proven over
and over that in a market where they do not hold a monopoly position they are a
resounding No. 2 or lower, many times losing money year after year - Hotmail,
MSN, X-Box, Passport, etc."

Best regards,

subdude

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: mojotoad on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 11:45 AM EST
I'd like to explain something to Mr. Gray. Here's how capitalism works. You who wish to sell to us need to figure out what we like and provide it. You can't ask governments to force us to like your products. Well, you can, but that's not capitalism. Free markets, remember? Free? You know what the word free means, don't you? As in free to choose? Free will? Freedom?

Time to trot out this old gem for contrast:

There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute nor common law.
-- Robert Heinlein

Cheers,
Matt

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 11:46 AM EST
Outsourcing kills more jobs in the US than a mild fine in the EU.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Precedents are irrelevant
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 11:52 AM EST
EU Competition Commissioner Mario Monti 'has said clearly the reason he wants a decision is to get a precedent, so clearly there isn't one currently,' Microsoft spokesperson Tom Brookes said."

That comment is misleading, the EU court does not need a precedent in order to be able to make a ruling.

Note that most European countries do not have a "common law"-based legal system. The court decides based on laws created by the legislature, and precedent cases do not have anywhere near the meaning they do in U.S. or British courts.

Of course, courts will in general be careful to make decisions that are compatible with prior decisions, but that's a secondary effect, and only relevant when the laws are unclear and a fitting interpretation needs to be agreed on. If someone clearly violates an existing law, the court can of course make a judgement even if that's the first time such a case has gone to court.

[ Reply to This | # ]

WMDs?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 11:55 AM EST
Maybe Bill'n Steve could convince the powers that be that the EU has WMDs
stashed out the wazoo?

After all, Big Ben is big enough to house missles full of chemicals (or school
cafeteria lunches) and that Eiffel Tower looks more like a communications
facility every day.

And Holland? Windmills my eye! Those are actually high intensity parabolic
lasers, now with 50% more lethality.

Sorry....just a thought....

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • WMDs? - Authored by: darthaggie on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 07:17 PM EST
Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 11:58 AM EST
Ms. Murray is a certifiable nut case. She actually praised Osama Bin Laden in
front of a group of Elementary school students while complaining that the U.S.
didn't do enough to understand the islamic terrorists.

Hopefully this woman will not be re-elected in the fall.

-J
from Moscow on the Willamette (otherwise know as Portland, OR)

[ Reply to This | # ]

pay for services or software
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 12:13 PM EST
I am struggling with understanding this new economy. I know it doesn't have to
be to extremes like FSF talks about. My question is if software is free (as in
beer or freedom) and customers just pay for services, how will I (as a
programmer) get paid?

If I work for a large company, then there is no problem. I write software,
other people to the services to bring in the money.

If I work for a small company or on my own, then I have to split my time or use
all my time in services to make money.

Basically, I love writing software and am not real excited about the service
industry. Am I the only one with these types of questions?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Patty Murray as Tweetie Bird
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 12:21 PM EST
Calm down folks. This is Patty Murray we are talking about, not exactly the brightest mind in the Senate, as evidenced by her pro-bin Laden remarks. Privately, I'm told, the reporters at one of our local (Seattle) newspapers refer to her as "Tweetie Bird." Bird brain would be just as apt.

Yes, her remarks are dumb. The EU, after all, has done no more that our federal antitrust did under both Clinton and Bush. It's hardly an act of war, as her words suggest. The fine, large as it sounds, is only about 1% of Microsoft's $50 billion war chest. Just remember that in her mind she's tweeting her little heart out for all those Microsoft donors and voters who keep her in power.

In DC politics, a state's senators almost always champion their state's major businesses. In the case of Microsoft, that means Washington State, since Gates has kept most of its major operations here. Open source advocates should to be delighted that Microsoft is stuck with Patty Murray as its senior senator. (Maria Cantwell, formerly of RealNetworks, is the other.)

A generation ago, the state was represented by a powerful pair of Democrats, Warren Magnuson and 'Scoop' Jackson (better know as the 'Senators from Boeing'). If they were still around, Microsoft would have nothing to fear from the feds and would be rolling in lucrative government contracts.

Instead it has the tweeting of Patty, who gets little respect in Congress and Murray, who's only modestly better and a new senator. Remember, the next best thing to having a friend in Congress is having a weak and inadept foe.

Patty Murray's home page (notice she looks a bit like a canary):

http://murray.senate.gov/

Her full Microsoft statement is at:

http://murray.senate.gov/news.cfm?id=219442

Maria Catwell's home page:

http://cantwell.senate.gov/

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: BigFire on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 12:23 PM EST
Yep. Senator Murray is also the dimbulb who praise Osama bin Laden for building
child care centers.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Technology Politics in Washington State
Authored by: KentWA on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 12:26 PM EST
The interesting thing here is who has not spoken up about this. Washington
State's economy is supported by two major industries Aerospace (Boeing) and
Tech, Microsoft is the big fish in the pond here in the Tech sector, but by far
not the only one.

Patty Murray is an Education Senator, she started her public service on the PTA.
However our other Senator Maria Cantwell understands technology, she left a job
as a Senior VP at RealNetworks to go to the Senate. I have not seen a thing as
of yet where she is voicing a issue with the EU development. I believe that you
may not either or if she does it will not likely be strong. She listens to the
people carefully and has sided with the smaller tech companies in the past over
the wishes of M$.

Interesting stuff on her weekly update here:
http://cantwell.senate.gov/updates/weekly_update.html

[ Reply to This | # ]

Tobacco logic
Authored by: waystar on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 12:26 PM EST
So we should try to force other countries to not outlaw smoking anywhere because
cigarette sales helps the American economy and provides Amercians with jobs.

Sheesh.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Tobacco logic - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 01:15 PM EST
  • Tobacco logic - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 01:53 PM EST
Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: mikebmw on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 01:01 PM EST
FYI,
I'm also a resident of Washington state. Sen. Murray isn't my senator ( I'm on
the wrong side of the state and not in her district) I did write her as a
resident and a software engineer. I would encourge every one else from
Washington that is a beliver in FOSS to do the same.
-Mike

[ Reply to This | # ]

American Jobs Threatened, don't make me vomit.
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 01:39 PM EST
". 'American jobs and economic interests are threatened,' she said."

American jobs are threatened because the EU wants Media Player unbundled.

American jobs are not threated because of outsourcing to India. American jobs
are not threatened by certain company who leverages their desktop monopoly to
crush innovation (their buzzword, not mine) and competition.

American jobs are not threatened by a certain Utah company who has recieved
money and a referral from MS to Baystar for more money so that it can sue its
former customers and business partners, claim it's nebulous "intellectual
property" is in Linux without showing proof, and damage the business of
legitimate Linux companies.

No, jobs and economic interests are threatened because the EU wants WiMP
unbundled from Windows so there can be fair competition.

How much money did MS contribute to this politician's campaign funds?


[ Reply to This | # ]

Regarding Mr. Gray's comments
Authored by: Callan.ca on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 01:49 PM EST
Microsoft Distinguished Engineer Jim Gray asked how the software industry can
survive if users get software for free through open-source.

http://www.computerworld.com/newsletter/0,4902,91297,00.html?nlid=PM

The industry will be fine if it adjusts, it's only Microsoft that won't survive
if it doesn't.

Consider the source, the man works for the people who's position he represents.

[For-profit software companies will struggle for a business model against free
software, said Microsoft Distinguished Engineer Jim Gray.]

Adjusting one economic model (Software as a Product) and keeping their cards
close, will be a struggle for most large companies, their inertia is carrying
them where the Executives lead.

This is the model that Monopolies are the ackowledged 'bad guys' of, thats why
there is anti-trust law, it discourages competition on merits.

Rhetorical Question: Does that make Darl McBride a Microsoft
Not-so-Distinguished FUD Engineer?

["The thing I'm puzzled by is how there will be a software industry if
there's open-source," Gray said, disagreeing with a fellow panelist over
the effects of open-source technology.]

Of course he disagrees he represents the old, fighting the new.

And he's been indoctrinated with the corporate mentality and FUD, I don't doubt
he's puzzled, keeping track of what the latest spin is must be confusing (try
reading through some of the threads here, the conversation spirals around like a
drunkard)

[Daniela Florescu, a senior software engineer at BEA Systems Inc., said
implementations of standards such as XML schema are being taken out of
open-source movements such as Apache.]

*implementations* mind you.

For an idea of how the F/OSS community participates in the development of
standards and fostering open implementations, a lot of good papers are available
here:

http://opensource.mit.edu/online_papers.php

["All those companies [developing standards] are selling software,"
said Gray. "The key thing is [with] people who are selling their software,
the software has to somehow be better than the free software, and [if] it's not
better, I'm puzzled as to what the business model is because they can't sell
it."]

This is great, the truth from the horse's mouth.

'I'm puzzled as to what the business model is because they can't sell it.'

Uhhhhm, yes they can Gray, if you make a program first, you have to continually
make your product the equal or better than your competitors, in order to
survive, this fosters development, not stagnation.

If you come into the market late, your not starting from scratch, your starting
as a good competitor, and must rely on your skill to make that product better
than all the other versions. Focus on your strengths, Microsoft *does* have some
other than their Monopoly stick.

Do it well enough, everyone talks about the program they DO use, as a 'cheaper'
Microsoft Whatever, everyone talks about Star/Open Office as the cheaper MS
Office why? Because its taking what it learned from LOOKING at your finished
product, and finding their own way of doing it, and in some ways better, without
even looking at your code...

Who here calls Jasc Paint Shop the 'cheaper' Photoshop for the level of
complexity we need? [while on windows machines that is]

And yeah, if people want to use our source, we ask that they contribute their
additions back to the community, then we all learn from your work, as you have
off ours.

[An audience member asked if software companies could instead compete on the
basis of their service models. "No, they don't, because I think the people
in China could do better [with a service model] than the people in
America," Gray said.]

This shows that Microsoft doesn't want economic dominance in just _one_
countries market, they want it _everywhere_

[A panelist from Oracle Corp. acknowledged that the database company couldn't
compete with an open-source vendor such as MySQL AB on price.

"One place where we could not compete very effectively is [on] price,"
said Jim Melton, standards architect at Oracle. However, he said the company
would compete very well with open-source products by emphasizing functions such
as scalability, high performance and huge databases.]

See, they compete on the MERITS of their product, even if they have to charge
more for service and maintainence contracts. They don't fear competition like
Microsoft does.

Even though for lesser needs, free and open alternatives would exist. Only
Monopolies fear competition.

["I also think the open-source databases will pursue [features] in the same
manner," Melton said, but he noted that Oracle has a "10-year head
start" in development.]

Heheheh, we have a larger potential developer pool to draw from, it might only
take 5 to catch up, depends how much initiative there is for development at
Oracle I guess.

[MySQL announced an open-source, clustered database product with
high-availability support, called MySQL Cluster. The database is intended for
larger applications than what has been the company's forte.]

So an open-source company, addressed its weakness with a solution, which in the
end, a mid-size cluster and MySQL may work just as well as a piece of big iron
DB2 or something for a lot of companies, for a lot smaller pricetag.

---
IANAL, IANAP, IAAC (I am a Canadian)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: juhl on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 02:35 PM EST
"The company also argued it could not have known its behaviour would infringe EU law and thus it should not be fined at all."

Ehh, have I misunderstood something really basic or what?
Isn't it part of the law in most countries (I know it is in Denmark), that not knowing about a law does not excuse you from breaking it. ??

Research the damn laws before you start doing business in a region/country for crying out loud...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: ujay on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 02:36 PM EST
First off, I seriously doubt that a senator from Washington state will be
affecting US foreign policy to any large degree. This is simply an election
year stance by a democrat to make Bush look ineffective (no comments on my
personal opinion of bush).

Secondly, does anyone realisticly think the EU is going to back down simply
because a few US citizens want them to. They didn't back down on their stance
on Iraq, and I fail to see how this decision would be anywhere near the
seriousness of that latter decision (no comments on my personal opinion of the
Iraq situation).

Third: some have indicated electioneering for the senator who made the call.
IIRC, senatorial elections are 2 years away, so while there may be some
positioning going on, I don't think anyone will recall the issue during the
election period, outside of those businesses which would like to have someone
sympathetic to their cause elected.

It would be interesting to watch this senators campaign fund, and determine the
amount of contributions by MS, Baystar, RBC, SCO et.al, and compare to other
candidates. Not being american, I'm not sure if an out of state business can
contribute to a senator of another state, but I doubt if that would stop some of
them.

---
cognito ergo sum : I hide, therefore I am

[ Reply to This | # ]

Open source the end of profits?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 03:09 PM EST
I do not see a problem with writing proprietary packages that run under Linux,
or any other OS. Just because it runs in Linux, it does not mean I have to
release it under the GPL, so if I am hard at work on my SuperWidgets Warehouse
Distribution package, I can charge you $XXXX.XX. And, if my package is the best
on the market, including Joe's GPL package, I can make a profit.

I think the handwringers are getting confused on what exactly OSS is.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Software as an artisan's product
Authored by: Duster on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 03:34 PM EST
The question of how the "for-profit" software industry will fare is an
interesting one. One possibility is that we will see coding sihift toward a
task-specific model produced more or less on demand by individuals or small
groups for particular clients. Instead one-size-fits-all monsters like MS
Office or even Open Office (sorry guys, but OO is as much a monster as MS
Office) we might see a more modular approach with jod specific collections of
utilies and apps on individuaL work stations. I believe this model was the
basis of the early unix systems which used pipes and redirection to process data
from raw input to a finished product.

Duster

[ Reply to This | # ]

Funny attitude...
Authored by: haegarth on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 03:45 PM EST
Well, this hasn't been the first time I've heard somebody argue that MS should
be left alone because they're good for the economy, no matter what they did.
Still, to all my knowledge, this is the first time an official, a public
character, utters such crap.

Oh, it's not hard to imagine how the Senator came to her decision. Someone at MS
must have phoned her or even showed up suggesting that she should do something
to resolve the situation, else there could easily be someone else on the payroll
for the next election. Those people tend to protect their most potent
supporters, no matter what the cause may be.

On the other hand, viewing her statement from a different aspect, one might
wonder what kind of crime MS could commit to change that economy-centric
attitude. What if, for instance, Bill Gates shot the Pope? Would that be
enough, then?

Well, you can't solve every problem with money. For some problems you need *a
lot of money*...

---
Everytime I read SCOspeak I'm dumbfounded...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Typo's Corrections Here Please
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 03:47 PM EST
"If Ms. Murray means troops, they'd better send some to grab Linus and toss
him in the brig."

Actually I believe Linus now lives in California (or atleast in the US) and
works at OSDL, so taking troops in to the EU to capture Linus would be
unnecessary.

Knowing our government though, they probably would anyways.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT: Engagement party?
Authored by: John on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 03:57 PM EST
Does that mean there will be an engagement party?

Can anyone attend? :^)

---
JJJ

[ Reply to This | # ]

MDE
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:12 PM EST
"According to Microsoft Distinguished Engineer Jim Gray, it might not survive. Commenting during a panel discussion at the Software Development Conference and Expo West (SD West) in Santa Clara, Calif., last week, Gray asked: 'How will there be a software industry if there's open source?'"
Given Microsoft's abysmal record of security, I wouldn't quite wear the badge of "Distinguished Engineer" too proudly. That's like calling yourself "Distinguished Internal Accountant" at Enron. Nah so goot...

In fact, I'd be curious to know how one get's to be a "Microsoft Distinguished Engineer?" What, do you contribute 10% pre-tax income to the Bill and Melissa Foundation? Buy Steve Ballmer lunch (careful, this guy eats for two!)? Or is he the guy who programmed that lame Microsoft game "Minesweep?" Instead of a nice dividend he got a new title, and a shiny new name tag!

The Senator from Washington has to be taking contributions from Microsoft. Who else would purposefully make themselves look like a "stupid American," unless Microsoft money was involved? Between "Distinguished Engineer" Jim Gray and "US Senator" Patty Murray, I don't know who is more painfully ignorant.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • MDE - Authored by: ujay on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:20 PM EST
  • MDE - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:43 PM EST
Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Denney on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:38 PM EST
A while back I blogged about how USA used political might againt JAPAN to help
Microsoft. The link to the blog is:
http://denney.modblog.com/?show=blogview&blog_id=10485

Here's the full text of my blog:

Folks,

When the greed of some humans stand in the way of the good of humanity, what
should we call it?
Capitalism? Politics? Nationalism(the bad kind, not the good kind)? Stupidity?
Perhaps, all of the above.

Case in point: TRON.

TRON is the world's most popular operating system - YES, even more popular than
Microsoft's Windows Operating System. What was that? You have never heard of
TRON? I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't!! Thanks to the actions of US
Government (Politics) and undoubtedly as a result of it being in bed with
Microsoft (Capitalism), TRON's heart was ripped out as it was just beginning to
beat. And not because TRON was inferior to Windows, but because TRON was
developed in Japan and Windows was developed in the United States (Nationalism -
the bad kind).

In fact TRON is superior to Windows because TRON does not crash!! Can you
imagine that? A computer with an operating system which does not crash. Most of
us do not even know what that looks or feels like!!

How is it that TRON is more popular than Windows, you ask? Well... There are
somewhere in the range of three to four billion copies of TRON in use today,
while Windows is used on only around 150 million computers. So, there!! That
settles it. TRON is more widely used than Windows.

TRON was originally developed as an embedded operating system - the software
that makes electronic items tick, for example, digital watches. But TRON was
soon seen as an operating system which could easily be modified to work as an
operating system for the Desktop Computer. Several Japanese companies decided to
convert TRON to a Desktop Computer operating system and market it in place of
Microsoft Windows. To top it off, TRON is open source - which means companies
can take it for free and modify it themselves.

Enter, the United States.

The Government of United States threatens to "designate TRON as an unfair
trade barrier." Which basically means, US will not trade with Japan on
certain items if Japan decides to go ahead with TRON. This makes the Japanese
computer companies worried because United States is their biggest market. So
these companies abandoned their plans to develop TRON as a Desktop Computer
Operating System.

Exit, the TRON.

But the really sad part is, the people in US government who made sure TRON did
not become a viable alternative to Windows perhaps thought they were doing their
part for the good of their country. But, hind sight being 20/20, we know now
that the instability of Windows has cost American businesses billions of dollars
in lost productivity, and has cost them a great deal more just to keep up with
purchase and upgrade price of Windows. (Stupidity) If they had let TRON work its
way through the market, the American companies might very well have had an
excellent operating system for a rock-bottom price.

I doubt anyone in any government in the world works for the good of their
country. They are in it for the power and for personal gain.

[Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/07/16/japan.tron.reut/index.html

Unfortunately, CNN now shows this link as 'Expired']

Note: I am not an enemy of the United States, neither do I bear any hostile
feelings toward this beautiful nation or its good people. I simply find myself
truly astonished at the short sightedness of some of those who serve this
country.


---
I had a Nightmare! All Truth was Known!! -- Anonymous

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO's next target: RIAA?
Authored by: whoever57 on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 04:48 PM EST
According to Netcraft the RIAA is now running Linux!

---
-----
For a few laughs, see "Simon's Comic Online Source" at http://scosource.com/index.html

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Paul_UK on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:21 PM EST
Um. "Engage"? She doesn't mean sending in troops or anything, does
she?

Erm....I sure hope not.

I dont think even M$ can come between Blair & Bush atm.

---
**
There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and
those who don't. IANAL.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Yankee Independently Pits Windows TCO vs. Linux TCO Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: RyanEpps on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:32 PM EST
More MicroFUD from DiDio:

Yankee surveyed 1,000 IT administrators and "C-level" executives
worldwide over the Web. The researchers then followed up with many of the
participants via in-depth phone question-and-answer sessions, according to Laura
DiDio, the senior researcher and primary analyst on the study.


Regarding Yankee's study, DiDio said "We did this because it needed to be
done. Many of our customers say they need some unbiased, objective data."

You can read all the FUD at:

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,4248,1553620,00.asp?kc=MWRSS02129TX1K0
000535

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: fireman_sam on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 05:47 PM EST
Instead of fining a company; Which could appear as a government simply profiting
on anothers work. Sale of Microsoft products should be stopped for a period of X
months. Therefore, the gov. involved would not be seen as simpley getting a
"cut", they would not receive money from sales tax. And finally,
competitors will suddenly have a better chance to sell their products.

Everyone wins (except microsoft)

--
please excuse my spelling, English is my first language, but i suck at spelling

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Bored Huge Krill on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:06 PM EST
This message would seem to be rather disingenuous. Talking about Microsoft being
a "successful company" and any ruling against it an
"assault" on American industry is rather hard to swallow when
Microsoft has already been convicted of illegal exploitation of a monopoly
position by a US court.

In what way is it ok for US courts to punish Microsoft for illegal behavior in
the US, but not ok for European authorities to punish Microsoft for illegal
behavior in the EU? Doesn't make any sense.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 06:21 PM EST
Oh I have to laugh.. I think open source is great for the american ecomony.
Hello were are all the tech jobs going in this country? Not here. Like all other
industries, the software industry is getting a new way of life, and i guess you
cant teach an old dog new ticks huh?

I think open source makes perfect sense. Ok employee 1/2 the developers(keep
some around to contribute to projects) and decicate more time and resources on
supporting and makeing customers happy. Humm customers happy? what a concept. In
this ecomony i think it makes perfect business sense.

Sooner or later we will look back and say... Man remeber when we had to use
windows. I hope my children will see windows like an old ibm selectric(if you
dont know its a electric type writer.. oh.. a Typewriter is something that put
number,letters, and other symbols on a piece of paper..hehehe).

Cheers!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 09:47 PM EST
I am a Network Admin (reformed MCSE)working in government. I want to say that
this article sums up what I've been feeling towards Microsoft's attitudes for
quite a while. I know a number of Microsoft followers who have turned away
because of Microsoft's attitude towards their customers. I am personally on the
beginning paths of moving much of my backend infrastructure away from Microsoft.
Novell is starting to look good again. Microsoft has made their customers into
their slaves.
Keep up the good work keeping us informed.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO and MS ARE joined at the lip
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24 2004 @ 10:02 PM EST
Up till this week I thought the suggestions that MS is running the SCO show were
a stretch. Then the MS statement about the EU ruling came out,

"The company also argued it could not have known..." about the EU
law(s). This is pure Darl! Really! If you can listen to this and keep a straight
face, you're legally deaf. This has to be from the same writers doing SCO's
stuff.

If Microsoft thinks this will help them get and win an appeal, they have
serously misjudged how insulted and disgusted the EU authorities will be.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Linus lives in California
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 25 2004 @ 01:33 AM EST
Linus is a resident alien and lives and works in California. His child is a
natural born US citizen.

I wonder if there's some PATRIOT act loophole that can get the author of the
article in trouble?

[ Reply to This | # ]

So, that famous 'US contribution' strikes again
Authored by: cheros on Thursday, March 25 2004 @ 03:37 AM EST
Hmm, can anyone work out the ratio (tax paid)/(profit) by MS over, say, the last
4 years? AFAIK it's just shade short of what you'd expect for such a
"great" contributor.

Another ration could be (tax)/(campaign funding) and (profit)/(legal
expenditure). The latter is interesting because I detect a trend in companies
where this ratio peaks at the end of their lifecycle (see SCO, for example ;-).

It's worth keeping in mind who states these 'great benefits' and who echos that
party line. Once the jobs have all been outsourced and the tax loophole still
exists there will be even less of a "contribution" than there already
is - eventually even the (unemployed) voters in a declining economy will catch
on to what is really happening and who's been creative with the truth.

The disadvantage of a consumer economy is that putting people on the street
reduces the number of consumers. You can work out the consequences yourself.
MS isn't helping.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 25 2004 @ 04:07 AM EST
As a citizen of the EU (who happens to be a Brit) I am truly dissapointed at the
small mindedness of Senator Murray. The EU is not a thirld world dictatorship
where the rule of law means nothing, where money buys everything even the
politicians and judges.

The EU is a proud confederation of nations whose history of jurisprudence is
second to none in the world - yes we have had problems along the way, yes we do
disagree amongst each other but threat, bluff and bluster is not the way for a
US politician to win any friends here.

I am priveledged to have a minor role as a member of the judiciary in my country
and swore an oath to "do right to all men without fear or favour, malice or
ill will"

- what oath do US politicians take:

"I swear to do right to all men especially those who can get me re-elected
or scratch my back in a meaningful way, who have big wallets that carry
persuasive arguments, who I need to fear or can do me a favour and will show
malice or ill will to those who cannot"

Don't get me wrong I don't necessarily think our politicians are any better - we
have a saying here in Britain that "the last honest man to enter Parliament
was Guy Fawkes" (history lessons available as required)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: blacklight on Thursday, March 25 2004 @ 06:09 AM EST
"The company [Microsoft] also argued it could not have known its behaviour
would infringe EU law and thus it should not be fined at all."

Hmmmh, I have a chicken-and-egg question: which came first, Microsoft ignoring
the law or Microsoft's ignorance of the law? And the cause-and-effect question:
is Microsoft ignorant of the law because it ignores the law, or does Microsoft
ignores the law because it is wilfully ignorant of the law? Yep, round and round
does my mind go in undending circles ...

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Washington State's Senator Murray Asks Bush to "Engage" the EU
Authored by: blacklight on Thursday, March 25 2004 @ 06:22 AM EST
"Murray called on the Bush administration to 'engage' the EU in settling
the case. 'The EU has now directly attacked the authority of the United States
and our economy in general,' she said in a statement"

Let's be charitable and say that there is at least one ignorant fool in the US
Senate. Patty Murray has phrased her position in such a way that she has made it
almost impossible for the US government to intervene in Microsoft's favor. And I
believe that the US government will try to lie low for a while, what with its
WMD version of the Thousand and One Nights tales and the WTO court having
declared illegal its multibillion quota on steel imports from Europe and other
places. In the meantime, the European commission has fined Microsoft 500 mil
euros and essentially said: "Patty Murray and Microsoft, engage
THIS!!!"

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Senator Bill Frist joins Murray melody
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 25 2004 @ 06:39 AM EST
Take a look at this:

http://frist.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelea
se_id=1599

Without astonishment I noticed that Microsoft is among his strongest financial
supporters too:

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00003147&cycle=2004

You should start _voting politicians_ in the US and stop putting lobbyists in
power.

regards from Europe

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Free Software Killing the Industry
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 25 2004 @ 01:42 PM EST
So, is giving away the web browser killing the web browser market okay? It was
good enough for Microsoft.

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MSDOJ gets in the act
Authored by: RyanEpps on Thursday, March 25 2004 @ 04:34 PM EST
Microsoft's DOJ is also critical of the EU's action, they don't like European
justice applied to US companies.

However; they don't seem to mind MS squashing a US company using foreign courts.

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the inevitability of multiple OS
Authored by: pyrite on Thursday, March 25 2004 @ 09:27 PM EST
There is just no way that we can expect it to remain a rational idea, or an idea
even resembling sanity, to expect there to be one operating system from one
giant corporation running on 90% of the world's personal computers. There is
just no way.

There may be talk of a decade, or two, but unless an asteroid comes crashing
into our planet, we have probably at least a couple hundred years, if not more,
in which to move our technology forward. It is unrealistic to think that having
one operating system, born out of and entrenched in the industry because of the
the advent of the personal computer, is a sane way of having things be.

We (that means Microsoft as well) have to get moving along in the right
direction. Either that, or Windows emulation is going to be a stop-gap until
truly portable applications are developed, applications that will give
individuals a choice of what type of hardware and software combinations they
would like to run those applications on.

It's really not as big a deal as Microsoft makes it out to be, and I guess, or
let's say I have a feeling, is that once an organization or business gets as
large as Microsoft is, things can really get out of hand. Even though the
organization is huge, and is a dominant force in the personal computing
industry, and is also trying to make inroads into the server and corporate
worlds, that does not necessarily mean that the people working there are not new
employees.

I don't work at Microsoft, but I seriously doubt that the executives that are
currently employed with Microsoft don't have numerical goals concerning growth
as part of their job descriptions, perhaps even tied to promotions, even if it's
just in a conceptual sense within their own minds. So the fact that Microsoft is
a business, looking for growth, (what business doesn't look for growth?), and
the individual compensation packages for the current crop of employees are
probably not placed within the perspective of the larger picture of how huge
Microsoft actually is, and how easy it is for that company to push their power
around. This results in a stifling of innovation, and a world where if you don't
have Microsoft apps, you may not even be able to sign up for certain services
(i.e. some broadband providers, online courses, banking, brick and mortar
courses that require Office).

We have to move forward. We are moving forward. Because it appears that
Microsoft has grown out of control, it may be left behind. This is not
necessarily a bad thing, if it increases innovation, consumer choice, and
consumer convenience. Many people are starting to realize that it is simply
easier to use Linux for their computing needs. If Linux was more expensive in
price than Windows, it would probably be a much more coveted, sought after
product.

But some people might prefer to use Microsoft products, not necessarily their
OS, but perhaps Office or WMP, or Access, for instance. These products, which
have benefits in their own right, and truth be told, many individuals find
useful - these products are still more or less tied to the OS. Why? It's not
really necessary.

Unfortunately, this is going to take a while, but again, it's simply not
realistic for society to be stuck with one operating system running on 90% of
the computers. At least with Linux, there is no way that any one vendor will be
able to reach 90%. And as we move forward, the differences between Linux
distributions are probably going to become more and more substantial, so it
won't be just plain Linux anymore, it will be Red Hat or Novell or Xandros or
Vector or Slackware, and so on - hundreds of "for profit" companies.
Linux and Posix give us the standards base to spawn hundreds of different
software "operating system" companies, in hundreds of different
languages, running on any concievable hardware platform, past, present or
future. Sooner or later, Microsoft _might_ realize this is the case. Maybe. And
if they do, they may be able to remain competitive in one way or another. But
sooner or later, there will be more judgements like this one, and I would not be
surprised to see the company eventually get split up into smaller companies,
although it might take 50 years.

That being said, I don't think that anyone is preventing Microsoft from making
their products, and competing in a free and open market system, where consumer
will choose Microsoft products if the products suit their needs, an economic
environment where Microsoft products are chosen because they are good products,
quality products that get the job done, an environment where Microsoft products
are chosen because they are good products. Any product that is tied to a
particular OS, regardless of what that OS is, is less desirable than a product
that is available for a number of platforms.

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