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Sun: The Toxic Boyfriend |
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Saturday, August 09 2003 @ 10:42 PM EDT
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Sun Microsystem's Executive VP Jonathan Schwartz demonstrated Mad Hatter at Linux World. At the same time, he joined SCO and MS in attacking the GPL. His method was subtler -- or more devious, depending on your mood -- but you can catch his drift. It seems he thinks open-source coders shouldn't care so much about what license they use and just think about writing "better and cheaper" software.
True BusinessThink that completely misses all points not exclusively about the bottom line. Coders, at least GPL coders, don't volunteer their time and what the law likes to describe as "the sweat of their brow" so that the world can have cheaper software. It is cheaper and it is better, and naturally companies like that. But that wasn't and isn't the primary goal of free software. Open source kind of liked the sound of business' line for a while, or at least pretended to, so business would like them back, but free software never fell for it. The primary goal was and is freedom for users and programmers. Businesses that think they can use or coopt GNU/Linux without adopting the values will never make money from their efforts, minus the goodwill of the programmers.
Here is what ITworld.com says Schwartz said: Jonathan Schwartz told an audience here at LinuxWorld Conference & Expo on Tuesday to worry more about the quality of their code than the software licenses that govern it. "The thing I worry about most with the open source community is the sentiment that open source is somehow different. It isn't," he said. What makes the company's forthcoming bundle of desktop software, Mad Hatter, appealing is not that it is based on open source software, he said, but rather that it's "better and it's cheaper." Tell you the truth, kiddo, I'm worried about you right back. If you don't realize that open source, as you call it, is different, something must be wrong with you or with open source. Wonder what kind of license Mad Hatter will have? Me too. This triumvirate thinks we are too stupid to get it. SCO's Tianemen Square style is to just drive a tank into a defenseless crowd. Microsoft ...well, you know. But Sun appears to think they can charmingly trick everyone not otherwise intimidated by the others into volunteering to fit into their agenda by pretending to be in love with Linux, showering her with gifts, all the while planning on using her and two-timing her to boot. What is Sun's stated reason for wanting to get involved with "irrelevent" Linux, as Schwartz called it recently? The article explains that Sun feels Java and Linux go well together: . . .Schwartz emphasized its synergy with Linux. "If you think of where Java and Linux are going, they tend to go hand in hand," said Schwartz in a keynote today."They all require the infrastructure that runs on the back of the network... Linux opens up the network and makes huge applications relevant," he said, adding that this was good for Sun's business. Hmm. Hand-in-hand with Sun? Thanks, but I think Linux has had enough going steady with self-absorbed, let's-exploit-Linux-to-bring-customers-to-proprietary-UNIX guys. If a business doesn't grasp the values of free software, they're not boyfriend material. First of all, any business that can't get its own customers without Linux to draw them into the tent is doomed. Second, we all saw what happened with Linux' last toxic boyfriend, Caldera. That turned into a hand-in-hand walk into the sunset all right, with the boyfriend suddenly deciding to try to stuff Linux in the trunk so he could send the car 100 mph straight toward the edge of a cliff, and her with it. Happily, IBM heard her screams and ran over and started beating him up, although, truth be told, she had already popped the hood of the trunk herself with her handy GPL. Linux may not have become scarred and cynical after that near-death experience or anything, but a narrow escape like that can make a girl more picky about boyfriends. It certainly should. If you remind Linux of her old boyfriend, she probably won't go out with you. At least, that's what her friends are hoping. Sun reminds me of Caldera, the old Caldera, when it was first in love with Linux and making great plans for a future with her, except Sun is a lot less affectionate, he disses her in public, and he's got another girlfriend, Solaris, whom he really loves. Sun likes Linux fine, as long as she lets herself be used and remembers her place. Or maybe it's worse. Maybe it's more like Heathcliff and his wife, sweet-talking her until she elopes with him, and then abusing her for the rest of her life, making her the scullery maid. Note this article from last October on Sun's strategy: Sun's vision is that companies will start with Sun's Lintel boxes and, as their needs grow, they will migrate upwards to Solaris-SPARC without having to spend huge amounts on retraining. Thanks to Sun's work with the Gnome project, it can offer a common desktop across Linux and Solaris. This is very important since one of Microsoft's key selling points has always been the boast that it has a common GUI across all flavours of Windows (98/NT/2000/Me/XP). Linux application compatibility has existed in Solaris all along. Sun had held back from announcing Solaris 9 for Intel. Now, due to popular demand from users and insiders, Solaris 9 for Intel will be coming in a few months. In March of 2003, a Sun spokesman in India was trash talking Linux: Anil Valluri, Director, Systems Engineering, Sun Microsystems, India says, "Support is offered by a third party organization for break-fix maintenance. However, support for bug fixes, patch upgrades, and drivers needs to be handled by the customer organization directly, by downloading from the Web. Thus, the customer may not receive end-to-end support from the vendor. This puts a lot of doubt in the mind of an IT manager regarding the use of an open source OS on mission critical applications."
These three appear agreed on one thing: Linux must not go high-end, at all cost. Here, in August, Silicon.com reported the new Sun-SuSE partnership and on Sun's Mad Hatter plan: Sun's main business is selling servers, but it hopes also to profit from Linux on desktop computers, a market that's growing more popular. . . "We want a compelling alternative to Microsoft," Wettersten said. In July, Silicon News had an
article on Sun's troubles: And even then there are question marks. Sun says it is embracing Linux but acts happier to be the owner of Solaris, casting doubt over users' peace of mind running the operating system in the face of SCO's claims. It also claims Linux is an "edge play", while vendors such as Dell and IBM are positioning Linux as a high-end alternative to Unix and other OSes, running on clustered Intel boxes or mainframes. Sun so far isn't saying it will indemnify its Linux customers the way it does for Solaris. Anyway, as MathFox noted in a comment, any immunity from being sued by SCO isn't going to protect you from being sued by Microsoft down the road, anyway, assuming they plan on slithering into the water with the rest of the sharks eventually.
Sun CEO Scot McNealy recently said this about Linus' saying UNIX is dying: "You can go back over 21 years, and we've been reading that exact quote about Unix. But in one sense, Linus is right. The operating system is going away; you don't write to the operating system anymore. You write to the Web services layer. You either write to [Microsoft's] .Net, which only runs on Windows, or you write to the Java Web services architecture, which runs on anything."
So, personally, I think he's just using Linux for as long as it's financially useful, to fight MS, his eternal quest, and to draw Solaris customers, by offering Linux until they are ready to move up to Solaris, and if the money thing doesn't work out with Linux, then he'll turn on her and dump her, just like Caldera/SCO did. That's the thing about loving only money and not understanding that "cheaper and better" software isn't what it's really all about. The value of free software, of open source, is its values, not just its utility. Sun's inability to see that makes it like a superficial man who picks women just for their looks and hasn't a clue that her character or personality might be important too in a longterm relationship. That superficial motivation can only take a relationship so far. I'm worried Linux might be a little confused, because of those gifts of software and the love letters Sun sent her, pledging his undying devotion to open source. Just like Caldera. It was still holding hands with Linux and trying to woo developers as recently as October of 2002, and look how that ended up. Could somebody call Linux up and warn her, please. to watch out for this guy? I don't think he's good for her.
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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 09 2003 @ 10:37 PM EDT |
Sun doesn't have any friends just strategic alliances (ploy). They always play
both sides with the sole aim of coming out on top at any cost.
Their Jekyll and Hyde behavior has been noticed by just about everyone in the
Linux community and beyond.
They are Microsoft's unlucky brother who feels cheated by fate any will use
anyone / everything to try to remedy this perceived injustice. BTW Isn't this
called tough business practices?
As Microsoft has had to bend slightly (showing source to governments etc) to try
to stem the influence of opensource, Sun has tried various opensource guises.
Staroffice is a perfect example; attacks MS office, gives it some opensource
credibility, and is repackaged as one of their cost effective migration tools.
As Linux gains more influence and market share we are going to see some very
bizarre relationship/domination attempts by those who feel threatened.
with metta
rob monkymind[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 09 2003 @ 11:06 PM EDT |
If everyone sees it, why is Schwartz invited to give a keynote speech at Linux
World? pj[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 09 2003 @ 11:42 PM EDT |
I agree with pj, the Linux community needs to confront Sun about their
understanding of the GPL and why "free software" is about more than just price.
I highly doubt that SCO will be the last major lawsuit against Linux (and the
GPL). We need a better idea of who our real friends are and I for one, don't
think Sun is on our side. Lins Zechesny[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 12:23 AM EDT |
"If everyone sees it, why is Schwartz invited to give a keynote speech at Linux
World?"
<Shrug!> I guess it is because Linux World is a subsidiary of IDG http://ww
w.idgworldexpo.com/idgworldexpo/V40/index.cvn?ID=10012
and Sun is a Platinium sponsor
http:
//www.linuxworldexpo.com/linuxworldny03/V40/index.cvn?ID=10013
not to mention all the avertising revenue IDG receives from Sun.
IIRC Microsoft won the award for best system integration software in the Open
Source Product Excellence Awards at the last Linux World.
PS I doubt either would be popular (or winners) in a community sponsored event.
;-) monkymind[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 01:22 AM EDT |
You tell em PJ.
Only thing is anyone can put out a Linux distribution regardless of what anyone
else thinks of their intentions. The Company That I Shall Not Name could even
put out a Linux distribution. In fact, the Company That Chose Dark Side could
put out another Linux distribution tomorrow.
So we can't call any company that puts out a distribution or spends money on
Linux her boyfriend.
In fact, Windows and the Company I Shall Not Name are married. Solaris and Sun
are married. Unixware and The Company That Chose the Dark Side are married.
Companies can send flowers to Linux all they want but her only husband is the
GPL.
IBM joining with Linux' husband to beat up The Company That Chose the Dark Side
is only going to give Linux' husband more "rep", so that the next Company that
sends her flowers will be more afraid to try do drive her over a cliff. r.a.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 04:10 AM EDT |
I think a more interesting question is "Why is Sun courting Linux?"
My explanation is that Linux remembers Sun of the happy days that he had with
the BSD-stepsister of Linux, and the little SunOS. Then the rich AT&T lady came
to spoil those happy days; Sun became richer, but not happier. Solaris is a good
child, but a bit spoiled by her mother.
Enter Linux; she knows about the family tragedy. As beautifull as she is, she
knows that flirting with Sun is fun; but bonding with Sun will cause
unhapyness. MathFox[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 05:52 AM EDT |
Of course, love is a dangerous game. On the whole, I think Linux will keep the
gifts and survive the relationship with SUN. Sun will change too, although,
perhaps not with the present management. Sun is in trouble and must change to
survive. Hugging Linux to gather new customers for UNIX may be the present
strategy, but, if Linux's popularity continues to grow, Sun's view of its worth
will also change.
My first Linux distro was Caldera's eDesktop 2.4. It was love at first sight.
The relationship with Caldera did turn ugly, but I believe Caldera's installer
and manager set a standard that other distros have followed. StarOffice, grown
to become OpenOffice, is a fantastic gift for Linux on the desktop.
Let us keep the ring, no matter how the relationship goes. Robert Pogson[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 06:33 AM EDT |
"Happily, IBM heard her screams and ran over and started beating him up,
although, truth be told, she had already popped the hood of the trunk herself
with her handy GPL. "
I LOL at this very evocative and accurate (and funny) sentence. Nick[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 06:39 AM EDT |
"The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife."
-- 48th Rule of Acquisition
Old-timers like myself well remember that Sun was viewed this same way twenty
years ago. Back then it was UNIX that was going to bring "openness" and
"hardware independence" to IT shops. UNIX represented the end of every vendor
having his own proprietary OS to go along with his proprietary hardware.
To a large degree UNIX has fulfilled that promise. But even twenty years ago,
Sun was viewed as the guy who would proclaim his own proprietary stuff an "Open
Standard," and try to get everyone else to adopt it. When X-Windows was still a
new thing, Sun tried to promote its own "NeWS" (Network-extensible windowing
system) as an alternative. There have been dozens of these. Most of them
flopped. Java has been by far the most successful of Sun's many attempts to
create a "standard" that they own.
This is their mind set, and it has been for a long time. It is an obsolete mind
set, one that is no longer in even their own interest, but Sun has not yet
awakened to that fact.
I think people sense, and correctly, that IBM -has- figured it out. And that is
why almost everyone except Bruce Perens sees IBM as a Knight in Shining Armor
here, instead of just another guy like Sun who would grab control of Open Source
if he could.
It is easy to understand why IBM loves linux, and we do not have to bestow
Sainthood on them to understand it. AIX looks to them like a big money sink that
doesn't really add anything to the bottom line. Yet-another-UNIX-flavor is a
commodity; everybody has one and they are all about the same. So it brings no
competitive advantage. Why spend a fortune maintaining such a thing?
They do need some Big Iron stuff in there like NUMA and RPC, but if an army of
volunteers wants to work on the rest of it for bragging rights on Slashdot, well
God bless them. IBM was making all its money on the hardware and the services
anyway; AIX was just a cost of doing business. If IBM can sell hardware and
services with linux instead, then their cost of developing and maintaining an OS
just went down dramatically.
So they are willing to spend a billion dollars to make this happen, because it's
still cheaper than maintaining AIX forever.
Are they serious? Has IBM really committed? Read Counterclaim #6 in IBM's latest
filing. They are going to foot the bill to have the world's most expensive
lawyers conduct the first serious court test of the GPL. This is Bill Gates'
worst nightmare. All the FUD about the GPL being "unenforcable" goes out the
window if IBM succeed in enforcing it against SCO. Precedent set... now let's
have the -real- war.
The funny thing is, Sun has to eventually see the same thing, or they'll go out
of business. IBM, HP, and Dell all understand that by chipping into the linux
pot, they get to share the cost of developing and maintaining something that
enables them to sell lots of boxes for lots of money. Only Sun seems to want to
keep pouring money into its own UNIX flavor. In the end, that's just cost the
other guys won't have. How does Sun compete if its cost structure is unalterably
higher? It can't, and eventually that light bulb has to go on over Scott
McNealy's head. Bob[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 07:11 AM EDT |
Bob, that's the most cogent analysis of the " big picture" I've read to date!
thanks, Mike[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 09:31 AM EDT |
I agree, Mike. And the rest of you: these were some of the best, and funniest,
comments ever. I enjoyed them so much. r.a. -- I didn't know you were so
clever! Just so much fun. Thanks, guys. pj[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 09:33 AM EDT |
And I forgot to add. I loved: Let's keep the ring. hahahahahah!
style="height: 2px; width: 20%; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: auto;">pj[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 09:34 AM EDT |
And to Lins: you got my true point. Thanks. pj[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 10:39 AM EDT |
Well, I think too much is being read into Sun and Linux and a few things
overlooked.
In companies as large as Sun, HP, IBM (or any others), you find that there are
many many groups. One group would be for Solaris (or AIX, or UX) another
for Windows (or..uh..Windows), another for Sparc or RISC or Intel and so on.
Do you really think talking to the Intel guy he's going to say, "Yup, go ahead
and use Sparc/RISC instead of our products!" You might as well ask the IBM
spokesperson about why you should buy Sun!
Same for the os groups. The Windows guy is going to say to use UNIX?
Do you really think that talking to a spokesperson from the AIX group at IBM is
going to get you a good idea of why you should switch to Linux? How about a UX
spokesperson from HP? Solaris guy from Sun?
Sun has the same type of issue. It seems that they are two-faced on it, but
each group has to save, or get, it's customers, or be written out entirely.
And when you get to the top guys, the ones who "control" the flow of the
company, what are you going to get? One day it's "Use Linux!" Next day, "Use
Solaris!"
They have to do it, support all aspects of their business.
And so on.
Vip Vip[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 11:32 AM EDT |
I just wanted to comment about all this indemnification trash talking that
Microsoft, SCO, Sun, and all their cronies are foaming about the mouth on.
The indemnification issue is, no doubt, one of the FUD angles they would have
both users and potential Linux user believe is something good. Personally, I do
not share this point of view.
The very nature of Linux makes indemnification onerous and impractical. Exactly
what component is a corporation indemnifying against; a kernel component; some
other module? Remember, no single person owns the collective works. More
importantly, does a corporation want to assume the risk of indemnifying against
collectively GPL’ed code? Here's my take:
The GPL is a far-reaching community license. In particular, if a corporation
chooses to indemnify for collective works released under the GPL, the
corporation may be assuming reciprocating liabilities - if that's even legally
accurate terminology. :-) On the other hand, if the corporation provides
indemnity against its own developed products contributed via the GPL, then this
is reasonable.
I could be out to an all-you-can-eat buffet on this one, but I believe that
companies are dooming themselves if they provide indemnification for the
collective work that is Linux or GNU/Linux.
Therefore, I believe that it may be safer for a company to indemnify only for
their actual contributions. As a result, companies like SCO, who engage in
unethical business practices, can take up their beefs only with the
contributor.
It seems to me very odd that SCO and Microsoft (or is that SCO = Microsoft?)
would all of a sudden start preaching about indemnity as if they actually care
for the wellbeing of the very users they are molesting. Is it not more likely
that MiSCOsoft is calling for the businesses to institute indemnity for Linux
users because they envision the possibility of reciprocating liability (again,
I'm not sure this is legally valid terminology)? No doubt, the possibility of
such a target must give MiSCOsoft wet dreams.
Comments welcome. PJ, what's your take? MajorLeePissed[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 11:35 AM EDT |
>> Do you really think that talking to a spokesperson from the AIX group at IBM
is going to get you a good idea of why you should switch to Linux?
This is true of SUN but AIX is a bad example for your argument.
Remember it was an AIX group exec's speech that "opened our eyes" (Sontag) to
the fact that IBM was "misappropriating our IP into Linux."
The AIX guys are walking a fine line. From the interviews I've read they know
AIX will become legacy soon, and many are happy about that, BUT THEY CANNOT SAY
THAT IN PUBLIC so that AIX customers jump ship.
They will jump and IBM wants them to jump but not right now, not before Linux
has all that's required for AIX customers ... and I'm talking individual, AIX -
specific features that keep customers tied to AIX, not the technical abilities
of the 2 OSes.
PS last place I worked an HP UK specialist who was helping my company port to
HPPA said "a lot of the tech guys at HP would love to dump HPUX for Linux. But
remember that HP still supports HP3000s, which gives you an idea how glacial HP
management can be." Sanjeev[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 12:20 PM EDT |
I'm working on an article about the indemnification angle right now, as a matter
of fact. Look for it by next week, I'd guess. pj[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 02:02 PM EDT |
My take on the indemnification thing comes strictly from a marketing
perspective.
Imagine an airline that ran advertising touting its new competitive advantage:
it would pay all your burial expenses if you died in a crash involving their
plane.
Nobody does that. Airlines show you sunny beaches and gorgeous coastlines, and
businesspeople being whisked through check-in. Not flaming wreckage with bodies
hanging out the sides of it.
What kind of sales pitch is it that reminds people that they could get sued for
buying a computer product? "Yes, if you get sued using -our- product, we'll pay
for a bunch of lawyers to come in and be your friends."
And then you can say, "Our competitors won't." But by then the IT manager
already has the mental picture of the flaming wreckage with the bodies hanging
out the sides.
This has got to be the dumbest marketing move I have ever seen. Bob[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 02:35 PM EDT |
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />
<meta name="Generator" content="Kate, the KDE Advanced Text Editor" />
<title>auto-indemnification</title>
</head>
<body>
I believe GROKLAW has missed a major point about
indemnification. It seems the whole world is focused on liability. Yet we see
the first thing both IBM and Red Hat did was move to limit damages. Everyone is
seeking the source (code) for the sake of determining liability (who put the
code and where ?).
Both IBM and Red Hat sent letters of request for the source of
harm (offending code) to SCO's business. The were in essence offering to
fix any damage they were causing.
These letters of request were sent long before any lawsuits against
SCO were filed. Both IBM and Red Hat emphasize these requests in complaints
they filed against SCO. They were not sent as in your face challenges to
liability. These letters were sent to mitigate any possible damages. The legal
doctrine behind this strategy is is known as "avoidable consequences".
Now let us look at RESTATEMENT (SECOND) OF TORTS:
sec. 918
(1) Except as stated in Subsection (2), one injured by the tort
of another is not entitled to recover damages for any harm that he could have
avoided by the use of reasonable effort or expenditure after the commission of
the tort.
(2) One is not prevented from recovering damages for a particular
harm resulting from a tort if the tortfeasor intended the harm or was aware of
it and was recklessly disregardful of it, unless the injured person with
knowledge of the danger of the harm intentionally or heedlessly failed to
protect his own interests.]
The Supreme Court and all Federal Circuits recognize the
doctrine of "avoidable consequences" concerning damages (not liability).
"[w]here one person has committed a tort, breach of contract, or other legal
wrong against another, it is incumbent upon the latter to use such means as are
reasonable under the circumstances to avoid or minimize the damages. The person
wronged cannot recover for any item of damage which could thus have been
avoided." Ford Motor Co., 458 U.S. at 232 n.15 (quoting C.MCCORMICK, LAW
OF DAMAGES 127 (1935)); see also Faragher, 524 U.S. at 807.
If you read paragraphs (37) and (38) of IBM's counterclaim this becomes
glaringly obvious. The same is true in paragraph (10) of Red Hat's complaint.
The strategy is to mitigate possible damages first and then fight about
liability later.
By not identifying any offending source code or accepting offers to
correct the damaging act (source code) SCO has virtually destroyed any chance
it might have had to collect damages after the offers to fix the code were
tendered.
The point of this analysis is that any Linux end user who felt
threatened by SCO should have sent a letter requesting the offending code be
identified so that it could be removed. No response or a refusal from SCO all
but indemnifies the user from damages after the date of the letter being
received by SCO.
IANAL but this is the first action I would discuss with my legal counsel
if I were a business executive concerned about Linux use in the workplace.
</body></html> gumout[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 03:12 PM EDT |
Please corrct me if I'm wrong my this is my view of indemnification:
If I purchase 500 servers running Red Hat 9 and somehow buggy code in the OS
corrupts my all important databases (customer lists, delivery schedules etc.),
my customers all ticked off at me and I'm ticked off at Red Hat. What are my
options? I can't sue Red Hat and I can't sue Linus and I can;t sue the Open
Source Community. I'm stuck with a bunch of corrupted databases and angry
customers that could sue me. Obviously, I was aware that there was risk
beforehand when I agreed to the GPL. I accepted that risk. I think this is where
the "risk is on the customer's heads" schpiel comes in from MS/SCO.
So what does this tell me about the MS/SCO thought-process? It tells me that
they want to cause FUD for those companies who are thinking about making the
switch. They want them to believe its risky, that Linux is unstable and could
blow up in your face at any second, and MS wants you to believe that if this
happened with their OS, they'd be your best buddy and make things right for you
with their indemnification policy.
MS also wants people to believe that Linux is haphazardly fastened together with
duct tape and that because it is created by many different people -- for free --
that nobody's at the switch making sure IP isn't put into codebase illegally and
that companies like SCO can go after end-users.
The only reason I can see for them to spout on about it is to cause more FUD and
tarnish the image of both Linux and the Open Source Community.
If there's some deeper scheme at work, I'm sure someone will uncover it soon and
I look forward to seeing pj's article. Z[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 03:15 PM EDT |
gumout, thank you for your contribution, and for making it clear you are not a
lawyer. But Groklaw, while fully capable of missing all kinds of major points,
has yet to address the issue of indemnification, so I'd say we haven't yet
missed a major point about it, unless you mean the fact that we haven't
addressed it at all so far.
I'm still in the research stage, so if others have thoughts, I'm certainly
interested. The marketing perspective, for example, was interesting. But the
question of indemnification, at least from my perspective of writing the
article, is bigger than just this situation. I'm thinking from the standpoint
of "Why I'd Rather Not Get Indemnified", or something like that, meaning, I'm
looking at the pitfalls and any reasons why it isn't necessary with GPL code in
the first place, reasons why others might want GPLd code indemnified, as well as
what proprietary software companies actually offer in the way of indemnification
to businesses. Some of you may have a business and have the document handy to
look at. What is the precise wording you got? If you wish to email me, that
would help me the most. pj[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 03:33 PM EDT |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the situation Z described happened while you
were running 500 Microsoft servers and the Microsoft SQL databases all got
corrupted you've already signed away all rights to take any action against MS
anyway the moment you agreed to the EULA. And even if the EULA proves
unenforcable because by the time you see it you've already paid for the software
and such we should keep in mind that noone has yet successfully sued MS for
software being buggy, right (Other reasons yes, but I don't know of anyone
successfully suing MS for the software simply being substandard buggy crap)?
So, legally speaking no matter how buggy the software is on either end (And I
personally think Linux has been less buggy than anything put out by MS for
years) you're equally screwed either way, and probably just as screwed with any
commercial Unix.
With that in mind does that not mean that it is creeping pretty close to
either fraud or libel to claim that you shouldn't use Linux because of lack of
legal protection, especially when you consider the situation of MS SQL server
users who may be getting individually fined for not paying for a licence from
that company suing MS for infringing their copyrights (Sorry, can't remember its
name).
Seriously, is there anyone who DOES provide the sort of legal protection
that people are whining that Linux lacks? Joss of the Red Eyes[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 04:05 PM EDT |
Gumout, agreed. They refused to mitigate the purported damages; thus, it should
be obvious to the informed that SCO essentially has no case. In fact, a more
likely outcome is that SCO ends up being charged for committing several criminal
acts (the most likely being extortion - or at least conspiring to commit
extortion - and possibly racketeering, amongst others).
Something I have found funny, with regards to the SCO extortion license, it that
when someone contacts them to inquire whether they need to purchase the license,
SCO tells the individual to seek legal advice. Excuse me? Are they not the
ones spewing that whoever is running Linux without their extortion license is
doing so illegally? So if they are so sure of themselves, why can they not just
tell the person to open his/her wallet? Could it be that SCO realizes that
their license is illegal and they think that, if the user voluntarily tells them
they want the license, SCO is somehow exonerated? I think the judge has gotta
be pretty pissed and drugged up before s/he buys that excuse.
It appears that most of those panicking about being sued by SCO simply do not
understand the amount of leverage SCO has just given them. You cannot be sued
for refusing to enter into an illegal contract. SCO made the mistake of suing
IBM and bad-mouthing Red Hat. To sue someone for not accepting their extortion
license would be yet another big mistake. I bet each of those licenses they
sell will likely equate to a single count of extortion. Thus, the more of those
licenses they sell, the more a judge is going to pummel them. No wonder they
set such ridiculously high license fees.
The ugly side of lawyers, who represent the unscrupulous, is that they often
prey on timidity and ignorance. MajorLeePissed[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 05:01 PM EDT |
Could anybody post a list of all the exhibits in the IBM filing>
With respect to PJ and everybody else, I'm rather more interested in that, than
discussing Sun's and McNealy's mindset. quatermass[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 05:42 PM EDT |
From my years of reading EULAs from a variety of software houses, including MS,
I've laughed many times at essentially being told 'this software is not
warranted to do anything for anyone at any time, and in fact, may not even do
what you bought it for, and there isn't anything you can do about it because you
are agreeing that this software is worth only the cost of the media it comes on,
if that' or something like that. Indemnified? Hardly. They even tell you at
times NOT to use the software in certain life-depending circumstances, making it
very clear that the vendor thinks the software is likely to just not work at
times. This is an industry-wide phenomenon, something I attributed to my
assumption that each company saw that the other company did it and copied the
idea. Even Borland, with their fair-minded and wonderful 'treat this software
just like a book' license, still was told by their lawyers to deny their
software did anything. Nick[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 06:55 PM EDT |
Well, seriously, one doesn't purchase software in the hopes that it will work
24/7 if one is sane. MS even had a big ad campaign about how their servers
don't stay up 100% of the time. It's a given. EULAs, while evil in other ways,
are simply stating the obvious in regards to software functionality IMHO.
Although the phrasing is certaingly amusing. Somebody actually pasted some EULA
boilerplate onto a virus that asked you to click "I Agree" before it destroyed
your computer. Heh.
At any rate, all this talk about indemnification isn't about functionality, is
it? I mean, aren't MS and SCO essentially saying "It's a dangerous legal world
out there, and how can mere people defend your business against frivolous
lawsuits about their code?" Really does provide huge insight into the moral
character of these organizations. They actually WANT the world to operate like
this. In some twisted way they must think it's good that only those with a
metric ton of cash can defend themselevs in this day and age.
I agree with a previous poster's sentiment: IBM has a metric ton of cash, and
has sided with the individual developer (meaning, via the GPL, the whole entire
world) on this.
After IBM wins, expect the FUD to shift as follows:
"Oh, well, yes, IBM won that one, but I mean come on. Who's going to defend
(say) your web-based open source accounting package? I don't see any
billion-dollar businesses behind that one, and it's more or less certain it
violates SOMEONE's patent. And what's going to stop a SCO from claiming code
infringment against it? It's unfortunate but that's just the way the world is.
Really it's irresponsible for you to deny this reality and continue to save
money with superior products."
I'm no spin doctor, but that will be the message, and we should really come up
with an happy marketing message to counteract it. (Bob, you mentioned a
marketing background...?)
Speaking of good counter-FUD, you will be AMAZED how many people get interested
in this lawsuit when you let them know Linux=Tivo.
-Paul Paul[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 07:13 PM EDT |
Also, PJ, do you have any ideas how long it will take IBM's countersuit to move
along? Do we still have to wait until 2005? Is there anything IBM could do to
speed things along? Just curious. Paul[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 07:42 PM EDT |
> Well, seriously, one doesn't purchase software in the hopes that it will work
24/7 if one is sane...
I have had several Linux2.2 and FreeBSD based machines that have uptimes of over
a year. For all intents and purposes the only time my systems have to be
rebooted is when I am doing a kernel upgrade. I know of at least one SUN server
that had a reported uptime of over three years. And in the mid 80's I had a VAX
running BSD 4.3 that was up for about 2 1/2 years, and the reason I was brought
down was to move it.
My only system that does not have siginificant uptime is my laptop, which only
gets used when I am not at home or at the office.
My experience is not abnormal. Good Unix and Unixlike oprerating systems are
extremely roubust.
Use FLOSS on good hardware and a program crash will not bring your system
down. D.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 08:00 PM EDT |
First, on the exhibits, they are in paper form at the court, not in digital,
that I know of. I gave you snips from 2 of the exhibits, and some of the
others, referenced by IBM, actually are the same exhibits as the ones in SCO's
complaint. Those exhibits you can get from their web site. There is a link in
my permanent page, Legal Links. All the court documents that I can find go
there.
Second, on whether IBM can speed this up. Yes, there are things they can do,
but there is no way to know if they will. You plan a strategy from the start,
but it's a strategy that can change, depending on your opponent, like chess.
My guess is that everyone is waiting to see if SCO actually sues anybody for not
getting the license. If they do that, I expect it to be raining paper in Utah.
And normally, not that anything here has been normal yet, after such a strong
answer with patent counterclaims gets filed, you'd expect some conversations to
be going on about settlement possibilities, either by phone or by letter. We
aren't likely to hear about that in public, though, even if it is happening.
Discovery goes on next, assuming no more major surprises, and lots of times one
side or the other gives up and cries uncle during that process. That's ongoing
in the IBM case already, as you can see on Pacer's list of the activity in the
case. So finding evidence right about now is very important to IBM and Red
Hat. pj[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 08:32 PM EDT |
On the first point, I was hoping just for a list of exhibits (i.e. what they are
in very brief summary), rather than the necessarily the contents of each.
I wonder if SCO will post IBM's latest stuff to their http://www.sco.com/ibmlawsuit/ as they
haven't yet quatermass[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 08:52 PM EDT |
MajorLeePissed; "I just wanted to comment about all this indemnification trash
talking that Microsoft, SCO, Sun, and all their cronies are foaming about the
mouth on."
"It seems to me very odd that SCO and Microsoft (or is that SCO = Microsoft?)
would all of a sudden start preaching about indemnity as if they actually care
for the wellbeing of the very users they are molesting."
I can take on the Microsoft and Sun issues, but will try to limit this to just
SCO.
Indemnification is not for ordinary MS end users. Microsoft has only just
announced some kind of non-retroactive plan for Enterprise and Select licensees.
Ordinary users in the millions have already found out that often they can't
recover any damages directly from Microsoft because their software was purchased
from an OEM and their state doesn't permit claims against Microsoft.
If you are familiar with the SCO complaint, you know that they quoted a press
report where an IBM executive explained that the patent and copyright issues in
so much code from so many contributors was the reason that IBM would not risk
doing distributions. He explained that the distributors were not as exposed as
IBM would be to lawsuits (go figure).
Well this might explain some of SCO's problems with indemnification. They are a
distributor and their Unix and Linux were largely developed elsewhere. They have
a lot of exposure. If you read IBM's conterclaim #6 The GNU General Public
License - nobody is indemnifying SCO for those "damages to be determined at
trial". If you look at those patent counterclaims you might wonder when SCO
began violating those (instead of merely looking at the date they were issued).
It's quite possible that SCO will not be able to claim indemnification from
anyone for those infringements either.
Sometimes you can turn weakness into a strength. For example your lack of
indemnification might spare you some grief or even become an affirmative
defense:
Plan #1 Laches and Delay
For example: http://www.theregi
ster.co.uk/content/archive/3980.html
27/04/1999 SCO president and CEO Doug Micheals has lashed-out at Linux and said
"The last thing [major companies] want is some kid from Norway to sue for $100
million for misappropriation of intellectual property."
Well it does look like it was going to be one of the last things they tried to
do:
http://news.zdnet.
co.uk/story/0,,t289-s2135391,00.html
"SCO Group chief executive Darl McBride said in a published report that his
company may take legal action against Linux founder Linus Torvalds was
overstated.
Responding to a portion of a Wednesday story by CBS Marketwatch that has
generated intense criticism from the Linux community, McBride said that
targeting Torvalds is unlikely."
http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,81709
,00.html
McBride says he will settle for a buyout, the article goes on to say:
"Asked why SCO has suddenly started looking at these issues now, after years of
declining revenues at his company and the increasing popularity of Linux,
McBride said SCO had few options in the late 1990s as Linux began surfacing in
the business computing world. "Even if you potentially had a problem [with
concerns about Unix code in Linux back then], what are you going to do?" McBride
asked. "Sue Linus Torvalds? And get what?"
So it seems that SCO's long drawn out plan to ambush Linus Torvalds if he ever
comes into any money may have to be scrapped under the doctrine of laches and
delay.
Plan #2 Promissory Estoppel, More Laches and Delay
SCO CEO Mr Michael's stated at a Project Monterey press conference that UNIX
vendors like IBM need to support Linux development:
http://www.cnn.co
m/TECH/computing/9908/18/scoforum.idg/
The involvement of both SCO and Caldera (as a Sponsor) in the Linux Trillian
Project
http://lwn.net/Comments/36053/
CEO Ransom Love not only talked about merging Linux and UNIX, but even started
to refer to Unixware as if it were a Linux product:
http://news.zdnet.
co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2093314,00.html
What does the future hold for your unified Linux/Unix platform? .....
"Linux is most widely deployed in embedded systems and low-end servers. Because
of the current economy, there is no funding for general Linux, so we will see
tremendous specialisation in these areas. WITH UNIXWARE WE CAN NOW TAKE LINUX TO
32-WAY SYSTEMS, and while we are not going into the embedded space we will
concentrate on thin client implementations as well as those server
implementations." (Emphasis added)
At SCO forum in August 2000 Ransom Love says that Independent Software Vendors
need to know that Linux is the future UNIX on Intel standard, while IBM
struggles to deliver on the Monterey Project contract with AIX5L. How then can
SCO now claim that IBM failed in it's obligations? It didn't declare Monterey
dead until the following May - even according to the SCO Group's complaint:
http://www.linuxjournal.
com/article.php?sid=5406
Consider the two stories above and Caldera's use of trademarks, i.e. Linux,
Unix, and Unixware belong to others.
You are probably asking yourself if any of this has anything to do with
indemnification?
If you look at the SCO/IBM/Novell contract Amendment no. X you will see in para
10 that SCO has indemnified IBM in an amount up to $10,125,000 if their
interpretation of para 5 "Authority" is wrong and Novell's is more correct in
the present case of SCO V IBM:)
So even if they drop the suit now they loose. Harlan[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 09:07 PM EDT |
To follow up on Harlan's post, not only did former Caldera (SCO Group) CEO,
Ransom Love, talk about improving Linux...
The original SCO (Tarantella) also had plans about about improving Linux SMP,
improving Linux clustering capability, and open sourcing some of their UNIX
code:
http://www.nwfusion.com/ne
ws/2000/0612sco.html
"Beefing up Linux's symmetric multiprocessing capabilities. Currently the number
of CPUs per Linux server is usually limited to eight; UnixWare can run on
servers with up to 32 CPUs."
http://slashdot.org
/interviews/00/05/05/0713234.shtml
"In some cases, we will be taking current technology that we think is needed in
the Linux market and driving it forward as the project maintainers. Right now,
we are focusing on bringing some of our high-performance Intel development tools
to Linux."
"In other cases, we will make some sources available as reference documents,
without a specific intention of driving them forward as projects." ... "Someone
else would be welcome to pick them up, if they saw a need." quatermass[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 09:23 PM EDT |
"You took me out to wine, dine, sixty-nine me
But didn't hear a damn word I said."
- Alanis Morissette, "Right Through You"
I couldn't get these lines out of my head as I read your description of Linux's
new toxic boyfriend. Seems appropriate, doesn't it?
My question: do you think IBM actually "gets it"? For that matter, what can a
business, which must be motivated by profit, ever hope to get? Maybe IBM just
understands that they won't get they the better and cheaper software they want
without satisfying the needs of the community that helps write it? Or maybe
they see a business advantage offered by the same freedom that the Free Software
movement seeks based on morality? Dave[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 10 2003 @ 10:40 PM EDT |
Indemnification and Linux do not really go together. If I give you a watch and
it fails, I have no legal liability. If I sell you a watch and it fails, there
is some sort of contractual or regulatory framework that makes me liable for
compensation. If I sell you an exploding watch and do nothing to prevent harm, I
am in serious trouble legally. Linux is a free watch. You may pay for
documentation, frills, service, but the software covered by GPL is essentially a
free watch. It is the burden of the recipient to wind it, clean it, set it, and
to rely on it to the extent it proves reliable. It is not the responsibility of
the giver. This is truly an example where it is better to give than to
receive.
In our litigious society, I think it is a great advantage to be involved with a
product that is less likely to draw litigation. The present skirmish is an
aberration. It is about strained relations, not Linux. When it becomes clear
that suing the big guys or the end users is futile, there will be few of these
adventures. Robert Pogson[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, August 11 2003 @ 12:14 AM EDT |
One thing to note IBM wouldn't mind if customers "upgraded" to AIX from Linux.
The difference between IBM and Sun is that Linux is not promoted exclusively as
a stepping stone. IBM Systems Group is in the business of selling hardware not
operating systems. IBM is working on making Linux a feasible alternative to AIX
for all customers.
Does IBM actually "get it"? That's hard to say. Why does IBM have developers
working on the Linux kernel? Because IBM customers want more "enterprise"
features in Linux. The community gets those features because of the GPL. IBM's
own open source license, the IBM Public License and Common Public License (it's
the same as the IPL), are OSI and DFSG (Debian Free Software Guidelines)
approved licenses. IBM's Eclipse IDE is released under the CPL. I think IBM is
still feeling out the whole opensource development thing. But in the end it
comes down to the bottom line. Does working on and contributing to an
opensource project help IBM? Pedantic[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, August 11 2003 @ 03:30 AM EDT |
Harlan and Quatermass, thanks for the informative responses. I wonder if IBM
and Red Hat have the SCO damning information and links you guys just pointed
out. It would be wonderful if someone could send that information to both IBM
and Red Hat's legal department. Thanks! =) MajorLeePissed[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, August 11 2003 @ 08:52 AM EDT |
I think IBM does "get it" if we were to consider IBM is a hardware/services
company. IBM designs and builds hardware to solve business problems. The
software, be it AIX or whatever, is built to let its customers maximize the
capability of the hardware. And writing software costs money. Lots of it. So
when Linux comes along, it solves one of IBM problems: reduce or eliminate
software development cost. Every business loves to reduce cost of operation and
maximize profits. It appeals to IBM because the GPL allows IBM total freedom to
modify the source code to meet its need, or more precisely, the need of its
customers with mimimal cost. IBM recognizes the power of opensource community to
solve the problem quickly and they are taking advantage of it.
Consider all the benefits opensource and the GPL bring, I would say that IBM
will vigorously defend itself against SCO because in the long run IBM will save
itself lots of money. That's the bottomline. Quan[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, August 11 2003 @ 09:11 AM EDT |
I wish to reiterate that it is not prudent to take any steps at all in the legal
area without
legal advice from your own attorney.
I'll give you an example of what I mean. Let's imagine for a moment: suppose
every reader here sent IBM an email. Next, discovery in the trial. SCO asks
for
the emails for the last, oh, three months. Maybe IBM says no and it goes to the
judge.
Imagine the judge says OK. IBM turns over the email. Now SCO has a handy list
of
probable GNU/Linux users. Hmm. Imagine next they decide to "select" end users
to sue,
as Sontag yesterday said they intend to do. Catch my drift? It's not as good
as getting
everyone to send a letter to SCO by registered or certified mail, which is legal
proof, by
the way, the method snookered tried to get everyone to use, but it's a fine
start. Didn't
think of that? Well, there's lots more you might not think of. And that's why
it's best to do nothing without your own attorney's advice first.
Anyway, I consider it a given that IBM and Red Hat know about Groklaw and read
it. I also consider
it a given that SCO does too. pj[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, August 11 2003 @ 09:57 AM EDT |
PJ,
As usaual you have given sage advise.
As we all know SCO Group has sent nastygrams to between 1400 and 1500 large
users (the number varies from report to report) and has threatened to sue these
same users if they don't pay up.
One can safely assume, given SCO Group's actions since January, that they could
very well go after "small" users next. If and when they do, I do not expect them
to attack any one who has made friendly comments about them and their methods of
operation.
I am not a lawyer, nor am I a paralegal, I am just a veteran coder who has seen
way too much (and in my opinion, silly) litigation over software over the
years. D.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, August 11 2003 @ 06:44 PM EDT |
In an analogy portraying Linux as a woman, she doesn't come out looking all that
great. Linux is a slut, willing to go with any guy who asks her, and she
doesn't really care a lot whether the relationship is good for the guy or not.
She'll even take what one guy tells her and pass it on to all the others. But
at least she's an honest slut: she doesn't try to pretend to be anything other
than what she is.
If Sun is two-timing Linux by also going with Solaris, Linux is doing far worse
to Sun by also going with IBM, HP, Red Hat, SuSE, and countless others. When
Linux offers Sun no special loyalty, why should Linux expect any special loyalty
in return? Why shouldn't Linux expect Sun to be merely out to use her, just as
she is merely out to use him?
If Linux wants to be Sun's one and only, she has to either give up all her other
guys (which is so much against her nature as to be manifestly impossible) or
convince Sun that she is worth his undivided loyalty in spite of her lack of any
special loyalty to him. So far, she has not done so.
In case I've given anyone the wrong impression, I very definitely want Linux to
succeed. But I want it to succeed on its own merits, not because people get so
blinded by a particular concept of ideological purity that they ignore questions
of what actually works best in the real world. Nathan Barclay[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, August 11 2003 @ 07:14 PM EDT |
Nathan,
In my not very humble opinion, the analogy is apt. GNU/Linux is the Belle of the
Ball at the present time. And She has many suiters. Some have lost (Caldera),
some have mixed intentions (SUN) and some have what seem to be paternerlistic
intentions (IBM, RedHat, and ?). D.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, August 12 2003 @ 08:06 AM EDT |
The analogy is apt, but slightly flawed.
Linux is a girl who replicates herself at will. Your particular version is as
true to you as you are to her. Only when you try round up all of her sisters,
and trap them in some kind of twisted bondage scheme (often referred to by the
slang term, EULA), does the relationship break down.
SCO thought that Linux was pretty hot, and even had dreams of true love, but
couldn't control his jealousy, when he saw her twins around town with other
guys. Now he's lashing out at her for ruining his relationship with Unixware,
his middle-aged wife.
Sun likes Linux's looks, too, but can't stop himself from bad-mouthing her,
because of her supposed "loose morals".
Microsoft doesn't like Linux, but most everyone agrees that he's into
beastiality. BigB[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 13 2003 @ 09:17 AM EDT |
BigB,
lmfao. eXec[ Reply to This | # ]
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