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Torvalds pours scorn on De Icaza's desktop claims | 306 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Torvalds pours scorn on De Icaza's desktop claims
Authored by: SilverWave on Sunday, September 02 2012 @ 07:35 PM EDT
Quote: "In fact, Linux pretty much did what I envisioned back in 1991 when
I first released it. Pretty much all subsequent development was driven by
outside ideas of what other people needed or wanted to do. Not by some internal
vision of where things 'should' go.

"That's exactly the reverse of the gnome 'we know better' mentality, and
"We will force Corba/.NET down your throat whether you like it or not, and
if you complain, you're against progress, and cannot handle the change'.

"Some gnome people seem to be in total denial about what their problem
really is. They'll wildly blame everybody except themselves. This article seems
to be a perfect example of that."

---
RMS: The 4 Freedoms
0 run the program for any purpose
1 study the source code and change it
2 make copies and distribute them
3 publish modified versions

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Alan Cox Quote:
Authored by: SilverWave on Sunday, September 02 2012 @ 07:39 PM EDT
"Gnome isn't really a desktop anyway - it's a research project."

---
RMS: The 4 Freedoms
0 run the program for any purpose
1 study the source code and change it
2 make copies and distribute them
3 publish modified versions

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Torvalds pours scorn on De Icaza's desktop claims
Authored by: PJ on Sunday, September 02 2012 @ 08:42 PM EDT
Miguel isn't a Gnome person any more.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Torvalds pours scorn on De Icaza's desktop claims
Authored by: odysseus on Monday, September 03 2012 @ 08:38 AM EDT
Yeah, I really don't understand where MdI is coming from saying the desktops
don't take backwards compatibility seriously. They may play fast and lose in
the Gnome world, but in the Qt/KDE world we take it very seriously, to a great
extent thanks to Qt's commercial clients requiring it. Within any major release
we maintain binary compatibility. Between major release we break binary
compatibility, but we provide the old libraries in such a way that you can
continue to run the old apps, i.e. KDE3 apps run just find on a KDE4 desktop.
We tend to break source compatibility every couple of major release, i.e.
between KDE1 and KDE2, and KDE3 and KDE4 we made major changes (while providing
compatibility classes), but between KDE2 and KDE3, and between KDE4 and KDE5 the
porting requirements will be minimal.

But then I stopped listening to MiG after about 6 months of drinking his
kool-aid. It's a shame most of the outside world still views him as a
spokesperson for FOSS when he hasn't been that for many many years.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Torvalds pours scorn on De Icaza's desktop claims
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 03 2012 @ 05:14 PM EDT

The original article by de Icaza looks like a long excuse for "why every project I was in charge of was a failure (or at least until I left and someone else came along to fix it)".

His article starts with setting up a straw man right in the title "what killed the Linux desktop". The Linux desktop is dead? Says who? This is along the same lines as "have you stopped beating your wife?"

He tries to kick off the discussion with the old troll of "with Linux you have to hack your kernel to get sound to work". This is despite the fact that very few people have problems with sound on Linux, probably no more than people have with sound on MS Windows. In more than ten years of using Linux, I've never had problems with sound, and I don't personally know of anyone who has. I have had problems with sound on MS Windows, but I don't jump to the conclusion that Windows sound problems are endemic.

As for "all open source developers now use OS/X", he doesn't provide any facts to support that contention, he just states it as a "fact" and then bases his argument off it. The problem I have with accepting that is that for the major software projects that I have some involvement with, the biggest problem is the lack of developers using OS/X who could at least test the software. The developers mainly use Linux, with some who have MS Windows (often as a secondary testing machine). OS/X problems tend to get discovered after release when bug reports get filed by users.

So what is de Icaza's actual problem here? And who is this "we" he keeps referring to. He's had little to no involvement with the larger Linux/Free Software community in years, other than to post the occasional flame bait about them.

His current business involves selling proprietary phone development software for iPhones and Android. Perhaps this is the root of his complaint. If you go to his company's web site (Xamarin), you will find that the documentation for his product assumes that you are using a Mac with OS/X. In fact, there's no sign that you have any other option. There's no obvious sign of any Linux support (as a development platform). In other words, when de Icaza says "the Linux desktop is dead and everyone uses Macs" he means "my proprietary product only runs on a Mac".

So, let me take a guess what really happened here. I imagine that someone said "why can't I find any information on how to run your software on Linux?" De Icaza then responded "Linux, oh yeh, well uh, that's because nobody uses that thing anymore anyway, so uh, that's uh, the reason".

De Icaza has a long history of jumping on bandwagons just before the wheels fall off. I could list everything starting from his Norton Commander clone to his Outlook clone and on to his DotNet clone, but that would be pointless. I don't put Gnome in the category of a failed clone, but then people spent years after de Icaza left ripping out his MS OLE clone. The problem with just cloning ideas is that you have to know enough to not clone the bad ones. De Icaza never saw a bad idea that he didn't like.

Apple is worried about Samsung? Apple has bigger problems than that. De Icaza thinks that Apple's stuff is "cool". If I was Apple, I would be very worried about what was wrong with my software.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Too quick to start a squabble
Authored by: hopethishelps on Tuesday, September 04 2012 @ 02:09 AM EDT

Whay can't we all just get along in the Free Software community?

MdI was careless to ruffle Torvalds' feathers. But Linus' response is uncalled-for. Skip that sentence in Miguel's article (which is here) and he does raise some sensible questions (though I don't think much of his answers).

It's true that Linux still has negligible penetration on the desktop. I've used nothing else for years, but the great mass of desktop users have never heard of Linux. We do need to understand why.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

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