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It sure looks like a tax. | 212 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
It sure looks like a tax.
Authored by: OmniGeek on Friday, June 29 2012 @ 09:01 AM EDT
While the individual mandate may not be explicitly framed as a tax on uninsured
individuals, it certainly appears to function like one. Individuals are required
to pay a specified amount to the IRS; that payment is waived if the individual
meets certain economic criteria.

I agree that the individual mandate isn't formally a tax, but I also maintain
that it is functionally equivalent to one. Hence, I can understand a judge
deciding that it isn't a tax (form), and I can also understand a judge deciding
that it is (function). I don't think this is anything like the massive
conceptual reach some folks do.

For quite a while, I've thought that the potential constitutional issue of the
mandate could be remedied by framing the mandate's penalty as a tax, with an
exemption for insured persons. Setting aside the political issues involved in
using the word "tax," the effect would be equivalent. It is
interesting to see that the Supreme Court took the same view, choosing to
prioritize function over form here.

---
My strength is as the strength of ten men, for I am wired to the eyeballs on
espresso.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Having ObamaCare - Maybe This Is Only Funny To A Lawyer
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, June 29 2012 @ 09:19 AM EDT
"1. Is it a tax? At least 5 Justices said "No"."

No that is not what they said.

Read the complete ruling. At least 5 judges said that because ObamaCare is a tax
it ObamaCare is legal under under the current judicial action. If I recall I
believe this is item 3 on page 2 if that helps. They explicitly did not rule
ObamaCare legal as a tax since that was not before the court.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Having ObamaCare - Maybe This Is Only Funny To A Lawyer
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, June 29 2012 @ 11:03 AM EDT
Judging from some of the comments here there are a number who simply do not
understand the SCOTUS ruling on ObamaCare.

In computer terms it went like this.

Part 1
If ObamaCare != Tax then ObamaCare may be brought before the court and falls
under the Commerce clause and as such it is unconstitutional.
Part 2
If ObamaCare = Tax then ObamaCare may not be brought before the court due to
admentment 10 of the constitution and as such is constructional because that
question is not before the court. In order to bring the constitutionality of
ObamaCare as a tax before the court the tax must be paid before any action may
be filed concerning ObamaCare. ObamaCare will take effect in 2 years. It takes 2
to 3 years after filing before the issue may be brought to the Supreme Court.
Two years to take effect plus 2 to 3 years to pass through the court system = 4
to 5 years forward. Four to five years forward is just in time for the next
presidential election.
Part 3
ObamaCare is a tax and as such is constitutional. At least it is until an action
of the tax constitutionality is brought before us and we rule on it.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Having ObamaCare - Maybe This Is Only Funny To A Lawyer
Authored by: PJ on Friday, June 29 2012 @ 07:02 PM EDT
I see a long thread, so I won't just remove it, but guys, if you are going to discuss this, at least read the decision. Otherwise nothing you say is worth anything.

Here [PDF]. 193 pages.

The health care act was not called a tax. Period. The penalty on those who choose not to pay was viewed legally as a tax, in that Congress has the right to tax folks by making them pay a penalty if they don't do stuff. But if you figure out the money, it may be that it's to your advantage to pay the tax rather than pay for insurance, and that's up to you. It's your choice, and there is no law broken no matter which you choose.

People who are single pay a tax that married people don't, for example. You don't have to get married, but you save money if you do. With the penalty, it can never be greater than what your insurace would have been and it might be less, and the normal IRS penalties for failure to get insurance aren't there, so they can't put you in jail. You haven't broken the law. You are allowed to pay the penalty/tax if that is your preference.

That tax goes into the pool. The entire plan depends on people who are healthy paying insurance, so there is a big pool of all sorts of healthy and sick people, and the healthy pay for the sick, just like when large companies have group insurace. No different. ANd nobody knows when he's going to be one or the most sick, but in the meantime, you pay in. Like all insurance, it's a gamble for both sides. By arranging it that way, with everyone paying in, except for the very poor, it will be possible for everyone to have coverage, even those with pre-existing conditions who currently may not be able to get insurance at any price.

Because insurance is a gamble, the current situation is that companies want you only when you are not sick. Once you have cancer, they don't want to cover you or only at rates most can't afford. The situation spreads those expenses to everyone, in the end, of course, because in America, we don't let the sick just die, not on purpose, although there is no doubt some have died prematurely for lack of coverage.

Some with cancer or other long term illnesses have insurance but when they reach a certain amount of money, they get cut off. How would you like that to happen to your mom or dad? It's happening now.

And the problem with not carrying insurance is that when you have an accident or get wildly ill, you show up at the hospital emergency room, and now you can't pay your bill. So the rest of us pay for that with higher premiums and taxes. For most of us, this bill will be a cost reduction. It's not sustainable. So the bill forces free loaders to pay their fair share one way or another. Since everyone eventually uses health care, this just prevents unfairness.

Or that is the goal. Everyone wants services, but no one wants to pay. That's what taxes do, is pay for things that are essential and everyone needs, police, fire, health care, roads.

30 million people in the US currently have no coverage at all. That is beyond sad, but it is also very, very expensive, in that they only go to the emergency room when things are serious, not when they could have been prevented.

I have a neighbor whose daughter has needed surgery for all the years I've known them, and they couldn't afford it and no doctor would help them. In 2014, she will be able get that surgery.

Finally, only 2% of the population is expected to have to pay the penalty, so if it's a tax, it's not a tax on you, 98% of you. It's a tax on that small number that can afford health insurance but don't want it. And once again, they break no law if that is their choice.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

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