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Yes, I've been wondering about this. | 393 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Can't have it both ways.
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 25 2012 @ 10:06 AM EDT
They also seem to be arguing that google blatantly stole 9 lines of their code
verbatim, and those 9 lines managed to somehow work and somehow still doesn't
qualify as compatibility.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Yes, I've been wondering about this.
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 25 2012 @ 10:11 AM EDT
"You, copied our API"... "And you're fragmenting Java"

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Can't have it both ways.
Authored by: Henning Makholm on Friday, May 25 2012 @ 10:14 AM EDT
I don't think Oracle actually cares about "fragmenting Java". That was Sun's shtick.

The argument Oracle seems to be making is: "Since one cannot reuse Java programs on Android without rewriting them anyway, Google's compatibility defense has no basis in reality. Google's doesn't get anything from stealing Oracle's APIs that they wouldn't have gotten fairly and squarely from paying some engineers to develop an API of their own from scratch -- except that stealing was cheaper."

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Can't have it both ways.
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 25 2012 @ 11:46 AM EDT

I find it funny that Oracle complains about having to compete against an oh-so-evil no-cost implemementation of Java, when Sun GPLed (most of) Java, and was A-OK with independent implementations...

(vonbrand, password not at hand ATM)

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Can't have it both ways.
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 25 2012 @ 02:47 PM EDT

You are conflating Oracle's claims from different contexts.

SSO is the basis to decide if a program is copied or not. The hard work point is made to say that the arrangement of the java packages and classes and the specific signatures of the methods are not out of a textbook but are a creative work which evolved as concepts met reality. Note, creative is not the same as novel. Of course the java platform designers and implementers were aware of Objective-C, SmallTalk, and C++, and were cracker-jacks with regards to OS APIs via access to the development history of Sun's Solaris product.

As a digression, the virtual machine is meant to have operating system functionality while staying within a sandbox, i.e, its functionality is constrained.

As to the hard work argument — not evidence — made by an Oracle attorney, it was to communicate that Google saved itself some work and costs in development and some non-trivial costs of developing and evangelizing a new language if the SDK was to have the benefits of java-like language. I cannot emphasize enough that even in 2006 java was considered deficient as a development language. Clearly an implication to be found in Lindholm's e-mail is that they looked for something better, which one does not do except there are issues with their first choice. (Were the deficiencies strictly license-related. Again, my recollection of the times was that java was no longer the cool kid, and indeed within 24 months of the 2006 time frame, a half-dozen important languages and frameworks were created and took off, some of which used the jvm, but nearly all of them were a critique-by-design on java's verbosity. Two years later and maybe the primary language for the SDK would be Ruby compiled to a byte code.

Google does not dispute that Sun worked hard to create and nurture java. Google does not dispute that its costs would have been greater had it used C++ or a new language.

Oracle says Google copied something and claims that it is protected under some theory of copyright law as applied to programming languages. Google's defense could be that it had no access to materials, and therefore could not have copied. Google did not say this. They said they started by looking at Apache Harmony. Google instead argues that what they copied is not protected and if it was, their copying was de minimis, or their use is fair use and they justify the latter point under a few doctrines of copyright law.

SSO and hard work are not on point any more, if they ever were in this trial. By this I mean as you seek to refute Oracle's commentaries in today's briefings, you have to argue, using the language of the briefs, where they made a mistake in the law or characterization of the points and cases for which the Judge requested commentary.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

It's copyright - they didn't copy it right :-)
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, May 27 2012 @ 04:36 AM EDT
n/t

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

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