decoration decoration
Stories

GROKLAW
When you want to know more...
decoration
For layout only
Home
Archives
Site Map
Search
About Groklaw
Awards
Legal Research
Timelines
ApplevSamsung
ApplevSamsung p.2
ArchiveExplorer
Autozone
Bilski
Cases
Cast: Lawyers
Comes v. MS
Contracts/Documents
Courts
DRM
Gordon v MS
GPL
Grokdoc
HTML How To
IPI v RH
IV v. Google
Legal Docs
Lodsys
MS Litigations
MSvB&N
News Picks
Novell v. MS
Novell-MS Deal
ODF/OOXML
OOXML Appeals
OraclevGoogle
Patents
ProjectMonterey
Psystar
Quote Database
Red Hat v SCO
Salus Book
SCEA v Hotz
SCO Appeals
SCO Bankruptcy
SCO Financials
SCO Overview
SCO v IBM
SCO v Novell
SCO:Soup2Nuts
SCOsource
Sean Daly
Software Patents
Switch to Linux
Transcripts
Unix Books

Gear

Groklaw Gear

Click here to send an email to the editor of this weblog.


You won't find me on Facebook


Donate

Donate Paypal


No Legal Advice

The information on Groklaw is not intended to constitute legal advice. While Mark is a lawyer and he has asked other lawyers and law students to contribute articles, all of these articles are offered to help educate, not to provide specific legal advice. They are not your lawyers.

Here's Groklaw's comments policy.


What's New

STORIES
No new stories

COMMENTS last 48 hrs
No new comments


Sponsors

Hosting:
hosted by ibiblio

On servers donated to ibiblio by AMD.

Webmaster
PJ's 100-dollar-question | 484 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
PJ's 100-dollar-question
Authored by: AntiFUD on Tuesday, May 15 2012 @ 09:04 PM EDT
Perhaps he should take a page (or perhaps the SSO) out of Microsoft's book and
issue his ruling under an NDA (Eye's Only for the 9th Circuit).

---
IANAL - Free to Fight FUD - "to this very day"

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

PJ's 100-dollar-question
Authored by: symbolset on Tuesday, May 15 2012 @ 11:24 PM EDT
Since we know that he's a programmer now, it seems likely he's holding back his
ruling that APIs aren't copyrightable until after the damages phase so as to
avoid biasing the jury on the other issues they must consider. That ruling has
nothing to do with them now, one way or the other.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

PJ's 100-dollar-question
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 16 2012 @ 12:19 AM EDT

By now everyone is rolling their eyes when I bring this up, this thing we're calling java'a API is not really an API, because java is a language and standard set of libraries and not an application. While the ideas behind java, e.g., the formal grammar and specific keywords and concepts of how a programmer interacts with the computer are not protectable by copyright, the expression of these things, as in the published specification and documentation, is.

The documentation reveals a structure that is a creative work, in that choices were made. There was no inherent reason why Gosling and fellows had 166 packages and not 165 or 167. Google looked and copied the documentation that Apache had which was a copy of Sun's documentation, to the depth of the names of the packages, classes, and methods. Google did not take a little from this and a little from that, but grabbed in their entirety certain packages. Google didn't have to do this: there was no interoperability that was necessary. It was a shortcut in order to get to market faster.

We all understand that when we discuss copyright law, we have to distinguish between recordings, choreography, books, plays, dictionaries, music composition, computer programs, etc., and, indeed, a computer language is not a program or application, which do have good case law. (The programs connected to a particular language are the parser, compiler or interpreter.) Most languages are defined in academia or have been contributed to standards bodies by their creators (probably after they realized that there was no commercial advantage to be the solitary source. Also, the value is in the compiler, interpreter or runtime.) There are a few languages which were made by a vendor for strategic purposes and java is one: it never was submitted to a standards body. So here was a case where discrete parts of a vendor-controlled language were copied by another commercial entity. This is why this case is unusual and the Judge asks "Can a language by copyrighted?"

Java is also a standard library. As the Android standard library is very different, is it a copy of Oracle's java? There are similarities (semi-colons show the end of statements, new is the keyword that causes an Object to be instantiated) that are not protectable. But, if one looked at a listing akin to O'Reilly's Java in a Nutshell of the 37 packages for either Oracle or Google's java and it'd look the same. To concentrated to be casual, too exact to be an accident. There was copying of something written.

I've decided that I believe that what Google copied (from Harmony), though significant, was not enough to matter. I liken it to someone writing a dictionary, by taking Webster's and writing down the words that are defined and then writing totally original definitions (or definitions informed by original research in usage and history.) The important part was not copied.

Now that I know the Judge writes programs, I think he understands that the law on applications doesn't quite fit computer languages owned by a vendor, such as java. I now think it is more likely that he will understand that Google looked up the documentation and then wrote their own work, which is the process of programming: look up what we don't remember and use. Before we had autoboxing in the java language, I had use for a dynamic Object that contained primitive int values. I looked at the List language to pick method names that any one else looking at my code would expect given the functionality I was implementing. For example, the count of values in the IntList was size(). I may have toyed with implementing the List interface. I did call it an IntList. As I've said before, writing a program is taking a language and its library and extending it so as to facilitate the applications that solve my problems. Or, to speak in mathematical terms, take the axioms and theorems provided by the language, library, and frameworks, and prove new theorems. When I'm using functional programming, that's very close to what I'm doing: writing a small unit that does one thing correctly without side effects and then compose the units.

Speaking of dynamic, Jacobs was using it correctly, just not in the same context as the patent. He was saying it was dynamic because the byte code writer did different things when placed on different hardware and I can see the word making sense there. But, the patent was about things that happened at run-time regarding filling in actual value to dereference symbols (which contained no information about actual memory location) left in the byte code at compilation. The testimony from both sides seemed consistent on proving the fact that Google was doing things statically.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Groklaw © Copyright 2003-2013 Pamela Jones.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners.
Comments are owned by the individual posters.

PJ's articles are licensed under a Creative Commons License. ( Details )