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Language Compatibility | 388 comments | Create New Account
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Compatibility redux
Authored by: Gringo_ on Sunday, May 06 2012 @ 01:36 AM EDT

If Google had released incompatible core APIs

How could they? That is impossible. You could not use Java if they did that.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

I'm also a developer and I endorse this comment n/t
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, May 06 2012 @ 06:49 AM EDT
N/t

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Something I don't understand - where does gcc fit?
Authored by: tqft on Sunday, May 06 2012 @ 06:50 AM EDT
Looking at

http://gcc.gnu.org/java/
and
http://android-dls.com/wiki/index.php%3ftitle=Compiling_for_Android

gcc can convert java source code to either bytecode or machine language.

How and where does gcc "see" the api?



---
anyone got a job good in Brisbane Australia for a problem solver? Currently
under employed in one job.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

IF Google had released incompatible core APIs in Android. Sun would have screamed bloody murder
Authored by: SilverWave on Sunday, May 06 2012 @ 07:44 AM EDT
Yes this nails it.

Quote: "Imagine what would have happened if in 2007 Google did exactly what
Oracle is now insisting they should have done: release new, totally incompatible
core APIs in Android. Sun would have screamed bloody murder and rightly so.
Releasing incompatible core APIs would have truly fractured the Java community.
It would have been very difficult for developers to switch between using
Sun-Java and using Android-Java. There would be almost no code reuse between the
two systems. Anyone who tried to switch from one to the other would generate
tons of bugs as they tried to get their fingers accustomed to the new system. It
would be like changing around the keys on the keyboard. You could eventually get
used to the new layout but the transition would be difficult and your
productivity would plummet every time you switched from one to the other.
"



---
RMS: The 4 Freedoms
0 run the program for any purpose
1 study the source code and change it
2 make copies and distribute them
3 publish modified versions

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Proving parallel lines never meet
Authored by: Gringo_ on Sunday, May 06 2012 @ 10:56 AM EDT

One of the methods of proving parallel lines never meet is to simply assume that they do meet somewhere way out there where you can't see the convergence point, then considering that hypothesis, what would the interior angles be of a triangle constructed with a vertical line crossing the parallel lines, and the convergence point? Since the internal angles of a triangle must add up to 180 degrees, and the two angles at hand add up to 180 degrees, the third angle must be 0, and if we draw a line at 0 degrees to an existing line that new line would simply be a continuation of the first, etc...

JBB invites us to "Imagine what would have happened if in 2007 Google did exactly what Oracle is now insisting they should have done: release new, totally incompatible core APIs in Android."

That is the same thing as imagining parallel lines meeting, because if you create totally incompatible core APIs for Java, it no longer supports Java. You cannot somehow magically "extend" Java by replacing the core. This would not be an extension - it would be a new language. There is no Java without the core. There is nothing there. You can't even write c = a + b, where these are integers, because you have no object class, and no "class" class, and you have no integers.

I just don't get why people feel this discussion is in any way useful to answering the judge's question - unless you frame it as I have framed a discussion on the question of parallel lines meeting.

I have given reasons in other comments why I think it is bad to have people suggesting Google could have avoided using the Java API by selecting different names and SSO. One reason is that such a suggestion is fodder for the fudsters, who would like to use such a proposition to demonstrate Google's "callous and blatant infringement". "They could have used their own names and SSO but they stole Oracle's!"

Another concern is the judge think Google could have avoided this war with Oracle and "fragmenting Java" by simply having used different names and SSO, but "brazenly chose not to."

A third concern is: What if the judge is pondering a possible compromise? Suppose he is thinking it won't be the end of the world if he rules in favour of Oracle because Google could simply use different names and SSO?

Is there anybody out there who understands what I am trying to say?

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

Language Compatibility
Authored by: ghopper on Tuesday, May 08 2012 @ 12:23 PM EDT
Nicely put. Nearly all existing libraries make use of one or more of these APIs. It would be painful to write a program without them.
If Google had released incompatible core APIs...
If Google had changed these core APIs, then it wouldn't be Java. It would be a different language. And, by the way, Google has developed several languages over the last 10 years. Java isn't perfect, but the popularity and installed base compensate for its deficiencies as a language.

Oracle is playing a dangerous game here. If they get what they are asking for, I predict Google will switch to a different language entirely. This is what Microsoft did when they fought over Java in the 90s (eventually leading to C#). I thought Sun had learned their lesson, and that the JCP meant an open and collaborative future for Java. Oracle apparently does not agree. If Oracle wins this battle, they wont like the long- term result.

There is an interesting (but lengthy) post on blogspot from 2007 that covers some of the difficulties of creating the "next big language". If nothing else, this post proves that engineers at Google where considering this issue when they made these decisions about Android. A great comment on scobleizer even mentions Java

Java, for example, is too corporate, and is one of the reasons a lot of people hate it. Until Sun completely releases it under the GPL, I know a lot of people who won't even touch it. Java's not that great of a language anyway.
I wonder if Google could create a language that doesn't end up turning evil.

[ Reply to This | Parent | # ]

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