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Denmark Votes No with Comments to OOXML |
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Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 11:35 AM EDT
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It's official. Denmark will vote no with comments on OOXML. Here is the press release. It's in Danish, of course, so here's something in English for you, Leif Lodahl's blog, where he says he just received an email from Danish Standards that the vote will be no with comments. 64 pages of them. And he lists a handy English to Danish translator, but that doesn't help us, so if you instead try the Danish to English page, you get confirmation that they believe the comments need to be addressed before OOXML is ready to be declared a standard. Of course, as Andy Updegrove pointed out yesterday, there has been a last-minute surge in new members on the subcommittee that will work on the comments. We have a human translation now, thanks to Groklaw member The Pirate. Thank you!
*******************************
Office Open XML-document standard - Dansk Standard has cast Denmark's
vote
Dansk Standard (the Danish Standard's institute) has on behalf of
Denmark voted "No with Comments" to the proposed standard ISO/IEC DIS
29500 OOXML. This means, that DS will cooperate with the standards committee to
approve Office Open XML as a ISO/IEC standard, if certain problems is
addressed.
The ISO (International Standards Organization) proposal of the standard ISO/IEC
DIS 29500 OOXML has been reviewed since last new year. The proposal is if Office
Open XML ought to become a ISO/IEC standard. DS has as national standards
institute just cast the vote for Denmark.
The treatment of the proposal has happened in a committee under DS, with 33
companies and organizations joining in. The IT & Telecommunications
ministerial board has participated with status as an observer.
ISO/IEC DIS 29500 OOXML went through a public hearing in the spring, where it has
been open for everybody to send in their comments. DS received 39 hearing
comments.
The committee's finding
The committee has worked constructively, and through the late summer very intensely
with -- amongst other things -- the hearing comments. The result of this was that
the committee on a meeting the 24th of August in consensus agreed on a list of
subjects for improvement of ISO/IEC DIS 29500 OOXML. The committee recommended to
DS that these subjects are handed over to ISO. The committee did not conduct a
guiding vote.
The vote of Denmark
DS has based the vote of Denmark on the consensus evaluation among the
contributing parties, and the committee's recommendation.
Denmark will in the following process work for an approval for ISO/IEC DIS 29500
OOXML, if the points of concern raised by the committee are addressed. With
the vote 'No with comments' DS ensures the best starting point for the Danish
wishes for the changes to the standard.
Further process
All national standards organizations must hand in their national vote and
comments to ISO, at the latest by 2nd September 2007. The final decision if
Office Open XML will become a ISO/IEC standard is expected to be made in a common
meeting in Geneva on the 25-29 February 2008. In this meeting DS will
participate as a part of a delegation that has been appointed by the standards
committee. In the delegation, further members will be CIBER Denmark, IBM
Denmark, Microsoft Denmark and the 5th magistrate of Aarhus commune (Children
and Youth)
Further information
Jesper Jerlang, Vice director of DS
(email & phone number)
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Authored by: feldegast on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 11:54 AM EDT |
So they can be fixed
---
IANAL
My posts are ©2004-2007 and released under the Creative Commons License
Attribution-Noncommercial 2.0
P.J. has permission for commercial use.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Aladdin Sane on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 11:56 AM EDT |
Off Topic thread for comments not related to the story above.
--- Free
minds, Free software [ Reply to This | # ]
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- [OT] WAY Off Topic thread - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 12:01 PM EDT
- [OT] Darl McBride interviewed by InformationWeek/Weak - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 02:12 PM EDT
- ConsortiumInfo.org....What Happens Next - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 02:26 PM EDT
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- UK LinuxWorld show postponed until spring - Authored by: Aladdin Sane on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 04:56 PM EDT
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- Why I Love Linux -- Part ?? In An Occassional Series - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 01:10 AM EDT
- Why I Love Linux -- Part ?? In An Occassional Series - Authored by: klog on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 01:52 AM EDT
- Why I Love Linux -- Part ?? In An Occassional Series - Authored by: micheas on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 03:47 AM EDT
- suggestion - Authored by: grouch on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 04:20 AM EDT
- ISO 9660 is a data format - Authored by: JamesK on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 07:04 AM EDT
- Why I Love Linux -- Part ?? In An Occassional Series - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 08:08 AM EDT
- Why I Love Linux -- Part ?? In An Occassional Series - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 09:15 AM EDT
- kiso for Linux, or just discovered poweriso for Linux as well - Authored by: warner on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 09:47 PM EDT
- [OT] MS remains in possession - Authored by: grouch on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 04:43 AM EDT
- Microsoft salutes debate on Office Open XML - Authored by: Winter on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 06:20 AM EDT
- Neat Unix timeline. - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 07:00 AM EDT
- The very first computer virus 'found in the wild' - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 07:28 AM EDT
- MPAA to start deporting 'CRIMINALS' to North Korea ? - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 12:07 PM EDT
- "Windows Vista SP1 is due approximately one year from the system's fun-filled launch" - Authored by: Aladdin Sane on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 01:08 PM EDT
- GPL Hindering Two-Way Code Sharing ? - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 02:54 PM EDT
- [OT] Off Topic thread - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 03 2007 @ 12:23 PM EDT
- ANSI comments - incredible... - Authored by: GLJason on Tuesday, September 04 2007 @ 12:35 AM EDT
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Authored by: Aladdin Sane on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 11:59 AM EDT |
The News Picks thread is where you can comment on News Picks
articles.
Placing the title of the News Pick in your comment title is most
helpful.
--- Free minds, Free software [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: phantomjinx on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 12:09 PM EDT |
In reference to uiCombat97to2003 and a couple of other tags...
"If this is correct, then Microsoft is the only company who can provide a
complete and correct implementation of the ECMA-376 Office Open XML
specification", page 9.
Looks like they hit the nail right on the head with that conclusion. Would M$
prefer it if that conclusion was indeed the case?
Answers on a postage stamp.
phantomjinx
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: SilverWave on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 12:13 PM EDT |
Its like watching a train wreck...
What are they thinking ://
---
"intellectual property" - a propaganda term designed to confuse patent law with
copyright and other unrelated laws and to muddy the different issues they raise.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Aladdin Sane on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 12:31 PM EDT |
I admit that I confuse European countries sometimes, especially Scandinavian
ones. To help me keep track, I looked for previous articles on Groklaw about
Denmark.
The only other recent one was:
OOXML News
From Denmark
But the one before that was:
Microsoft and
the OOXML ISO standard process
Saturday, March 03 2007 @ 09:48 AM
EST
This article, from March, provides some context and insight into
current European happenings:
Numerous public administrations (in
North America, Latin America, but especially in Europe) have taken steps
encouraging, and sometimes imposing, the use of the ODF format in
administrations. In France, the General Reference for Interoperability (RGI)iv
defined by the General Management of State Modernization recommends the use by
administrations of this ODF format, cited under its International Standard
ISO/CEI 26300 reference. Other, similar initiatives exist, notably, in Europe,
Belgium and Denmark; across the Atlantic, the federal states of Massachussetts,
Minnesota, and Texas have also taken similar measures.
What was
happening in March seems to add some perspective to what is happening
now.
Some may also find it interesting to note that PJ has mentioned
Denmark 26 times in Groklaw stories, more than I would have guessed.
Bill
Gates strong arms Denmark on Software Patents in 2005:
Gates v.
Denmark
All 26 articles:
Search results
--- Free minds, Free software [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: tiger99 on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 02:30 PM EDT |
To paraphrase Shakespeare, whose works are out of copyright even in the
US. Well done Denmark! I hope that the countries we have not heard
from yet, including the UK, are also going to do the right thing. The ultimate
embarrassment for the Monopoly will be if they are unable to respond to the
comments and fix all the shortcomings in their pathetic apology for a standard
in the time available. Since their vote-stuffing and bully-boy tactics have had
a fair bit of public exposure, the same may well happen to the technical folly
of their standard. They have been a laughing-stock amongst serious software and
engineering professionals since DOS 4.0, if not before, and they are likely to
become a laughing-stock in the eyes of the general public now. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: webster on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 02:39 PM EDT |
..
1. A standard is something easy for all to implement. Compare measures like
feet, meters, kilograms etc. The Monopoly has concocted something that is
deliberately unusable by all but them. It is a lock-in, lock-out tool of
oppression.
2. If anyone at the Monopoly had any ethical sensitivity left, they would not
propose this standard, not promote it, not stack the committees, not threaten
their "partners," not bribe journalists. To call it a standard is a
Lie. They assume a Divine Right to maintain their Monopoly and crush all
others. They must feel moral about this in comparison to some of their
shenanigans of the past, to put it so very delicately. Promoting a false
standard isn't like stealing code, or sabotaging competitor's code. They have
been destroying other peoples' code and standards for years.
3. Will the World wake up? If it wakes up, will it do anything? It is like
the boy that says the Emperor has no clothes. Well the Emperor has given out
the same clothes, so everyone refuses to hear the boy. Do not trust the
Monopoly. Anything they want is bad. Even if it were a better standard, their
software were better, it is bad simply because it is theirs. They are proof of
the old adage that power corrupts. Clearly it has corrupted their moral vision.
Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely. They may yet have the world on Vista.
With their billions they can buy governments. PR has become a their
"Ministry of Truth." If it is Pro-Monopoly, it can not be a lie. Do
you believe it when you read "Office Depot recommends Monopoly Vista?"
What quality inspired that recommendation?
4. If MS-XML becomes a World Standard as is despite the numerous comments,
.....[back to work! Rant suspended..]
---
webster
© 2007 Monopoly Corporation. ALL rights reserved. Yours included.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 04:15 PM EDT |
I've been looking for a tally of all the votes that we know of so far, and I've
been coming up short.
Does anyone know who's voted, how, and how close OOXML is to getting the votes
it needs?[ Reply to This | # ]
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- Vote tally? - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 04:43 PM EDT
- Vote tally? - Authored by: nuthead on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 08:48 PM EDT
- Vote tally? - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 10:24 PM EDT
- Vote tally? - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 07:40 PM EDT
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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 06:10 PM EDT |
So MS has been offering inducements to third-parties for their votes on OOXML.
How close does this come to falling foul of anti-corruption legislation? Both in
the countries concerned, and also IIRC the USA has laws against paying bribes in
other countries.[ Reply to This | # ]
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- Does not matter. - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 09:34 PM EDT
- Does not matter. - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 10:21 PM EDT
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Authored by: bbaston on Saturday, September 01 2007 @ 06:20 PM EDT |
Great, especially the comments which will HAVE to be addressed because of the NO
vote. Brazil had some sizzlers too.
What is Microsoft thinking? Probably not
much (pun intended) because MS-XML [which they call OOXML] is not and was never
intended as a Standard. MS-XML is a hurriedly-assembled Office 2007 summary
format presented to assure Government-specification lock-in for Office 2007 -
which is obvious from worldwide comments from this process.
IMHO the ISO in
October will attempt to merge OOXML with ODF as a means for Microsoft to save
face. Even if that attempt is dropped as too messy and unnecessary, Microsoft
will then say, "See, we added ODF to all our Microsoft products. What's everyone
so upset about?"
The EU and others will hopefully charge Microsoft with
additional anticompetitive behavior just on this ISO manipulation alone - but MS
won't even see that as significant. Ethics to the unethical are beside the
point.
As an American, my embarrassment at the US Yes vote for an obviously
and flagrantly flawed "standard" is enhanced because that change was pushed
through by Homeland Security pulling rank on the other US Government
participants, who changed from NO to Yes (DoD and others) and let it squeak
by. --- IMBW, IANAL2, IMHO, IAVO
imaybewrong, iamnotalawyertoo, inmyhumbleopinion, iamveryold [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Bart van Deenen on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 10:57 AM EDT |
DK-32:
The introduction of two different date base system, and
suggestion to
mis-handled date calculation to preserve error calculation from
earlier
version of Microsoft Excel seem the worst possible choice for
retention of
backward compatibility.
It serve no purpose to duplicate
the errors of the past by encapsulating them
into a new specification, and this
way miss the opportunity to set things
right.
Instead of duplicating the
mistake and bring it forward, one should instead
find a smarter way to do it
the correct way, instead of encourage
application
developers to continue
making the same mistake
The obsession to provide backwards
compatibility by continuously adopt
"deprecated" specification like VML and
re-implement the mistake of the past
doesn't provide a viable methodology for
introducing a new specification.
It also impose unnecessary additional
work both for implementation and
maintenance of the specification, since it
enforce adoption of cumbersome
construct to work around the old
mistakes.
Wow! It seems us Penguin huggers aren't the only
one that can see quality (or
lack thereof) in specifications.
Thank you
Denmark :-)
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: tiger99 on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 04:23 PM EDT |
We don't use that particular word here. No doubt PJ will have something to say
when she sees it, or may even remove your post.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 02 2007 @ 05:59 PM EDT |
Colored Google Map with OOXML Voting
status here [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: T.H. on Monday, September 03 2007 @ 08:36 AM EDT |
In the press release there is a link to more
information about the decision making process and how the "No with comments"
vote was determined. This page lists
the members of the
committee:
Participants: CBS, Microsoft [emphasis added],
Netcompany, Conzern, Thydata, ITEK, IBM, KMD, IT og telestyrelsen, NNIT,
Tectura, PKF Consulting, Avanade, Sirius IT, TOPNORDIC, Dansk IT, Traen
Informationssystemer, OSL, Vision People, Munk IT, Knowledge Cube, Proactive,
Ementor, Liga, Fujitsu, Oracle, Sun Microsystems, DKUUG, Århus Kommunes 5.
magistrat (Børn og Unge), Danmarks Tekniske Universitet, CIBER Danmark A/S,
Region Midtjylland, Hewlett-Packard
In the press release you can
read:
Danmarks stemme
Dansk Standard har baseret
Danmarks stemme på en konsensusvurdering blandt de deltagende parter samt på
udvalgets enige indstilling.
Danmark vil i den videre proces arbejde for en
godkendelse af ISO/IEC DIS 29500 OOXML, forudsat at de punkter, som udvalget har
indstillet,
bliver adresseret. Med stemmen ”Nej med kommentarer” sikrer Dansk
Standard det bedste udgangspunkt for varetagelse af de danske ønsker til
ændringer af standarden.
Which translates
to:
Denmark's vote
Danish Standard has based
Denmark's vote on an evaluation of consensus amongst the participating parties
and the unanimous recommendation of the committee [emphasis
added].
Denmark will in the ongoing process work for an approval of ISO/IEC
DIS 29500 OOXML, provided that the points recommended by the committee are
addressed.
With the "No with comments" vote, Danish Standard ensures the best
starting position for taking care of the danish wishes for changes of the
standard.
So in essence, Microsoft have just voted against
their own proposed standard. Go figure.. Maybe their representative didn't want
to lose face by being the only one going against the recommendation in this
exclusive gathering of Danish IT professionals?? Or whatever.
In any case an
embarrassing moment for MS.
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 03 2007 @ 12:36 PM EDT |
There are several treaty terms which make the antitrust legislation in the
EU. The most relevant EU antitrust rules seem to be article 82 of original EU treaty. This
says:
Article 82
Any abuse by one or more
undertakings of a dominant position within the common market or in a substantial
part of it shall be prohibited as incompatible with the common market in so far
as it may affect trade between Member States.
Such abuse may, in
particular, consist in:
(a) directly or indirectly imposing unfair
purchase or selling prices or other unfair trading conditions;
(b)
limiting production, markets or technical development to the prejudice of
consumers;
(c) applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions
with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive
disadvantage;
(d) making the conclusion of contracts subject to
acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their
nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of
such contracts.
As I read this, probably MS aren't yet
breaking this, although they are sailing very close to the wind. OOXML is not
yet affecting trade between member states. They aren't limiting technical
developments to the detriment of consumers: they are simply promoting a
substandard over an existing standard. If however, they were to object to
improvements in the standard, then they might be using their monopoly position
to the detriment of consumers.
It's possible that the way that the
decision was reached in Poland will be exposed as a breach of antitrust rules
because this could be read as interference which limits technocal
development. I'm wondering whether we'll get an explanation of the change of
comitteee venue.
I also wonder whether article 81, which covers catels could apply. [ Reply to This | # ]
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- Ask the EU - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 03 2007 @ 12:45 PM EDT
- Ask the EU - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 03 2007 @ 12:48 PM EDT
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