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DIN e.V. Explains its vote on OOXML |
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Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 11:53 PM EDT
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DIN e.V., the German standards institute, has now posted the results of the meeting August 21 by the technical committee. It's a "yes" (or "yes, comments") decision on Microsoft's submission of OOXML as a proposed standard. It's in German, naturally. A volunteer, RA Schinagl, who is a lawyer in Germany, has provided an English translation, so we can have a more accurate picture of what the vote was, even if we can't read German. Update: There is now the DIN statement in English.
Here is the translation:
*******************************
Germany will support the acceptance of the Office Open XML as an
ISO-standard – but with quite a few suggestions for improvement.
(2007-08-22)
The process of the international standardization provides that at a national
level the formation of opinion about standards projects shall happen in so-called mirror boards. Thus it happens in the case of the fast track
procedure for the implementation of the ECMA-376 "Office Open XML“ standard
as ISO-standard, ISO/IEC 29500 which was initiated by the ECMA.
All 103 full members of the International Organization for Standardization
(ISO) may ballot by 2 September 2007 about this – one vote per country.
The ECMA-376 standard published in December 2006 documents on 6000 pages the
XML-format for office application which was originally developed by
Microsoft.
It is the second of such formats that has been proposed at an international
level.
The "Open Document Format“, the OASIS-consortium (Organization for the
Advancement of Structured Information Standards) looks after was already
published as ISO/IEC 26300 "IT –Open Document Format for Office Applications
(OpenDocument)“.
The board in charge of the standards committee IT and applications (NIA) at
the DIN e.V. has held a meeting on 21 august 2007 in Berlin after months of
intensive preparatory work on the topic of the Office Open XML.
Representatives of software suppliers, application developers, scientific
institutes, ministries and administrations attended.
Following an extensive and constructive discussion of the statements
received the board decided to accept the draft of the ISO/IEC 29500 with
comments.
Regarding the large extent of the document the German comments on the
technical improvement of the ECMA-standard sum up to several dozens of
pages. Those proposals for the technical improvements will be delivered to
the ISO.
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Authored by: Waterman on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 11:57 PM EDT |
If needed. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Waterman on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:00 AM EDT |
go here. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Waterman on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:03 AM EDT |
And don't forget to make links clickable. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Waterman on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:13 AM EDT |
Yes with comments means that MS has been at work. There are just too many things
wrong with this proposed "standard" that it should never have seen the
light of day.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: bbaston on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:14 AM EDT |
"you've been had"?
I wonder what history will say about this "lobbying
effort" and those who fell in line? --- IMBW, IANAL2, IMHO, IAVO
imaybewrong, iamnotalawyertoo, inmyhumbleopinion, iamveryold [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Fieldman on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:37 AM EDT |
The Wikipedia page on OOXML has been taken over by MS-sympathisers.
It would
be good to have a more balanced view, especially since that page is the first
result when searching for OOXML. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: kawabago on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:44 AM EDT |
If OOXML is accepted by ISO then every company will rush to have their product
become an international standard. That will make standards completely
meaningless and there will no longer be a need for the ISO.
Bye Bye ISO, it was nice while it lasted!
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: gdt on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 01:54 AM EDT |
Most of us are wondering why -- since there were so many substantive comments
-- Germany's vote would be "approve".
"Approve" indicates that Germany is
satisfied with the draft international standard as it it, and promotes its
immediate publication.
The reasonable alternative would be "disapprove,
with comments" which would lead to a Ballot Resolution Meeting where comments
would necessarily be addressed. If all comments were satisfactorily addressed
Germany could then alter its vote to "approve".
As stated in the
Australia National Body forum an "approve with comments" vote carries so little
weight to pay any attention to the comments that it is equivalent to "approve,
with a Christmas card".
No where does the statement explain the
reasoning that lead to this ineffective choice -- an approval with substantive
comments. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Aladdin Sane on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 02:21 AM EDT |
Meeting notes strike me as more useful to understanding the outcome than the
press release after the fact.
The reports here on Groklaw from other
countries' meetings have been most interesting.
Do we even know who was at
the meeting, and what company/interest they represented? --- Free minds,
Free software [ Reply to This | # ]
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- Especially - Authored by: Aladdin Sane on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 04:31 AM EDT
- Especially - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 09:02 AM EDT
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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 02:24 AM EDT |
By unseen, but presumably unsavory, methods, Microsoft wins another approval
vote.
I really have no idea whether it's even possible for the standards
community to recover from this further blow, but I have no difficulty in
predicting the outcome with 99.9% certainty: Microsoft is going to win. The
proprietary MS Office data format is going to become an ISO standard.
The
reason I'm so sure of this is that every Microsoft maneuver takes us by
surprise. It's not just that we're not coordinated, facing a well-organized
opponent. It's that we never seem to know what's going on until after it's
happened.
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: mjr on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 03:56 AM EDT |
Bummer :I
Incidentally, it appears that Finland will be abstaining; the issue split both
the industry participants and the different branches of government who were at
the meeting to determine Finland's position.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Jimbob0i0 on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 04:23 AM EDT |
That's funny I was *sure* the ISO guidelines on voting state that if there are
any comments that require addressing a no with comments is the only vote that is
valid...
Yes with comments pushing the draft forward as is since a yes means there is no
need to act on any comments given?[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: schestowitz on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 05:06 AM EDT |
Sorry about linking to the Evil Domain, but this is worth sharing:
,----[ Quote ]
| Bill Gates has reportedly been making phone calls to the Secretary of Defense
| and the Secretary of Commerce to push the American National Standards
| Institute to ignore the votes of its advisory committees and vote yes on
| ISO standardizing Microsoft's Open Office XML (OOXML) format, the one in
| competition with the OpenDocument Format (ODF) pushed by IBM and Sun.
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| Gates reportedly picked up the phone when the last INCITS ballot failed by
| one vote to support Microsoft.
`----
URL:
http://xml.sys-con.com/read/419573_p.htm">http://xml.sys-con.com/read/41
9573_p.htm
We already know from Andy that similar tricks might be pulled in China. Was
Germany a victim too? Maybe?
---
Roy S. Schestowitz, Ph.D. Candidate in Medical Biophysics
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 07:05 AM EDT |
I explained somewhere else the warmap, so again:
a) YES vote == current
ECMA standard gets relabeled as an
ISO standard, with all the bugs
b) YES
mit comments == same as a), and some suggestions
for later improvements
c)
conditional disapproval == current ECMA standard has a
change to get improved
and technical comments will get
fixed. Microsoft will need to offer more. A
negotiation
process get opened.
d) rejection of the standard == same as c)
or no ISO
approval, but ECMA standard is here to stay
No rational
player, even when you are a partner of
Microsoft or really want OOXML's ISO
approval can support
options a) and b). No player takes any risks except
Microsoft. We know
that the current ECMA standard is broken, and full of
errors. So even when you want OOXML you should disapprove
as a matter of
negotiation strategy.
The only explanaition for a YES vote (which is
just not
rational) is either an “idealistic” agenda to
support
Microsoft’s monopoly or the existance of other means
that
compensate
your self-interest.
A Yes or a “Yes with Comments” (which is
formally
non-existing) is a *very* bad business proposal.
And why does
Germany grant unconditional support for
Microsoft? Sorry, I don't get it. Maybe
its because the
Committee is stuffed by Microsoft?
Clouds:
- ECMA
says they will consider all comments.
--> Nice, but an essential condition
is that enough
nations disapprove the current premature fast-track
proposal
for an ISO standard.
- go "Yes with comments"
--> means: ECMA should
become an ISO standard with no
changes and no additional offers. That is you
grant
Microsoft an ISO approval for their broken standard and
receive nothing
in return.
Simple Game theory:
1. ECMA fasttrack proposal
adopted:
MS: proprietary ECMA standard becomes ISO standard, on
equal
ground with ODF.
You: ISO Specification = ECMA specification, ISO Patent
conditions = ECMA patent conditions.
2. ECMA fastrack proposal fails,
no ISO adoption
MS: ECMA standard but no ISO standard
You: ECMA
specification, Ecma patent conditions
As you can see scenario 2 provides
absolutely no advantage
for you over scenario 1. So disapproval ensures that
ECMA/Microsoft will be forced to offer you more to get its
ISO
approval:
- more specification
- close the specification bugs
-
make other committments
- improve patent uncertainties.
[ Reply to This | # ]
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- Some errors - Authored by: gdt on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 09:01 AM EDT
- Some errors - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:37 PM EDT
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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:05 PM EDT |
I used to have respect for DIN standards. Now I do not.
If this has been pushed through like this and they have rolled over and played
pawn to Microsoft I cannot trust any DIN standard. I will always have to ask
'where is the catch and what is wrong?'. That totally defeats the point of a
standard. How can anyone use a DIN standard, from now on, without the risk of
walking into a patent trap?
Tufty
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: hamstring on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:17 PM EDT |
Nothing more needs to be said...
---
# echo "Mjdsptpgu Svdlt" | tr [b-z] [a-y]
# IANAL and do not like Monopoly[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Eric Damron on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:34 PM EDT |
Did they even read the 6,000 page purposed standard? Do they even know what
they are approving?
I think not.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 04:28 PM EDT |
It's that simple. I wonder just how much money it cost
Microsoft to turn a formerly sensible government into its
puppet.[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 04:35 PM EDT |
So with 103 votes at stake, how many yes or yes with comments have shown up so
far?
I don't think the United States has voted yes yet, based on
this
article:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post
/20070811-microsoft-one-vote-short-of-fast-track-ooxml-iso-standardization.html<
/a>
"Executive board members of the International Committee for
Information Technology Standards (INCITS), the organization that represents the
United States in ISO standardization deliberations, recently held an internal
poll..."
"... With eight votes in favor, seven against, and one
abstention, the group was one vote short of the nine votes required for
approving OOXML ISO standardization. This does not mean that OOXML is dead in
the water, however."
[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 04:49 PM EDT |
I suggest you down load the .pdf file from this web site, and ask your boss, how
he or she can risk their business on software with so many well documented bugs,
when a better option is available.
http://www.asianlinux.org/?q=o
df-vs-ooxml[ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 10:29 PM EDT |
According to heise online this is the detailed
list of all the board members the head of the DIN-board Mr. Schuermann has
invited exclusively to participate in the DIN- decision:
"In den
Arbeitskreis nahm Schürmann von Unternehmensseite Vertreter von Microsoft, IBM
und Sun Microsystems, dem Microsoft-Lizenzhaus PC-Ware, von OpenLimit, die für
die Redmonder Signaturlösungen entwickeln, und CIT sowie vom EDV-Haus Dialogika
auf, das für Microsoft an einem "Open-XML-Translator" arbeitet. Aus dem
Behördenumfeld und dem Sektor E-Government durften das frühzeitig Windows Vista
testende niedersächsische Justizministerium, der kommunale norddeutsche
Dienstleister Dataport, die Kommanditgesellschaft Bremen Online Services, die
Hamburger Finanzbehörde, das Auswärtige Amt sowie das Bundesinnenministerium
Abgesandte schicken. Mit dabei ist auch der Deutsche Städte- und Gemeindebund
(DStGB), der 2002 einen Rahmenvertrag über den Erwerb von Softwareprodukten mit
Microsoft abgeschlossen hat."
Even if you don't understand the wording,
the heise report offers a link to each of the participants . There is not one
German big player involved and most of the participating administrative
departments are well known to prefer and support Microsoft products. Sounds
fishy to me.
Here you can find
an English translation of the initial heise report dated yesterday. [ Reply to This | # ]
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Authored by: ftcsm on Friday, August 24 2007 @ 07:55 AM EDT |
We Brazilians are too critical of our own country cause it's filled with easiy
bribed politicians, very high taxes for very little return and a lot more. But
wait, almost every country is like taht now. Ok, politics and rants later, we
have more important news to you.
From time to time we can be proud of something from our lands. Now it's time to
rejoice with ABNT, our national standars body. They decided a vote for NO With
Comments following a very technical agenda to decide it. There are 63 comments
that must be addressed before considering the submission of the proposed
standard. Something like making it a standard before trying :)
So, alog with USA, count Brazil on the NO list.
English: http://avi.alkalay.net/2007/08/ooxml-brazil-says-no.html
Portuguese:
http://computerworld.uol.com.br/mercado/2007/08/23/idgnoticia.2007-08-23.5442611
667/ and
http://samadeu.blogspot.com/2007/08/abnt-rejeita-padro-open-xml-brasil.html
---
------
Faith moves mountains but I still prefer dynamite[ Reply to This | # ]
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