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The Federal Rules of Evidence - An Overview
Sunday, September 03 2006 @ 06:47 PM EDT

A reader asked if I'd explain what is and isn't allowed in the way of evidence. I told him lawyers write entire books on that topic, and all I could do is just scratch the surface by pointing him to sources to provide an overview. But he wanted me to do that, so he could follow along more meaningfully as the SCO cases go forward. I couldn't resist his request, so here goes, an explanation of the Federal Rules of Evidence, an overview.

Here's a couple of excellent references for you, if you'd like to dig deeper than I will be:

  • Federal Rulemaking, the federal judiciary's website on the federal rules of practice, procedure, and evidence. There you'll find a wealth of information, including proposed changes to the rules of evidence, at the bottom of that page.

  • And, as always, Harvard has a very thorough collection of materials on various shadings of the topic, including cases that bear on the subject, problems selected to get law students to think about the application of the rules to specific fact situations, and articles and treatises on the subject.
You just can't go wrong with Harvard. And they link to the wonderful Legal Information Institute of Cornell Law School, as I will throughout, for the Federal Rules of Evidence themselves.

Just to give you an idea of how complicated it can be, you might want to read this snip from "The Probable and the Provable," by L. J. Cohen. It begins like this:
THE DIFFICULTY ABOUT NEGATION

Consider, for example, a case in which it is common ground that 499 people paid for admission to a rodeo, and that 1,000 are counted on the seats, of whom A is one. Suppose no tickets were issued and there can be no testimony as to whether A paid for admission or climbed over the fence. So by any plausible criterion of mathematical probability there is a .501 probability, on the admitted facts, that he did not pay. The mathematicist theory would apparently imply that in such circumstances the rodeo organizers are entitled to judgement against A for the admission-money, since the balance of probability (and also the difference between prior and posterior probabilities) would lie in their favour. But it seems manifestly unjust that A should lose his case when there is an agreed mathematical probability of as high as .499 that he in fact paid for admission.

Indeed, if the organizers were really entitled to judgement against A, they would presumably be equally entitled to judgement against each person in the same situation as A. So they might conceivably be entitled to recover 1,000 admission-moneys, when it was admitted that 499 had actually been paid. The absurd injustice of this suffices to show that there is something wrong somewhere. But where?...

My job, though, is to go in the opposite direction, to simplify, so that those of us who are not lawyers or law students or professors can at least get the big picture, and then any who wish to can go off and dig deeper to their heart's content, which is how so many of you have ended up going to law school after reading Groklaw.

To start to grasp the big picture by taking our first baby steps, you need to know that in the US, every state has its own laws. If a lawyer moves from Minnesota to California, he has to not only get permission to practice in the new state, he has to study so he knows how. I remember an interview with an attorney, whose name I've forgotten, who told about finding himself in court on his first case in a new state. He hadn't had time to really get conversant with the new state's laws, so he was bungling the job. What do you even ask a witness, if you don't know what you need to prove to meet the law's requirements? The judge first tried to send him hints on what he needed to ask and finally lectured him, explaining to him in front of everyone what the elements were he needed to prove in the case under that state's law and telling him to go home and study before he appeared in his courtroom again. It was humiliating, I'm sure, and no doubt he cracked the books after that.

It's the same for paralegals too, by the way, which his why they hate to move out-of-state, because they know they'll have to study everything all over again and then try not to get confused. Laws inside a state change all the time too, of course, and you have to keep up with all the various courts' rules, which change too, and the judge's preferences -- and on the state level, the judges change all the time, too -- so anyone who becomes a lawyer or any kind of legal support staff accepts a lifetime of studying. Of course, some of us think there's not much better in life than to learn new things, so that's the type of person who should gravitate to the legal world. If you are a programmer, you can relate, because you are always having to learn new languages and develop new skills, aren't you?

In contrast, though, if you're an engineer, you can go anywhere, in any state, and Ruby doesn't change, or C++, or Visual Basic or Perl. What you've learned still works, assuming it's still in demand. A doctor, if he moves, has to get accredited in the new place, and while in some cases that involves study and always involves a lot of paperwork, at least the human body stays the same, wherever he goes. The law doesn't.

But there is one thing that lawyers probably won't have to spend a lot of time on if they move, and that's the rules of evidence. That's because they're very much the same no matter where you go, and what they are all like are the Federal Rules of Evidence. Why would that be true?

I think it's because the federal rules have been worked out over time, are meant to be applicable in all the states when you are in the federal court system, and they are designed to be fair. Humans often agree on the big picture when it comes to fairness, and in this case, they seem to, despite the complexity of the rules. In fact, some states just use the federal rules and call them their own, as the introduction to Cornell University's Federal Rules of Evidence section points out:

These rules govern the introduction of evidence in proceedings, both civil and criminal, in Federal courts. While they do not apply to suits in state courts, the rules of many states have been closely modeled on these provisions.

That's the overview, and you are welcome to read all the rules, if you are the type that likes the long answer first and right away. You'll find the rules for experts there, and on depositions. You'll see that under each section, you'll find a link marked "Notes," which will explain a bit about that section and what its purpose is. The Notes are very helpful if legalese isn't your mother tongue.

If you read the section Article IX, Miscellaneous Rules, you'll find that the Federal Rules of Evidence apply pretty much everywhere, in all the district courts, the US courts of appeal, even in bankruptcy court, pretty much in all the federal courts except where there are different rules specifically set up, such as for proceedings before a grand jury or an extradition hearing or in criminal law in misdemeanor matters, bail hearings, things like that. You can read the list. Magistrate judges are bound by the same rules of evidence in civil cases, but not when handling misdemeanors and other petty criminal matters. Remember at one of the last hearings in SCO v. IBM when Magistrate Judge Brooke Wells mentioned that she couldn't do a hearing on a particular day because she was scheduled for the criminal part that week? That's the other thing magistrate judges do.

They list where the Federal Rules of Evidence apply very explicitly, so everyone knows the rules of the road at the beginning. So if you are sued in the District Court of Guam, you know what the evidentiary rules are. The whole idea of a fair justice system is that no one gets surprised or ambushed. You will note, if you read the list, that there is an exception regarding admissibility, and that's for Rule 104, Preliminary Questions:

Rule 104. Preliminary Questions

(a) Questions of admissibility generally.

Preliminary questions concerning the qualification of a person to be a witness, the existence of a privilege, or the admissibility of evidence shall be determined by the court, subject to the provisions of subdivision (b). In making its determination it is not bound by the rules of evidence except those with respect to privileges.

(b) Relevancy conditioned on fact.

When the relevancy of evidence depends upon the fulfillment of a condition of fact, the court shall admit it upon, or subject to, the introduction of evidence sufficient to support a finding of the fulfillment of the condition.

(c) Hearing of jury.

Hearings on the admissibility of confessions shall in all cases be conducted out of the hearing of the jury. Hearings on other preliminary matters shall be so conducted when the interests of justice require, or when an accused is a witness and so requests.

(d) Testimony by accused.

The accused does not, by testifying upon a preliminary matter, become subject to cross-examination as to other issues in the case.

(e) Weight and credibility.

This rule does not limit the right of a party to introduce before the jury evidence relevant to weight or credibility.

This makes sense, if you think about it, because you want the judge to be free to look at everything pertinent when trying to decide if a witness qualifies or whether there is a privilege properly asserted. Privilege is like attorney-client privilege, or journalistic privilege, or doctor-patient. The point is to keep the jury from hearing things it shouldn't -- the jury only hears what the judge decides it can hear, after that evaluation -- so the judge hears a lot more than the jury does. That's fair because the judge knows the law very well, where the jury doesn't. That's also why the judge can read whatever he wishes, and juries are sometimes told not to read about the case they are working on. They might be influenced by media FUD, where a judge isn't going to be. So, the jury hears only what the judge rules it can hear. And did you notice that part about privilege? While the judge is not bound by the rules of evidence in determining whether a privilege exists, once that determination is reached, privilege, such as the attorney-client privilege, is respected, and the rule on that is totally clear, Rule 1101(c), Rule of Privilege:

The rule with respect to privileges applies at all stages of all actions, cases, and proceedings.

That's the rule that SCO just relearned.

Now, we know each other pretty well by now. You know my little quirks and flaws, and I know you too, and I'm pretty sure that many of you are asking the following questions: Why does it have to be so complicated? Why even have rules of evidence? Why can't a witness just sit down in the witness chair and simply tell what he knows? Because what a witness actually knows first-hand and what he thinks he knows because he heard something from somebody might not be identical. The law is interested in hearing the former, but not the latter, as a rule. And because, sad to say, sometimes witnesses lie. The whole point is to try to keep proceedings fair despite all that, as Rule 102 states:

Rule 102. Purpose and Construction

These rules shall be construed to secure fairness in administration, elimination of unjustifiable expense and delay, and promotion of growth and development of the law of evidence to the end that the truth may be ascertained and proceedings justly determined.

Did you notice how the law itself recognizes that the law must grow and develop? But the underlying principles have traditionally stayed the same. It's just how to apply the principles fairly that can be fine-tuned. In an article on privileges, Commentary: Privileges in General, again linked to on the Harvard page, the authors explain it this way:

In Chapter II we explored the fundamental rule of evidence that all relevant evidence is admissible and all irrelevant evidence is inadmissible. The premise on which this primary rule is based is that accurate fact-finding in an adversary system of justice is promoted when the factfinder has all the information that bears on the issues in dispute. As we have seen, there are many exceptions to the primary rule. But virtually all the exceptions we have examined to this point have been justified on the grounds that the excluded evidence is likely to undermine the fact-finding process because of the unreliability or prejudicial nature of the evidence or its capacity to mislead or confuse the factfinder.

Now, one unique aspect of the US legal system, as it was originally set up, was that it was designed by folks who came to this country after having been abused legally elsewhere. Shakespeare had relatives killed for being in the wrong group. Some were religiously oppressed or suffered terribly after falling into debt, and when they set up the new US legal system, it was all designed to protect the little guy, the unpopular, the powerless, the underdog, because that is what they had been in the countries they came from.

The plain fact is that you will write a law differently when you've been victimized than if you've lived always as a privileged member of the power elite. The latter tend to write laws so as to punish severely those that don't do what they're told, with an emphasis on strict enforcement at all costs. The former write laws with the thought in their minds, "What if this law were applied to me or my relatives?" It tends to result in more compassionate, careful laws. That was the original idea, to protect the least popular man, the religion everyone hated, to protect against mob justice running wild against those not in power, those without a friend in the world.

When you read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, you can see that point of view throughout. It came from having been written by those who had been in the least popular group or were a member of an outlawed religion. Don't forget, at one time in Europe you could be tortured and even burned to death for translating the Bible or just for not believing the current dominant religion's teachings. So when people came to what became the United States, they had some definite ideas on what would work better than that.

And you see that in the Federal Rules of Evidence too. You can't be convicted on hearsay evidence, for example. Now the rules regarding hearsay are complicated, but the overview is that a liar or a bunch of gossips shouldn't be allowed to destroy your life. Someone has to have seen you do the unlawful thing and be willing to testify to it in court, and be subject to cross examination as to the truthfulness and accuracy of the testimony. (Hearsay is not admissable, with some exceptions, and here's what isn't hearsay.) He can't come in to court and tell the court that his brother saw it. The brother himself has to show up, and if he can't make it to court or won't testify, and there's no other evidence on that point so the defendant goes free as a result, the US legal system will let that happen, because it is a fundamental of this system, or originally was, that it's better for a guilty person to walk free than for an innocent man to be wrongly punished.

It's beautiful, if you think about it, isn't it? It's a system designed to protect the wrongly accused and the underdog. Anyway, I think it's beautiful, and it's one thing that drew me to the law, the essential fairness of the system as it was designed, that the designers of the system thought it really mattered to protect everyone's rights. So when it comes to evidence, the judge has the job of applying the rules so as to keep the jury from hearing inadmissable evidence, as Rule 103(c) says:

In jury cases, proceedings shall be conducted, to the extent practicable, so as to prevent inadmissible evidence from being suggested to the jury by any means, such as making statements or offers of proof or asking questions in the hearing of the jury.

In other words, there is even a rule about trying to slip in evidence by a back door. Other than that, the court will let all relevant evidence in. What does "relevant" mean here? Rules 401-403 explain:

Rule 401. Definition of "Relevant Evidence"

"Relevant evidence" means evidence having any tendency to make the existence of any fact that is of consequence to the determination of the action more probable or less probable than it would be without the evidence.

Notes

Rule 402. Relevant Evidence Generally Admissible; Irrelevant Evidence Inadmissible

All relevant evidence is admissible, except as otherwise provided by the Constitution of the United States, by Act of Congress, by these rules, or by other rules prescribed by the Supreme Court pursuant to statutory authority. Evidence which is not relevant is not admissible.

Notes

Rule 403. Exclusion of Relevant Evidence on Grounds of Prejudice, Confusion, or Waste of Time

Although relevant, evidence may be excluded if its probative value is substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice, confusion of the issues, or misleading the jury, or by considerations of undue delay, waste of time, or needless presentation of cumulative evidence.

Notes

Here's one final rule, and it is one you will probably like, Rule 301:

Rule 301. Presumptions in General Civil Actions and Proceedings

In all civil actions and proceedings not otherwise provided for by Act of Congress or by these rules, a presumption imposes on the party against whom it is directed the burden of going forward with evidence to rebut or meet the presumption, but does not shift to such party the burden of proof in the sense of the risk of nonpersuasion, which remains throughout the trial upon the party on whom it was originally cast.

That's legalese for: SCO has to prove its claims (and of course the same goes for IBM or Novell's counterclaims -- they have to prove those), and that's true at trial, not just with the judge in preliminary motions. That burden to prove its claims lies squarely on SCO's shoulders, wriggle though it may.

So there you go, an overview. We can talk about the specifics later, but at least you have enough to help you to understand why there are rules of evidence and what they are designed to accomplish.


  


The Federal Rules of Evidence - An Overview | 198 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Corrections Here Please
Authored by: fettler on Sunday, September 03 2006 @ 07:00 PM EDT
DYB DYB DYB

[ Reply to This | # ]

Off Topic Here
Authored by: josmith42 on Sunday, September 03 2006 @ 07:24 PM EDT
To make a link clickable, change Post Mode to "HTML Formatted" and do
this <a href="http://www.example.com">example</a>.

---
This comment was typed using the Dvorak keyboard layout. :-)

[ Reply to This | # ]

The Federal Rules of Evidence - An Overview
Authored by: The Cornishman on Sunday, September 03 2006 @ 07:40 PM EDT
Thank you, that's very useful reading, particularly for us, the sorely oppressed
of the Old Country :)

To what extent are the Federal Rules open to interpretation and change by
judges? Are they a sort of judicially-made law, or are they only changed by the
legislature (Act of Congress, I guess)? I only ask because so much of the SCO v
IBM case seems to turn on what has to be produced, by whom, and with what
specificity, to prove claims.

I suspect that most jury members would think, when faced with the opening
arguments in this case, "sheesh, I can get my head around this. We've only
got to see the cat that IBM let out of the bag". As those of us who have
been following it know (and consequently are disqualified from ever being on
that jury, I suspect!), both the bag and the cat are singularly ill-defined, and
the evidence is really hard to pin down. I don't envy that jury, if it ever
gets that far.

---
(c) assigned to PJ

[ Reply to This | # ]

Rule 403 ...
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 03 2006 @ 08:02 PM EDT
Rule 403. Exclusion of Relevant Evidence on Grounds of Prejudice, Confusion, or
Waste of Time

Oppopsie ... evidence can be excluded if the whole thng is a waste of time? Coo.
There went SCO's case then ;)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Probability is a bear (which can bite)
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 03 2006 @ 08:12 PM EDT
My favorite stats book is on my desk at work and not here by my easy chair. It
was written early (circa 1925ish) in the twentieth century before we had sent
rockets to Mars. The author points out that any use of statistics has to be
done wisely to avoid coming to ridiculous conclusions. He gives an example
similar to the following:

We have no way of knowing if there are cows on Mars so we ascribe a 50%
probability to their existence. Similarly, for horses, similarly for pigs,
similarly for chickens, similarly for ducks etc. etc. We have a formula that
gives the chances, given a number of possible events (and their probabilities)
that one or more of them will occur. If we apply that formula to the existence
of barnyard animals on Mars, it is a virtual certainty that at least one
barnyard animal exists on Mars. Hmm.

L. J. Cohen scratches the surface of the trouble you can get into with
statistics and probabilities. The judge he quotes actually seems to sum up the
problem more clearly in my mind at least. {Lummus, J., in ``Sargent v.
Massachusetts Accident Co.,'' 307 Mass. 246, 29 N.E.2d 825, 827 (1940)} The
statistics of a case may be used to judge the probability of the truth of
testimony, statistics should not stand in for the facts of that testimony.

[ Reply to This | # ]

A juror's perspective
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 03 2006 @ 08:17 PM EDT
I am aware that jurors are limited in some jurisdictions from discussing elements of a case. This includes not discussing the private deliberations of the jury room etc. However I would like to present a general perspective, with no intentionally identifying information.

It was for a case related to life threatening assault. The jury consisted of those with life experience and a wide range of ages.

Although mention is made of not uneccesarily delaying cases, unfortunately one of the lawyers became ill on the morning of the trial, so we waited for the next day, and a different member of that team appeared for the remainder of the case.

The trial was basically nothing much like what you see on TV. No surprises, no "hero" moments, no SVU theme music. Just hard seats with barely enough room to fit one's knees.

When a matter of law came up, we were excused from the courtroom. There were some theatrics from the defence lawyer, who acted like a child at one point, ripping the document back out of the hand of one of the witnesses when their response did not go where the lawyer had been trying to lead them.

Lesson 1 to lawyers. Don't put the jury offside. It's not professional. Badgering witnesses is not good either. Although the witness had been less than a saint in the relationship with the defendant, the actions of the defendant's lawyer did not undermine the witnesess' testimony in the view of my fellow jurors.

Occasionally, the cross examination of the witness became so convoluted that it was unclear what the responses related to, and the witness floundered with an answer. The defendant's lawyer demanded the judge direct the witness answer the question. However, the judge pointed out that the questioning had become too complicated, and asked the defendant's lawyer to rephrase the question.

A good thing too, as we were going to ask for that.

The jury was chaperoned at all times and reminded not to read about the case in the media or make independent investigations. Although we were free to get lunch outside the courtroom, it was difficult maintaining non-interaction with members of the defendant's family or legal team. You basically have to pretend they aren't there and avoid them on the street etc.

On the final day of the case we were kept in the courthouse and lunch was provided in a private dining room. Apparently some of the judges don't let the juries out for meals, and they are all provided in the dining room, but this is not unusual.

We were given all the evidence to take into the jury room for our final deliberations. One of the questions we were asked by counsel to consider was the probability of how the weapon came to be in the place it was used. This was never clear, but was part of deciding intent.

In summary, we had no TV surprise moments. In fact, we were told that the case would not be like SVU, CSI etc. The deliberations were straightforward, yet it was not a clear case of good versus evil. Human emotions had been part of the attack and the defendant had ruined an otherwise sensible life of personal improvement.

When the jury returned its verdict of guilty on a lesser charge, the defendant tearfully thanked us, which was a very hard thing to witness. It was just a sad case of a momentary lapse of reason and we had held that person's future in our hands.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Slaves
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 01:12 AM EDT
I guess it is ok to get romantic about the US legal system; but it shouldn't be
forgotten that it was legal to have slaves at one point, and that those slaves
were not exactly protected.

Of course, nowadays, there are all kinds of perversions and travesties: from
"three-strikes-out" laws, down to "sign this confession or we'll
take you to court" (and go to prison either way).

I find it more practical and useful to look at the American justice system to be
one designed for the rich. (I don't trust the examples that sometimes surface
about "underdogs" winning: such one-off stories maintain the illusion)


It is also easy to overlook that there are other legal systems. (A striking
example of which is the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission)

Cuum suique, as they say.

[ Reply to This | # ]

The difficulty about negation
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 04:33 AM EDT
The statistical argument presentented by L J Cohen is remeniscent of the
"scientific" arguments for discrimination based on race, sex etc.

Although a person may fall into a set which has mean and median measurments for
some parameter, how that person fairs in their individual score for that
parameter is not determined by the other members of the set. EG in general men
are physically stronger than women, but many women are stronger than many men.
What this means is that given a strength measurement that is not at the extremes
of the range, the "owner" of that measurment can not be reliably
assigned to either set.

[ Reply to This | # ]

So where did it all go wrong?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 05:54 AM EDT
...when they set up the new US legal system, it was all designed to protect the little guy, the unpopular, the powerless, the underdog

The copyright community, among many others, seems to have forgotten that part.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Not in love with the US legal system
Authored by: DaveJakeman on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 06:12 AM EDT
For three reasons:

1. IANAL;

2. I don't live in the US;

3. The US legal system has enough bloat to make Vista look Damn Small.

To the degree that you have laws in a country (or state), you have a lack of
freedom. That's not to say there should be no laws, but at the same time, there
can be too many. When there are too many, the likes of BS&F can perform
their antics because there are enough loopholes and complexities to accommodate
such acrobatics. Other abuse occurs too, like spilling coffee.

Dreamland PSJ: "So, you spilled a cup of coffee over yourself. That was
clumsy, wasn't it? Next."

I live in the UK, which is probably worse off than any single US state (but not
the US as a whole), because our laws have accumulated over a longer period and
have more recently been overwhumped by European law. We now have the worst of
both.

How often do you see a new law passed? Compare that to how often you see an old
law completely abolished. Legal systems tend to snowball and become a burden.
They become a tax on the population - a Lawyer tax if you like.

When America was new, it's legal system must have been great. There were few
laws. It only needed the essential ones. That was then. This is now.

Look at it now.

That is why we need Groklaw. You don't have to love the law to love Groklaw.

---
Unfortunately for us, common sense is not very common.
---
Should one hear an accusation, try it out on the accuser.

[ Reply to This | # ]

The Federal Rules of Evidence - An Overview
Authored by: urzumph on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 06:13 AM EDT
"In contrast, though, if you're an engineer, you can go anywhere, in any
state, and Ruby doesn't change, or C++, or Visual Basic or Perl."

C may be the same in every country, but it's definately not the same over every
OS, compiler and runtime libraries. Code that is not written with portability in
mind sometimes needs some very serious re-writing to move between platforms.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Guilty on Whim - Who needs evidence?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 10:07 AM EDT
Great news today.

In our first article one may be convicted of the crime of
being a sexual preditor with a life sentence of not
registration which does not sound to bad until one
realizes that for most people that would mean that they
will loose what ever job they have, loose their house and
be unable to live in many cases in the same country they
now live in, have people run from then, and be completely
unable to associate for the high crime of a man going
topless (not wearing a shirt) which does not have to be
proven only alleged to by someone who does not have to be
identified by the findings of justice of the peace in the
state of Ohio.

Toledo Blade

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060829/NEWS24/608290360/
-1/NEWS

Article published Tuesday, August 29, 2006

SEX OFFENDERS Plan gains to publicly identify accused Ohio
panel backs registry proposal BLADE COLUMBUS BUREAU
COLUMBUS - An Ohio legislative panel yesterday
rubber-stamped an unprecedented process that would allow
sex offenders to be publicly identified and tracked even
if they've never been charged with a crime

In our second article we find that not only can a plantift
in a lawsuit make unfound accuations based on the zero to
the fimiliest accuations but that the plaintift can then
demand that the accused is required to present the
evidence to the plantift where the plantift will ascertain
that the defendant did infact commit the crime that the
plaintift is declairing the defendant guilty of. One
wanders how guilty the defent would be founf if the
defendant purchased a new computer and submitted that HD
without even opening the box the computer came in.

ARS Technical
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060903-7657.html


RIAA doesn't like independent experts
9/3/2006 4:51:16 PM, by Eric Bangeman


For the past few years, the Recording Industry Association
of America has battled file sharing by threatening those
it suspects of illegally downloading music with lawsuits.
Many potential defendants opt for expensive settlements
with the RIAA, others decide to fight it out in court.
In the case of Sony BMG et al. v. Kim Arellanes, the RIAA
is using another tactic: strenuously arguing (PDF) against
the defendant's request that a neutral, third-party
perform a forensic search of the defendant's hard drive to
find evidence that she engaged in activities frowned upon
by the music industry. Claiming a right to rely on an
expert of their own choosing, Sony BMG says that Arellanes
"should be ordered to produce her computer hard drive for
inspection subject to Plaintiff's proposed protective
order."

With laws like this who needs evidence?


[ Reply to This | # ]

Continuing Education
Authored by: tyche on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 10:07 AM EDT
PJ,

I have come to the conclusion that you are a prime example of continuing
education in action. It occurs to me that you may have been trained primarily
in a particular State legal system rather than in the Federal system.

The reason I feel this way (and it is just a feeling) is based on the way you
presented information in the beginning as compared to the way you present it
now. In the beginning, many of your statements were prefixed with "I
think". Now, you have more of a tendency to declare chapter and verse with
some confidence. The change in confidence level has been slow and not
necessarily observable between one article and the next, but over time has
become more obvious. This indicates to me that, between then and now, you've
engaged in a massive amount of Re-learning and study concerning the Federal
Rules.

Of course it's also possible that you simply became more comfortable and
confident with the new role of journalist that you took on. Even there, though,
you've shown that you continue learning, examining, and testing new ways. And
thank goodness you have. You have managed to "drag us, kicking and
screaming" into a better understanding of the legal system than we have
ever had before. It is a pleasure to see someone develop as you have.

Thank you for being you,

Craig
Tyche

---
"The Truth shall Make Ye Fret"
"TRUTH", Terry Pratchett

[ Reply to This | # ]

"hearsay"
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 10:25 AM EDT
My favourite "hearsay" anecdote involves a child who was raped. The
child told her mother that she was raped by a man with white skin. A black man
was successfully convicted for the crime because the child was too young to give
evidence, and nobody else was allowed to tell the court what the child had said
because that would be "hearsay". Brilliant.
Personally I think it should be allowed to tell the court what another person
said when that person is unable to come to court themselves - if they are dead,
for example, which is a very important case because you don't really want to
reward people for murdering witnesses.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • "hearsay" - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 01:30 PM EDT
    • "hearsay" - Authored by: PJ on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 08:01 PM EDT
  • "hearsay" - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 04:41 PM EDT
    • "hearsay" - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 07:03 PM EDT
      • "hearsay" - Authored by: PJ on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 07:37 PM EDT
        • "hearsay" - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 11:40 PM EDT
          • "hearsay" - Authored by: PJ on Tuesday, September 05 2006 @ 01:16 AM EDT
          • "hearsay" - Authored by: tknarr on Tuesday, September 05 2006 @ 11:23 AM EDT
  • I disagree with your conclusion - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, September 05 2006 @ 03:07 AM EDT
This is historically wrong
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 12:21 PM EDT

Don't forget, at one time in Europe you could be tortured and even burned to death for translating the Bible or just for not believing the current dominant religion's teachings. So when people came to what became the United States, they had some definite ideas on what would work better than that. And you see that in the Federal Rules of Evidence too. You can't be convicted on hearsay evidence, for example.

This, and many of the other safeguards which you suggest were such wonderful improvements on the bad European legal systems, is in fact just inherited from English law. "The rules of hearsay began to form properly in the late seventeenth century" - W ikipedia

[ Reply to This | # ]

WIth exceptions ...
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 04 2006 @ 08:13 PM EDT

>>
That was the original idea, to protect the least popular man, the religion
everyone hated, to protect against mob justice running wild against those not in
power, those without a friend in the world.
>>

Of course, back then, this did not apply to the American Indians ... they got a
special sort fo justice ... of course, those days are long gone, now everyone is
equal before the law ...

Oh, except when those in power use the word "terrorism" .. at that
point all bets are off and pretty much anything goes.

Somehow, there always seems to eb a set of exceptions dreamed up for use agaisnt
those we consider "enemy" at any particualr point in time.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Jury nullification
Authored by: bradley13 on Tuesday, September 05 2006 @ 03:08 AM EDT
PJ,

It might be worth an article - not buried in a thread - on jury nullification.
As I understand it, the idea is that black-on-white laws will inevitably - in
particular cases - be unjust. And it is not only the right, but the duty of a
jury to see that justice is served, not simply to apply the law.

I have heard of numerous cases where, during jury selection, people who admit to
knowing about jury nullification are eliminated up front. Presumably by
prosecutors who are uncertain of the "justice" of their case.

In any event, it would be lovely to hear more about this from someone (i.e.,
PJ!) who is knowledgeable...

[ Reply to This | # ]

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