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Another Request to Pick Groklaw's Brain & an Invitation to OSDL's Conference on Software Tagging
Wednesday, August 30 2006 @ 05:20 PM EDT

Kees Cook of OSDL would like to pick your brain some more, on the topic of software tagging. He also would like to hear from you, if you host an OSS software repository, and he has an invitation for Groklaw folks. Here's the request, along with the invitation:
I'm helping to host the OSDL-sponsored Software Tagging Workshop September 14 - 15 and am working with a number of folks to research best practices for manual software tagging and recording stamps. We'd like to create a list of who is currently hosting OSS repositories and the best way to contact them. Please either comment here or send your responses to me at kees@osdl.org or both.

Also, join us at the workshop, if you're able. It's in Portland, Oregon and is a component of the Open Source as Prior Art (OSAPA) initiative. The group will include software authors and users, folks representing different repositories, and social/community collaboration experts such as Ward Cunningham. The USPTO will also be joining us to help define and create the distributed social tagging mechanism that describes open source software. It's a huge step towards creating a searchable system that identifies existing software code and will give the USPTO a much needed tool for improving patent review and supporting the work of open source developers.

The workshop is open to the community and anyone interested in software tagging or currently hosting software projects is invited to attend. Check it out.

Note that the invitation to the conference is to users too, not just authors, of Open Source software. They would like your input to help them define and create a distributed "Social Tagging" mechanism to describe OSS, nothing less. If you go to the Open Source as Prior Art website, it says this is the goal of that project:

We want to see fewer poor quality patents. We also wish to help people defend themselves against bad patents. Our strategy to achieve this is simple. Help the USPTO use Open Source as prior art.

And on the registration page for the conference, they list this as their goal:

The goal is to create a system that will allow the characteristics of OSS code and documentation to be easily collected and searched by everyone, while still being distributed and shared by all participating repositories.

You can see from the description that you don't need to be a genius hacker to participate meaningfully. No idea is too small or insignificant, because someone else can build on it. And no individual or small group can possibly think of all that a large group like this can, and regularly does, I might add. Note that the USPTO is sending representatives to this conference. Here's the conference flyer [PDF], giving all the details. I'd like to tell you why I think it's important to get this right.

I have an article I just wrote for LWN.net, which will be available to subscribers soon, on the Blackboard e-learning patent, which I'm sure you've heard about. In doing my research, I found that to many, the patent seems absurdly obvious, not to mention trivial. I'm sure Blackboard would disagree, but I asked myself, how does a patent like this get approved? The answer, I've learned, or at least part of the answer is because the USPTO examiners are required to act like bots. I don't mean that in any derogatory sense, just in the limited sense that they must do what they are instructed to do when it comes to searching for prior art and are supposed to search only certain places. What they are instructed to do is search their database of previously issued patents, and if they don't find anything there, all other things being equal, the patent will likely be approved. FOSS prior art isn't represented in that database, for the most part, for obvious reasons, and that has been one significant contributor to some inappropriate patents being approved, despite abundant prior art existing.

Now, you and I may not be able to change the world altogether, but we can certainly change that. So if you know about any software tagging applications or have ideas on how they should work or you are responsible for a software repository or are an interested user of Open Source software, please contact them and let them add your repository to the list they are drawing up and if you can attend the conference, so much the better, because there you can learn and share any ideas you may have for best practices for software tagging and time stamping and can help them tweak what they have done so far. They'd appreciate input even if you can't attend the workshop, but if you can be there to see their OSSTAG demo, you'll be better able to help them improve it. They would like to have you there very much. Their flyer reads in part like this:

Open Source as Prior Art

Improving the quality of software patents

Software Tagging Workship
September 14 & 15, 2006
OSDL Offices -- Portland, OR

Come join OSDL and the USPTO working with key players in the Open Source Community to collaborate on the future of Software Tagging

OSDL is hosting a workshop for Open Source Software authors, repositories, and users to help define and create a distributed "Social Tagging" mechanism to describe OSS. The goal is to create a system that allows the characteristics of OSS code and documentation to be easily collected and searched by everyone, while still being distributed and shared by all participating repositories. This workshop is a continuation of an ongoing series of public meetings between the USPTO and the Open Source Community previously held in Dec. '05 and Feb. '06.

Objectives:

  • meet everyone face-to-face
  • understand the challenges facing a distribued software tagging system
  • improve the OSSTag prototype

Who should attend: anyone interested in software tagging and anyone that hosts software projects is invited to attend.

7:00-9:30 PM Sept. 13th - Welcome Reception - Henry's 12th Street Tavern
8:00-8:30 AM - Day 1, Sept. 14th - OSDL Software Tagging Workshop at OSDL
Day 2, Sept 15th - OSDL Software Tagging Workshop at OSDL

The first day of the conference, it starts with coffee and check-in, then introductions, and then a schedule that looks like this:

Consumer Presentations
OSSTag Demo
Prioritization
Producer Presentations
Lunch Break
Best Practices for Manual Software Tagging
Best Practices for Recording Time-Stamps
Coffee Break
Planning Session

Day 2 goes like this:

In-Source Tag Integration
Additional Discussion Topics
Lunch Break
Additional Discussion Topics

The schedule seems to be that on the first day, they show what they already know and have in place. Day 2 looks to be your opportunity to influence what improvements, tweaks and edits are made to the system. You can register on the website. Henry's 12th Street Tavern is at 10 NW 12th Avenue (I know -- odd, but there you are), Portland, Oregon. OSDL is in Beaverton, at 12725 SW Millikan Way.


  


Another Request to Pick Groklaw's Brain & an Invitation to OSDL's Conference on Software Tagging | 129 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
If it is not patented.....
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 30 2006 @ 07:09 PM EDT
"What they are instructed to do is search their database of previously
issued patents, and if they don't find anything there, all other things being
equal, the patent will likely be approved."

.....it must be patentable. That surely can not be right. Some things have not
been patented for the very reason that thay are obvious and trivial.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Corrections Here
Authored by: Ed L. on Wednesday, August 30 2006 @ 07:11 PM EDT
.

---
"They coulda and they shoulda and they knew it but they didn't." ~ The Hon.
Brooke Wells in a Nutshell

[ Reply to This | # ]

Another Request to Pick Groklaw's Brain & an Invitation to OSDL's Conference on Software Tagging
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 30 2006 @ 07:16 PM EDT
Groklaw Community is a "thinktank"!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Off-Topic Here
Authored by: Ed L. on Wednesday, August 30 2006 @ 07:17 PM EDT
I hope I'm not the only one who thinks this "universal world-wide multinational general-purpose open-source software taging and description" database will aid far more than "just" the United States Patent Office. Sometimes I think the "SCO-vs-TehWorld" case is becoming Microsoft's worst nightmare.

They shoulda just left well enough alone. Now look at what has went and happened...

---
"They coulda and they shoulda and they knew it but they didn't." ~ The Hon. Brooke Wells in a Nutshell

[ Reply to This | # ]

Software Tagging
Authored by: fredex on Wednesday, August 30 2006 @ 07:57 PM EDT
Am I the only one who has not a hint of a clue what "software tagging"
is?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Timestamping
Authored by: jseigh on Wednesday, August 30 2006 @ 09:00 PM EDT
Timestamping is a problem. Sourceforge isn't really very good there since you'd
need to keep all the code versions visible, which you may not want to do. Also
there's no good way to keep a historical record of the project web pages which
may contain relevant information. I use usenet newgroups which works pretty
good as long as Google keep it archived.

[ Reply to This | # ]

The problem compounds
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 30 2006 @ 09:26 PM EDT
The Patent Office is supposed to find prior art even when the prior art has
never been submitted to the Patent Office in a patent application. The Patent
Office has a hard time finding such prior art and thus ends up issuing bad
patents.

Later, when there is a fight over the bad patent, the prior art might surface
and be used to invalidate the bad patent in a court fight. This is very
annoying to patent lawyers and they seem to be laying awake at night dreaming up
ways to declare a bad patent still valid even after poorly documented prior art
finally surfaces. Currently patent lawyers are trying to create two new
loopholes where poorly documented prior art is overridden by a bad patent.
These are the proposed "first to file" rule and the
"obviousness" case before the Supreme Court.

The law expands by legal rulings which take it further and further from the
original intent of the law. This is how software patents came into existence in
the first place. I expect that there will be a series of cases putting bad
patents ahead of prior art until the lawyers make a bad patent valid in spite of
any prior art other than previous patent applications.

---------------------
Steve Stites

[ Reply to This | # ]

More Explanation Needed
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 30 2006 @ 10:34 PM EDT
Please ask Mr. Cook for a "Software Tagging for Dummies" explanation
of what Software Tagging IS.

Several articles I've read around the net describe the goals of the project,
although not completely clearly, and some in a somewhat elitist tone, but
completely gloss over any explanation as if everyone already knows what it is.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Strengthening the patent system: bad idea
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 02:23 AM EDT

This initiative, if successful, will strengthen the patent system for software. It is therefore a bad idea.

Today, the patent system for software is clearly broken. Even Bill Gates has said it is broken. There is a consensus in the industry. There really is a chance to get it fixed.

The last thing we should be doing is making the patent system for software better. This will take away the pressure - which is already there - for real reform.

As far as Free Software is concerned, software patents are bad per se. There are no "good" software patents. Presence or absence of "prior art" is irrelevant.

[ Reply to This | # ]

I Don't Quite Get It
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 04:15 AM EDT
It sounds absurd to me.
A tagging system that would be meaningful to a swarm of patent officer bots would be of little value to any IT type just browsing for a solution on sourceforge. Also, what FLOSS developer would be interested in tagging his project in such a way that any one of the thousands of ideas implemented within the project could be found by a bot.
Example: If you implement a Java compiler, then how do you tag your project in such a way that a patent officer can find your neat "error recovery in the parser" or "optimizer hack" that no other FLOSS Java compiler has?

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Interesting point - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 04:30 AM EDT
Who would have access to such a system?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 04:23 AM EDT
It strikes me that such a system (if based on keywords or search engine
technology) could prove to be a bad idea if it is available to everybody.
Imagine a bot pumping in keyword sequences until it finds a "No Matches
Found" then write software to fit the keywords... although I guess this
could come up with some innovative ideas ;-)

[ Reply to This | # ]

is there a classifcation method for mathematical theorems or methods?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 04:26 AM EDT
As each software patent essentially relates to a bit of mathemetics is there an
existing method that could be adapted?

--
Jaydee not logged in.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Software = Math - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 06:29 AM EDT
Another Request to Pick Groklaw's Brain & an Invitation to OSDL's Conference on Software Tagging
Authored by: Pogue Mahone on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 04:40 AM EDT
I don't think the so-called tagging will work. It relies on whoever is doing the tagging being able to predict what kinds of stupid patents are going to be applied for and what kinds of language the applicant will use to describe his "invention" - and therefore the keywords that the patent examiner will choose to search for. All that a searchable database will provide is a list of keywords to avoid when applying for a patent.

The only way to get rid of stupid patents once and for all is to get rid of the patent system. I'm not just talking about software patents here - there are plenty of stupid patents in other fields too.

But assuming that patents are here to stay, at least in the short term, we need a system of vigilance whereby patent applications are published in a public forum for criticism by interested parties who can supply (links to) prior art and other reasons why particular patents, or claims in a patent, should not be granted.

Publishing in the public forum should not occur automatically - only when the patent has been examined by the patent office and perhaps granted some kind of "provisional" status. The patent examiners should also learn from the feedback they receive, so that they know where to look in the future for certain kinds of prior art, so that the number of bad "provisional" patents should fall.

Lastly, might I suggest "incentive" as a means to eradicate bad patents. Paying the examiners by the number of applications that they reject would be a vast improvement.

---
All science is either physics or stamp collecting. (Ernest Rutherford)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Tagging Your FLOSS Puts You at Risk
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 04:41 AM EDT
Since I posted my "I Don't Quite Get it" comment, another thought occured to me.
I've read advice somewhere that says that it's best for a FLOSS developer not to look at patents so as to avoid "knowing infringement" accusations or "tripple damages" or something.
So, if I, a FLOSS dev, carefully tag every single idea in my project, then, since many patented ideas are obvious, is it not possible that I could infringe on a previous patent, and, further, that my idea is there, and tagged, and ready for the holder of the patent to come after me?
I wouldn't participate in such a system unless it could be guaranteed that my whole project was immune from patent attacks.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Bandits
Authored by: Alan(UK) on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 05:36 AM EDT
There are bandits in this town; the people are afraid to go out - the bandits
have guns.

There is a police force but all it does is sell ammunition to the bandits.

The people decide to give a list of stolen guns to the police.

The people feel safe now - there is dancing in the street.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Post your repositories here!
Authored by: Sander Marechal on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 07:11 AM EDT
To keep the comments easily searched for Kees Cook, let's post all repositories
below this post.

---
Sander Marechal
Geek, Programmer and many more, but not a lawyer

[ Reply to This | # ]

Software patents are counter productive
Authored by: philc on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 09:26 AM EDT
Look at the massive amount of time and money that goes into software patents at
all levels. There is no real protection for anyone. A few people occasionally
win large sums and everyone else continually loses time and money. That time and
money could have (should have) been spent on writing software.

I write software for a living. I can't afford to ever investigate whether
something I do violates one or more of the numerous patents. To do so would open
me to massive damages. I look at a software problem and devise a solution and
hope for the best. Hopefully I don't stumble onto some "new and unique,
non-obvious" technique that someone has patented. Fortunately, for me, my
employers end up owning the code and legal problems.

I really believe that Software patents are a bad idea. Copyright affords the
protection that is really needed.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Another Request to Pick Groklaw's Brain & an Invitation to OSDL's Conference on Software Tagging
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 10:28 AM EDT
While I applaud what initiatives such as this is trying to accomplish I can't
help but wonder whether they may extend the lifespan of a broken system or even
be abused in order to convince the rest of the world that problems with US
patent system are being addressed and the rest of the world can safely adopt a
similar system.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Another Request to Pick Groklaw's Brain & an Invitation to OSDL's Conference on Software Tagging
Authored by: gbl on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 10:32 AM EDT
As software is just automated ideas, tagging software is like tagging ideas and
probably impossible to do perfectly (as then you could write a program to
generate every possible idea :-))

Why not adapt something like Dewey Decimal?


---
If you love some code, set it free.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Anyone remember ELIZA?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 11:46 AM EDT

    Today, humanity can't write software that will pass the Turing test.
    The people applying for patents can pass the Turing test.
    The people that are supposed to accept or deny the patents have orders to apply themselves in such a way as to not be able to pass the Turing test.
To be able to set up a system that not only uses common language to describe anything from it's tiniest component to it's largest aggregate is going to be an undertaking of un-imaginable size.

Now imagine taking that system and incorporating the new buzzwords. Or how about the new slang that will creep into the Legal language instead of the English language? How about the new conceptual language created in Universities to describe something unique? What happens when a particular term is used in a similar but different method then that used to describe a previous invention?

Umm... just... wow. To take humans, instruct and train them to behave like bots so they can't pass the Turing test, and then expect them to be able to make clean judgement calls on information provided to them from an intelligence that can pass the Turing test. WOW!

To give those that don't quite understand what I'm refering to above a better understanding, look up the following two:

  1. ELIZA: an "ai" program for meaningful conversation. Author Joseph Weizenbaum.
  2. Elizabeth: an improved version of ELIZA. Not sure who the author is.

RAS

[ Reply to This | # ]

Tagging and tagging apps
Authored by: marbux on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 02:47 PM EDT
On the meaning of tagging, see Wikipedia for an introduction.

One of the more interesting FOSS tagging applications I've seen lately is the GNU/Linux Semantic Storage System (GLScube), Sourceforge. It might be worth a look for the project under discussion.

There are four 1-minute web videos (no audio) on the site that are worth thousands of words. It's a semantic pseudo file system of sorts that uses PostgreSQL as the database back end and Apache Lucene as the search engine. It integrates with a Linux system running as a client module for FUSE, so no dependencies on a given desktop environment. Supports lots of file types and more on the way, with partial support in place for OpenDocument (not mentioned on web site). It also has APIs for integration with other apps, so it's conceivable that a solution for the project under discussion that includes GLScube might integrate well with workflows and other information repositories at the USPTO.

The tagging system seems pretty straightforward and easy to use and from the web site's description it seems that searches can either include or exclude the metadata. They also have Lucene set up to create synonym rings for search terms, which I would think would be essential if the whole world is allowed to tag data. It's also configured to convert queries to live queries, so you can be alerted if new responsive data is added. There's more, of course.

Although it's in early beta, it looks promising, one of the projects I'm keeping an eye on. And the design documentation (PDF) is impressive, at least to this layman.

What company is behind it isn't revealed on either of the sites linked above, so I did some sleuthing. GLScube is apparently being developed by EJADA Systems Company Limited, a Mid-East/Northern Africa ("MENA") company formed in early 2005 from the merger of three MENA ICT companies, Advanced Computer Technology (ACT), NEWTEK Solutions International, and Elite Computer Solutions (Elite), resulting in what is said to be one of the larger ICT companies in the MENA region.

In April of this year SEDCO, the Saudi Economic & Development Company, acquired a 30 per cent stake in EJADA. , a company that prides itself on long-term investments.

The merged EJADA company is headquartered in Riadyh, Saudi Arabia, with offices in Jeddah, Al Khobar, Amman, Cairo, Alexandria and Dubai and through its partners in Beirut, Kuwait, Yemen and Oman. EJADA says it now has over 400 "professional" staff, whereas the company's press announcements at the time of formation claimed 350 "employees," so it seems to be a rapidly-growing company. As nearly as I could tell, there are 5-6 developers working on GLScube.

EJADA appears to be squarely aimed at the enterprise software market, so GLScube would seem to fit well with its business plans, giving the company a competitive advantage in the MENA region, particularly now that WinFS has been acknowledged by Microsoft as vaporware. I suspect this is a product that will reach production grade fairly soon.

---
Retired lawyer

[ Reply to This | # ]

Debtags?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 06:58 PM EDT
I can't believe no-one's mentioned it already.

debtags is the system Debian is moving to to keep track of the 17000-odd
packages in its repository. It's designed to be fairly scalable, and with that
in mind does not keep a single tag database as part of the package repository,
but allows you to define your own, or use another if you choose. (Debian does
provide their own default tag database, of course, but it's optional).

Links:

<a href="http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/paper-debtags.html">A
paper describing the ideas behind debtags</a>

<a href="http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/faq.html">Debtags
FAQ</a>

<a
href="http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/debtags-devel"&g
t;The debtags-devel mailing list homepage</a> and <a
href="http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debtags-devel/">arch
ive</a>.

<a href="http://wiki.debian.org/DebTags">The debtags
wiki</a>.

<a href="http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/">The debtags
homepage</a>, including most of the above links and more...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Debian Tagging System
Authored by: John Hasler on Thursday, August 31 2006 @ 11:12 PM EDT
Debtags might be of interest.

---
IOANAL. Licensed under the GNU General Public License

[ Reply to This | # ]

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