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MP3 of MA Meeting on Open Formats
Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 02:35 AM EDT

I found this fascinating. The Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council (an organization formed by a combination of the Massachusetts Software Council and the New England Business and Technology Association) had a meeting last Friday with Massachusetts Secretary of Administration & Finance Eric Kriss, CIO of the Commonwealth Peter Quinn, representatives from Microsoft, IBM, Adobe, Sun, and other companies and groups to discuss the XML/Open Document format decision and to provide feedback to Massachusetts.

Dan Bricklin taped it, and he has made it available on his website as an MP3. He does a brief introduction, then Secretary Kriss talks for about 20 minutes, and then Q&A starts at about 21 minutes in or so. The meeting lasts for 2 hours. The first time Stuart McKee of Microsoft (National Technology Officer) speaks is at 26:15. Microsoft is clearly not happy, and they ask what would make it possible to get added to the list. Kriss tells them clearly. They don't seem to understand the answer.

Bricklin requests that you right-click the MP3 to download it and listen to it after it has downloaded, as opposed to just clicking on it and listening.

Update: Tim Bray has posted a participant's notes from the meeting. Also, I have permission to do a transcript. If anyone is in a position to help with that, especially the interaction between Microsoft and Kriss, that would be very helpful.


  


MP3 of MA Meeting on Open Formats | 287 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Corrections Here
Authored by: Leccy on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 02:49 AM EDT
Please put your corrections here.



---
To err is human.
To really mess it up takes a software patent

[ Reply to This | # ]

Off Topic Posts (OT)
Authored by: Leccy on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 02:51 AM EDT
Please include HTML links and a brief description of the content of the page
being linked.



---
To err is human.
To really mess it up takes a software patent

[ Reply to This | # ]

MP3 of MA Meeting on Open Formats
Authored by: dfarning on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 03:49 AM EDT
What is the world is this Dan Bricklin fellow thinking? Doesnít he realize
that:
A. open standards are bad
and
B. Decisions made in the open are even worse

Really Dan, thanks for putting this up. I am working on getting the local
public school system to refrain from using non-open standards when sending
information home to parents. I canít see why parents need to buy propriety
products because the school system gets them at a steep discount. In Total Cost
of Ownership studies, we should start including the cost of our clients or
customers buying software they donít otherwise need to read our output.

[ Reply to This | # ]

MP3 of MA Meeting on Open Formats
Authored by: Halmonster on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 04:16 AM EDT
Anyone ever hear of a Free audio format called Ogg Vorbis?

---
http://www.BuiltOnLinux.com

[ Reply to This | # ]

Open Formats?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 04:52 AM EDT
MP3 Royalty Rates (mp3licensing.com)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Microsoft's representative...
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 05:13 AM EDT
...was totally full of weasel words, and avoided questions like Agent Smith
dodging bullets.

It was actually painful listening to people trying to pin him down...

[ Reply to This | # ]

MP3 of MA Meeting on Open Formats
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 07:53 AM EDT
If you think the MS response was bad what about this garbage

[ Reply to This | # ]

Link for Radio amateurs
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 08:34 AM EDT
link

--

MadScientist

[ Reply to This | # ]

MP3 of MA Meeting on Open Formats
Authored by: talexb on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 08:53 AM EDT
    Bricklin requests that you right-click the MP3 to download it and listen to it after it has downloaded, as opposed to just clicking on it and listening.

Huh?!?? Don't they do the same thing?

Left clicking downloads the file to a temporary file and launches the appropriate handler for that type of file; right clicking and doing a Save As downloads the file to a location you specify .. then you launch the appropriate application

Either way, the file gets downloaded -- so how does that save Mr. Bricklin's server?

-- Puzzled in Toronto --

[ Reply to This | # ]

MAKE A TORRENT
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 09:05 AM EDT
Dan could save himself a lot of bandwidth and the rest of us a lot of time if he
posted a torrent instead of a raw mp3. There will probably be thousands of
people downloading this thing.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Cost estimate between MS and OO upgrades
Authored by: huey on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 09:07 AM EDT
I'm enjoying listening to the recording, but I was encouraged to know that the
MA leadership really gets it. About 41 minutes into the recording, MA Secretary
Kriss, I believe it was, said they estimate it will cost them $50M to upgrade to
the latest MS Office, and expect the cost if they were
"hypothetically" to go to Open Office would be $5M, a 10x
differential. He also proclaims it's not a cost procurement issue.
Maybe MS won't be able to buy their way in by offering a 90% discount!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Error in there?
Authored by: Matt C on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 09:13 AM EDT
"would mandate that state agencies use
only open source and open standard software by January 1, 2007"

Is this true. OS software AND standards? I thought it was just standards...

[ Reply to This | # ]

MP3 of MA Meeting on Open Formats
Authored by: Stumbles on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 09:48 AM EDT
Hmm, I've never really given it much thought but that was some
interesting information from the Adobe guy about the PDF format.
I now understand why Mass has included it on "the list".

---
You can tune a piano but you can't tune a fish.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Transcript Anyone?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 09:51 AM EDT
For those of us who are at work and can't listen to audio (no speakers), is
there any chance someone or a group of someones would be willing to create a
text transcript?

I realize it would probably be a lot of work (if it's a two-hour recording), but
might be nice if someone is up to it. Maybe a full transcript might be too much,
but perhaps someone could transcribe a few minutes of the most *interesting*
bits? (Yeah, I realize that is a rather subjective determination - I'll let the
transcribers decide what they think is most interesting).

I'll probably just listen to it (or parts of it), tonight at home. If no one
else has gotten around to it, maybe I'll even transcribe bits. If anyone *is*
planning to do transcription, maybe we could coordinate an effort (that is, let
me know what 10 or 15 minute segment to transcribe [e.g. from 00:25.00 -
00:40.00]).

[ Reply to This | # ]

Microsoft is not going for compatibility, they are going for Monopolistic sales
Authored by: clark_kent on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 10:53 AM EDT
"Microsoft is clearly not happy, and they ask what would make it possible
to get added to the list."

Of course, let us just forget what we were all talking about in the past about
Microsoft incompatability. Do they get it? They were already told. It is THAT
Black and White! Support Open Formats, support OASIS specs, do what the customer
wants, or get out! Don't push people around Microsoft. Your time is up!

Hey, Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer, you hear me? Your philosophy about IT stinks
and I don't care HOW RICH you are!

In the name of Jesus Christ, I condemn Microsoft's monopolistic actions.

[ Reply to This | # ]

MP3 of MA Meeting on Open Formats
Authored by: Stumbles on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 10:59 AM EDT
Well it sounded like to me nearly everyone there understood
where Mass is coming from, what their goals are and what Mass
means by the words they use. There was some quibbling about
some terminology and standards use but overall I think the
participants got it.

As usual, it sounded like to me that Microsoft is the only one that
that by my view still insists their technology is the only way. And
that some how it would cost them buckets and buckets of money
to meet the standard. Oddly enough if XML is chosen they already
use that so I fail to see their problem. Excluding of course the
problem being they are not currently "on the list".

Pj is certainly right. How much more clearer can Mass be when
they itemized the 3 things that Microsoft needed to do?

---
You can tune a piano but you can't tune a fish.

[ Reply to This | # ]

FINAL POLICY POSTED: Open Formats
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 11:06 AM EDT
The final version of the Massachusetts policy has been posted on
http://mass.gov/Aitd/ along with public comments and FAQ.

[ Reply to This | # ]

M$ next move?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 12:27 PM EDT
I wonder if M$ will try to isolate Mass by going out to
all Mass neighbors and the Fed to make sure something
similar doesn't happen there? It seems like a childish
thing to do but it kind of fits M$ mode of operation.

I'm sure other states are watching to see what happens.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Hmmmm, anyone have a contact at M$ procurement?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 03:00 PM EDT
I sense an impending demand increase for chairs...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Simple cost access solution.
Authored by: darkonc on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 04:01 PM EDT
During the next election, the government could make available, to every single voter in the state, a CD with free (as in both beer and freedom) software for playing with the Open Document format -- such as Open Office, Koffice, etc.).

The total cost of such an initiative would be under $6Million The cost of upgrading to the new version of office 12, and the consequent OS and hardware upgrades, along with training, etc. was estimated at about $50Million.

---
Powerful, committed communication. Touching the jewel within each person and bringing it to life..

[ Reply to This | # ]

History repeating itself
Authored by: SpaceLifeForm on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 04:39 PM EDT
Link

Slightly different, but just as symbolic.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Ogg version available
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 05:41 PM EDT
I'm sorry I didn't have time to also produce an Ogg Vorbis copy yesterday when I posted the original MP3. I understand the irony of using only MP3. My version of Audition doesn't support Ogg. Early this morning I loaded the MP3 into Audacity and saved it as a ".ogg". I was out all day at a client and didn't have time to check it out, upload it, and update the wiki until just now. But now it's up. So, there is an Ogg Vorbis format version of the meeting available, with a link on the wiki page along with the MP3 one. (The Ogg file is a bit bigger due to my techniques.)

For those who don't have time to listen to the whole thing, Tim Bray has a report about the meeting on his website: "New England Town Meeting". It has an attendee's impressions in great detail.

-Dan Bricklin

[ Reply to This | # ]

Eric Kriss Demolishes the FUD :)
Authored by: SilverWave on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 07:04 PM EDT
A big thanks for recommending the mp3 pj.

The whole OpentDocument rationale.. well argued and explained from the State
side, unexpected reservations from Novell.

Powerful arguments for the freedom to control of your own data.

Microsoft PR guy very quiet, just a advert for the new Office and a dig about
IP.

Oh and a BIG hint to MS about Office costing x10 as much as OpenOffice.org from
State.

Massachusetts must be commended for their commitment to doing the right thing
and are now on the way to being a poster child for open democratic government in
action.

Oh and a fun game to play is to count the number of MS toadies/plants... I count
5, how many did you get?


---
"They [each] put in one hour of work,
but because they share the end results
they get nine hours... for free"

Firstmonday 98 interview with Linus Torvalds

[ Reply to This | # ]

Tredding upon dangerous ground dept.
Authored by: Ed L. on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 07:06 PM EDT
I realise its a bit hazardous undertaking to flatter an attorney's ego -- even a retired one such as Marbux. Nonetheless, reading through the FAQ on the MA aitd website left me with the uneasy impression that Mr. Kriss and Mr. Quinn had an exteremely close grip on the licensing issues revolving about Microsoft's Office XML formats. Almost as if they had actually read that lengthy anal ysis submitted to them by Marbux last spring (or perhaps a different though identical one prepared by someone else).

Do ya think its possible?

:-)

---
"Radio Shack -- When you've got the answers, we've got the parts." -usually satisfied customer

[ Reply to This | # ]

.odt of MS's comments..
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 11:25 PM EDT
This is tooo precious! ;-)..
   The Mass AITD site has an Open Document format of MS's comments. What Irony!

   bobby

[ Reply to This | # ]

BitTorrent of the MP3
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 22 2005 @ 11:52 PM EDT
I've contacted Dan Bricklin and he doesn't see a problem with posting this as an BitTorrent.

You can find it here

Download and share.

[ Reply to This | # ]

I predict ...
Authored by: DMF on Friday, September 23 2005 @ 02:50 PM EDT
I predict that once the open format policy is officially adopted (and that may
yet be a long and treacherous process), Microsoft will respond with a special
"government" version of Office effectively available only to
Massachusetts. It will contain a version of Word that can save in Opendoc
format, possibly to a special "archive" while maintaining the working
edition in the same old proprietary format. (This will cause the effective
failure of the Opendoc mandate since it requires workers to proactively maintain
the archive.) It will unbundle enough froth to "let" them offer a
substantial discount when coupled with a long-term update plan like SA.

[ Reply to This | # ]

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