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A Bit of Insight into Methods and Concepts - Some New Pacer Docs
Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 05:26 PM EDT

Some fascinating SCO v. IBM documents have just shown up on Pacer. For one thing, we learn that there was a bit of a dustup after the April 21 hearing, with some letters being sent to Judge Kimball, and an odd suggestion on the eve of the hearing from SCO that the hearing be closed to the public, allegedly because they thought IBM might want it that way.

Hilarious. Their believability level is dropping in my eyes, and it was hovering fairly low to the ground already. Anyway, now we find out what Judge Dale Kimball was talking about at the hearing, when he said this:

"The second one, the motion for leave to file a third amended complaint, there might be some alleged confidential information there, but you can argue it in a way that doesn't refer directly to it. You can refer to it in exhibits and so on. So I'm sure for the happy conclusion of the spectators, the courtroom will not be sealed."
Now we know he was responding to SCO's letter, which we now can read. We also learn from the letters that SCO can be just as annoying in private as they are in public, that they either have no computer skills whatsoever or are pretending, and I think you will enjoy IBM's withering reply to SCO's letters. Here's the list of new documents available, all PDFs (which means we need transcribers, please):
Mr. Normand's letter is the one IBM responds to. It was all about SCO "clarifying" for the record an issue of when they received discovery from IBM. They contended that IBM didn't give them the discovery (the emails that they kept trying to out) until after the deadline for amending its complaint. SCO's basis for asking to amend its complaint a third time was that it had no reason to know about SVRX being used in AIX on Power and that they only found out from the discovery materials they alleged they didn't get until after the deadline to amend had passed. IBM had turned the materials over prior to the deadline, and they told the court they did at the hearing in April. So SCO next, in this letter after the hearing, tried to argue that the CDs produced were not in a proper form and so hindered their discovery. IBM tells the judge that SCO once again is trying to blame IBM for its own errors. SCO lost that battle, but here you can see the lengths they went to to try to prevail. SCO's arguments always sound so plausible, until you hear IBM reply.

SCO contends in the letter with a straight face that it couldn't possibly begin looking at documents on a CD IBM had turned over unless IBM redid it to include pagination inside the CD as opposed to an accompanying source log. IBM points out all they had to do is either print it out or scroll through or look at the log, but in any case, they did the CD over and turned it over eventually anyway, as a courtesy. IBM sent the judge a copy of the CDs so he could see, they say, that the materials were available to SCO literally at a click of the mouse.

SCO must stay up nights trying to figure out any, and I do mean any, conceivable way to spin things their way. I have a suggestion. I think before they submit things, they should ask the following questions: Is this true? Is it at least plausible? Will it make us look (a) petty, (b) silly (c) dishonest, (d) clueless, or (e) dishonorable? That might spare us all a lot of paperwork. Just a suggestion.

The redacted SCO memorandum is fascinating to me because it gives us a much clearer picture of what SCO is thinking in its methods and concepts claim regarding Linux. I also see why Judge Wells ordered discovery regarding Linux materials, something I found incomprehensible before.

See if you agree. What SCO complained to the court about was not just a list of IBM contributions to Linux, which are readily available to anyone by just looking in the public records. Here's what they wanted, in the context of complaining that IBM was refusing to provide a witness to testify:

With respect to SCO's Rule 30(b)(6) notices, IBM has improperly refused to produce any witness to testify on numerous subjects of central relevance to this case. With respect to SCO's Rule 30(b)(6) notice dated November 30, 2004, IBM has improperly refused to produce any witness to testify to the following topics:
"1. The extent to and manner in which UNIX Software Products were used, directly or indirectly, in the creation, derivation or modification of any source code that IBM contributed to Linux, including but not limited to the following:

a. The date and nature of IBM's contributions of source code from AIX or Dynix, whether copied in a literal or non-literal manner, to Linux;

b. IBM's and Sequent's use of structures, sequences, organization, ideas, method or concepts contained within any UNIX Software Product in developing source code that IBM contributed to Linux; and

c. The identity of the programmers who were exposed to any UNIX Software Product.

2. Identification of and role of IBM employees or contractors involved in the work responsive to Topic 1 above.

3. Identification of the steps taken by corporate representative witness to be able to respond fully and accurately to Topics 1 and 2 above, including but not limited to documents reviewed, employees consulted, and databases consulted." Exh. K.

IBM objects to each topic "on the grounds that it is vague, ambiguous, and overbroad and unduly burdensome." IBM further objects to these topics on the grounds that they seek information "more appropriately sought" through other discovery methods. Exh. M at 1.

IBM's objections to these topics are meritless. Either IBM is capable of identifying the code it contributed to Linux and the nature and manner of those contributions or it is not. Either way, this evidence is directly relevant because IBM's reliance on UNIX-derived AIX and Dynix in developing Linux is at the very heart of SCO's breach-of-contract claims. IBM's objections to SCO's 30(b)(6) topics are particularly untenable in light of IBM's long-standing refusal to produce adequate responses to SCO interrogatories and document requests that attempt to discover the programming history of IBM's Linux contributions.

That at least sounds more reasonable. I never could figure out why they would ask for a list of code contributions, which they can just find on the Internet.

Items 1(b) and (c) particularly caught my eye. They are wanting that information in (c) because if you can show access to proprietary code, and also similarity, you can more easily support a claim of copyright infringement. Here there is the added element of methods and concepts, which I think they are tying to their contract claims, although I do believe they have ideas about extending copyright to include methods and concepts at some point, if they can.

However, they face a couple of real problems. One is that practically every programmer on earth studied UNIX in school. They were able to do so because AT&T licensed UNIX to schools precisely so they would teach it. To turn around now and claim infringement of methods and concepts that you promoted be taught in colleges and universities around the world is ridiculous and sounds like a mighty dirty set-up to me. I feel sure they won't argue any such foolish thing. Well, after the no-pagination-on-CDs argument, who knows? But it's a losing argument.

For one thing, they've already acknowledged in open court that there are no trade secrets in Unix, just in UnixWare. But here, regarding UnixWare, they face another problem: SCO needs to ask themselves the following question. When Santa Cruz wrote code and donated it to Linux, and they did, did they carefully separate their UNIX and Linux coders? If not, where might any similarities in methods and concepts come from? You'll remember, if you've been with Groklaw long enough, that Santa Cruz UnixWare kernel engineer Tigran Aivazian told Groklaw that he was also making contributions to Linux with approval from his boss:

"Yes, my very humble contributions to the Linux kernel (BFS filesystem and IA32 microcode update driver) done during my work as an escalations (UnixWare kernel) engineer at SCO were approved by our then-director Wendy Jones (who now works for Sun I think) and by higher management as well (I have bad memory on names, so I can't remember exactly, I think it was on Doug's level or so).

"For example in the case of BFS filesystem the matter was as follows. I did NOT use any of the UnixWare (or other) proprietary code for the implementation, of course. However, despite this fact, I still (for courtesy and generally being cautious) requested permission from Wendy (Development director) before the release under GPL and she confirmed that SCO has no claims to this work whatsoever and has no objections to its release under GPL, because it is not connected to UnixWare source code in any way."

There's just one example of oldSCO's relaxed practices. There was evidently no Chinese wall at Santa Cruz separating UNIX and Linux coders, yet now SCO Group is suing IBM and trying desperately to prove that its Linux coders were exposed to UNIX and thus any similarities would be actionable under the contract. See any problems with that logic, given Tigran's testimony? Me too.

For those of you who like to keep track of such things, Groklaw has now published 2,000 articles. This one is 2,001. And our page on the lawyers in the SCO litigation, the Cast, has just hit a milestone too. There are now 100 lawyers listed on that page. Can you imagine?


  


A Bit of Insight into Methods and Concepts - Some New Pacer Docs | 239 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Corrections Here Please
Authored by: Briareus on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 05:35 PM EDT
Corrections Here Please

---
scary times are never dull

[ Reply to This | # ]

Offtopic Here Please
Authored by: Briareus on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 05:36 PM EDT
Please make posts clickable and whatnot.

Have a great day.

---
scary times are never dull

[ Reply to This | # ]

Is this true? Is it at least plausible? Will it make us look (a) petty, (b) silly (c) dishonest,
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 05:43 PM EDT
Is this true? Is it at least plausible? Will it make us look (a) petty, (b)
silly (c) dishonest, (d) clueless, or (e) dishonorable?

No. Not really. Yes. Maybe. Yes. I don't know. What do you mean?

Good enough - submit it.

[ Reply to This | # ]

4,000 page documents
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 05:53 PM EDT
IBM is keeping 4,000 page documents without indication of beginning and end of
the subject items contained within ... in the ordinary course of business.
What a company!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Methods and Concepts
Authored by: kawabago on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 06:24 PM EDT
Wouldn't Methods and Concepts, even if they were protectable, come under the
purview of the copyright owner, Novell? So SCO really has no standing the argue
methods and concepts anyway?

---
TTFN

[ Reply to This | # ]

The SCO lawyers are documented liars
Authored by: gnutechguy99 on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 07:08 PM EDT
<Rant starts here>

The SCO lawyers are documented liars. Why does IBM not call them on their lies
and call them such?

SCO asked for page breaks to put into electronic documents, and then stated
"IBM admitted [the format] was improper" in then doing so.

IBM needs to start using words like "perjury" and
"sanctions" when dealing with SCO's documented lying lawyers.

<End of a rant>

[ Reply to This | # ]

The Twilight Zone
Authored by: lsmft on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 07:14 PM EDT
These latest documents remind me of a story.

On the NYC subway cars there's a guy who plays a rendition of the Twilight Zone
theme. He plays it in the most TERRIBLY ANNYOING fashion. And what he says is
just give me money and I'll stop playing. And you know what, we do give him
money so he will stop (actually so he will go to another car and annoy the
people in it instead of us). If you ever heard him playing believe me you WOULD
give him money too. Perhaps SCO's lawyers saw his act?

[ Reply to This | # ]

"As annoying ..."
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 07:22 PM EDT

Is there any precedent for SCO's apparent strategy for winning:

Treat the judge hearing your own case like he's an idiot and he's bound to rule
in your favour?

Comments on the (few) negative implications of Novell attaching all of SCO's
assets and inviting Darl to hand over his shirt have tended towards the possible
loss of a rock-solid ruling on the status of the GPL.

Personally, I think it would just be a loss to humankind to miss out on the
honorable Judge Kimball's ruling on (evisceration of?) SCO's "case"
against IBM.

Without implying any partisanship on his part, I like to think he'd be quite
upset at the lost opportunity as well!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Other info in the IBM letter pdf
Authored by: PTrenholme on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 07:43 PM EDT
notice that the IBM letter pdf contains the start of the hearing transcript, as
well as copies of some of the other letters.

I suspect an error on the part of the clerk, but I do note that the hearing
started with SOC and IBM reiterating their letters.

My point is only to let you know that the info was there, not that there was
anything new or unusual in it.

[ Reply to This | # ]

A Bit of Insight into Methods and Concepts - Some New Pacer Docs
Authored by: urzumph on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 07:47 PM EDT
c. The identity of the programmers who were exposed to any UNIX Software Product.

Wow, that makes UNIX sound like a Biohazard.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Can SUN now destroy Santa Cruz/Tarantella LINUX/UNIX donation documents and records?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 07:48 PM EDT
Since SUN is buying out Tarantella...

Can SUN destory any evidence that is in the records at Tarantella (formerly
Santa Cruz Operation) that would help IBM and LINUX in this case (and other
cases)?

If so, then if SUN destroys evidence, what can happen?

[ Reply to This | # ]

IBM's Letter to Kimball with Disks...
Authored by: webster on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 08:06 PM EDT
...absolutely devastating! As was the hearing when IBM detailed the documents.

It is pretty tough when everything you do to try and propound your client's
interests backfires and further undermines whatever credibility remains.

Sometimes the advice, that "whatever you say can be used against you,"
goes for the lawyers, too!

---
webster

[ Reply to This | # ]

Loved the IBM Letter
Authored by: red floyd on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 08:19 PM EDT

I loved the IBM letter...

"We gave you what you wanted. You didn't like it. Our vendor says he can
fix it, and we'll get you the new CDs ASAP. Oh, and by the way, where are those
materials that you promised to provide 'expeditiously' a month ago?"


---
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *CITIZEN* of the United
States of America.

[ Reply to This | # ]

A Bit of Insight into Methods and Concepts - Some New Pacer Docs
Authored by: inode_buddha on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 08:38 PM EDT
Actually, ISTR downloading and reading Tigran's documents long before any of
this. The point still holds true, tho (IMHO): Even if "methods and
concepts" were protectable, they have been well known for decades.

---
-inode_buddha
Copyright info in bio

"When we speak of free software,
we are referring to freedom, not price"
-- Richard M. Stallman

[ Reply to This | # ]

The Tenth Circuit got it wrong.
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 09:14 PM EDT
The following Supreme Court holding is of interest to those who dislike software
patents:

"Neither the Copyright Statute nor any other says that because a thing is
patentable it may not be copyrighted. We should not so hold."; MAZER v.
STEIN, 347 U.S. 201 (1954)

Although Microsoft may patent a *method* to impliment an emoticon, they may not
reproduce an original authors *expression* of copyrighted code that implements
that emoticon (nor any translation into another language of that code).

The Tenth Circuit in The Gates Rubber Co. v. Bando Chemical Industries Ltd.; 9
F.3d 823 held concerning "filtering" in source code copyright
infringement:
"The Copyright Act provides: 'In no case does copyright protection for an
original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system,
method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in
which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.'"

What the Tenth Circuit *didn't* say was: In no case does patent protection
extend to original *expression*.

The Tenth Circuit is clearly contradicting the Supreme Court in Bando v. Gates
-- A patent does not override the protection of *expression* in a copyright
infringement test.





[ Reply to This | # ]

A Bit of Incorrect sight into Methods and Concepts - Some New Pacer Docs
Authored by: LionKuntz on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 09:41 PM EDT


Items 1(b) and (c) particularly caught my eye. They are wanting that information in (c) because if you can show access to proprietary code, and also similarity, you can more easily support a claim of copyright infringement. Here there is the added element of methods and concepts, which I think they are tying to their contract claims, although I do believe they have ideas about extending copyright to include methods and concepts at some point, if they can.

So, I thought, here goes PJ doing TSCOG's FUD again, in some posture of trying to look "fair". We've been over and over and over it again and again and again... UNIX "methods, concepts & sequences" is public domain, having been openly taught with AT&T permission. Then I read on...

However, they face a couple of real problems. One is that practically every programmer on earth studied UNIX in school. They were able to do so because AT&T licensed UNIX to schools precisely so they would teach it. To turn around now and claim infringement of methods and concepts that you promoted be taught in colleges and universities around the world is ridiculous and sounds like a mighty dirty set-up to me. I feel sure they won't argue any such foolish thing. Well, after the no-pagination-on-CDs argument, who knows? But it's a losing argument.

It's more than that. AT&T, Bell Labs themselves taught UNIX programming, concepts, methods and sequences, and invited that the students access the souce code of UNIX in the course held on AT&T Bell Labs premises taught by AT&T Bell Labs employees.

Just the other day I posted the link to Amazon.com that lists the book everybody can openly buy...

(Remember this?)

Here is a book published in 1986:
Design of the UNIX Operating System (Prentice Hall Software Series) (Textbook Binding)
by Maurice J. Bach

* Textbook Binding: 486 pages
* Publisher: Prentice Hall PTR; 1 edition (May 27, 1986)
* Language: English
* ISBN: 0132017997

"This book describes the internal algorithms and structures that form the basis of the operating system (called the kernel) and their relationship to the programmer interface. It is thus applicable to several environments. First, it can be used as a textbook for an operating systems course at either the advanced undergraduate or first-year graduate level. It is most beneficial to reference the system source code when using the book, but the book can be read independently, too. Second, system programmers can use the book as a reference to gain better understanding of how the kernel works and to compare algorithms used in the UNIX system to algorithms used in other operating systems." ...

"The material and organization for the book grew out of a course that I prepared and taught at AT&T Bell Laboratories during 1983 and 1984. While the course centered on reading the source code for the system, I found that understanding the code was easier once the concepts of the algorithms had been mastered. I have attempted to keep the descriptions of algorithms in this book as simple as possible, reflecting in a small way the simplicity and elegance of the system it describes. Thus, the book is not a line-by-line rendition of the system written in English; it is a description of the general flow of the various algorithms, and most important, a description of how they interact with each other. Algorithms are presented in a C-like pseudo-code to aid the reader in understanding the natural language description, and their names correspond to the procedure names in the kernel. Figures depict the relationship between various data structures as the system manipulates them. In later chapters, small C programs illustrate many system concepts as they manifest themselves to users. In the interests of space and clarity, these examples do not usually check for error conditions, something that should always be done when writing programs. I have run them on System V; except for programs that exercise features specific to System V, they should run on other versions of the system, too." ...


Let's make sure you understand every word said here: in 1983 and 1984, Bell Labs was teaching a course in how to program using the "structure, sequence, organization" of Unix, and optionally, referencing the Source Code. Successor-in-interest (facts not in evidence) TSCOG cannot retroactively erase this history to restore Unix to virginal status.


So, one more time: AT&T Bell Labs taught structures, sequences, concepts of the UNIX operating System in 1983 & 1984. They preferred that the source code be read in the course. They taught this is how we do it. They took the money. In exchange for taking the money they forfeited permanently the proprietary secrecy. This book was published in 1986. Anyone on earth can purchase it from Amazon.com for List Price: $73.33, or as low as $12 used (60 to chooce from used today).

I hope this is the very last time, the ultimate last time, that you spread TSCOG's FUD for them. AT&T sold the cow in 1983-84 and TSCOG can't charge for the milk now. The sequences, concepts, methods and structures went into the public domain when this book was published in 1986. In exchange for the purchase price AT&T gave permission to "do this". Any purported successor of interest has no claims on virginal IP in UNIX in the third millenium.


[ Reply to This | # ]

Document Breaks v. Page Breaks
Authored by: anthracyda on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 10:22 PM EDT
There seems to be some confusion as to whether the issue is page
breaks or document breaks. There is a difference. Debra Goodstone's
letter indicates SCO wanted document breaks. Christopher Kao
(Cravath) March 4, 2004 letter talks about both page breaks and
document breaks. His March 10 letter clarifies that document breaks
have been included since Mark Heise raised the issue in 2003. Todd
Shaughnessy's letter to Judge Kimball in 2005 is talking about page
breaks.

[ Reply to This | # ]

A Bit of Insight into Methods and Concepts - Some New Pacer Docs
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 04 2005 @ 11:43 PM EDT
Is this true? Is it at least plausible? Will it make us look (a) petty, (b)
silly (c) dishonest, (d) clueless, or (e) dishonorable?

You forgot

(f) all of the above?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Transcriptions
Authored by: aj on Friday, August 05 2005 @ 02:04 AM EDT

The commenter deleted his comment

[ Reply to This | # ]

Transcriptions
Authored by: aj on Friday, August 05 2005 @ 02:13 AM EDT
are distributed here.

[ Reply to This | # ]

I'm going to sue PJ
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 05 2005 @ 07:29 AM EDT
I don't know what I'm going to sue her for yet, but she must have done something
to harm me. She probably criticised me on her website or something. Clearly, I
can't know what it is she's done yet, because I haven't done discovery and I'm
sure she deleted the offending post before I could see it, but not before the
rest of the world did. I'll think of something that looks vaguely feasible,
just bad enough to permit me to file a complaint. Something that can maybe be
denied, but not disproved until after discovery. Oh, how it hurts! I can feel
it harming me already!

Having filed, I'll get things moving smoothly by entering my Motion to Compel
Discovery. What I'll ask for are these:

Any computer that PJ has ever owned, begged, borrowed, stolen or used, at home
or at work, regularly or temporarily;

Any electronic copy of any document that can be found on the internet (including
but not limited to the Groklaw website) that PJ has ever written, containing the
word "the";

Any electronic copy of any document that can be found referenced via the browser
caches of any of the abovementioned computers, whether or not they contain the
word "the";

Any and all emails in any email account PJ has ever had access to, business or
private, regardless of what words they contain, whether they contain no words at
all, or whether or not they could be identified as "spam";

Any magnetic, USB, optical or other type of removable storage media PJ has ever
laid her hands on, whatever their content;

The entire contents of all storage devices and backup media pertaining to any
computers in any internet cafe, library or educational establishment PJ has ever
visited;

Any paper documents containing any of the words "Pamela",
"Jones", "PJ" or "Groklaw", to be found in any
abode PJ has ever frequented, and any other bits of paper besides;

All Groklaw servers, fully configured and operational, the content of all
storage devices attached and any backup media pertaining thereto, INCLUDING THE
SOURCE CODE;

PJ's account details and any existing statements pertaining thereto, whether
paper or electronic, for any bank account, credit, debit, Paypal, internet, or
store card account PJ has ever used, or has access to and has not yet used, in
her name, pseudonym or joint holding;

The entire contents of all storage devices of all computers connected to the
internet that have ever connected to the "Groklaw" website,
intentionally or inadvertently, which might thus have deleted posts from the
"Groklaw" website filed in their browser caches - and any other files
on those computers besides.

The entire contents of Google's web cache;

The internet;

PJ's school books;

PJ's medical records;

(The last two might get denied, but I can afford to sacrifice those, which gives
the judge a way of appearing to be fair to both parties).

I'm bound to find something in that little lot, after which, I'll file a motion
to amend my complaint and then I've got her: GUILTY.

[ Reply to This | # ]

A Bit of Insight into Methods and Concepts - Some New Pacer Docs
Authored by: JJ on Friday, August 05 2005 @ 08:40 AM EDT
They are wanting that information in (c) because if you can show access to proprietary code, and also similarity, you can more easily support a claim of copyright infringement. Here there is the added element of methods and concepts, which I think they are tying to their contract claims, although I do believe they have ideas about extending copyright to include methods and concepts at some point, if they can.

I think that's quite likely true. I seem to recall Kevin McBride saying that SCO v. IBM was a very unusual(tm) case that would take copyright into entirely new areas.

-JJ

"Unusual" is a trademark of The SCO Group.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Is this a new astroturf?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 05 2005 @ 09:57 AM EDT
This is the 4th comment I've seen in the last month like
this (on groklaw and elsewhere).

Someone notices that a company is producing a GPL product,
and is also providing it as a commercial licence.
Perfectly legitimate, but the poster thinks its some
devious tactic to subvert the GPL.

I hope its just ignorance, but the occurances seem a
little strange.

One other poster even tried to start a boycott against the
company that was duel-licensing their stuff because their
trademark was not transferable along with the code.

It seems to me it could very well be an astroturf trying
to scare companies from releasing their code under the
GPL, or just general FUD.

[ Reply to This | # ]

    Methods and Concepts - During Discovery
    Authored by: rsteinmetz70112 on Friday, August 05 2005 @ 01:00 PM EDT
    I may be missing something but does anyone else see that these discovery requests as not so much asking for information but admissions. It seems to me that any answer IBM gives will be used against them. I often see reference to documents as to the documents being the best evidence the meaning of the document.
    "1. The extent to and manner in which UNIX Software
    Products were used, directly or indirectly, in the creation, derivation or
    modification of any source code that IBM contributed to Linux, including but not
    limited to the following:
    
    a. The date and nature of IBM's contributions of
    source code from AIX or Dynix, whether copied in a literal or non-literal
    manner, to Linux;
    Doesn't this assume that IBM did contribute code from Aix and Dynix to Linux? Perhaps they just contributed methods and concepts which IBM developed. of perhaps the code came form somewhere Else, like OS2 or the BSD version of Dynix. Wouldn't any denial be used by SCOG to say that any similarities were the result of IBM's lies?
    b. IBM's and Sequent's use of structures, sequences,
    organization, ideas, method or concepts contained within any UNIX Software
    Product in developing source code that IBM contributed to Linux;
    and
    Isn't this doing SCOG's research for them? And wouldn't the best evidence be the code itself?
    c. The identity of the
    programmers who were exposed to any UNIX Software
    Product.
    This list would dwarf the 8,000 people who had access to AIX, which SCOG complained was not responsive because it was so large?
    2. Identification of and role of IBM employees or
    contractors involved in the work responsive to Topic 1
    above.
    Doesn't this assume that 1 above actually happened?
    3. Identification of the steps taken by corporate
    representative witness to be able to respond fully and accurately to Topics 1
    and 2 above, including but not limited to documents reviewed, employees
    consulted, and databases consulted."
    Isn't this doing SCOG's analysis for them, how is that proper?

    Isn't SCOG still trying to get IBM to prove their own case for them?

    ---
    Rsteinmetz - IANAL therefore my opinions are illegal.

    "I could be wrong now, but I don't think so."
    Randy Newman - The Title Theme from Monk

    [ Reply to This | # ]

    A Bit of Insight into Methods and Concepts - Some New Pacer Docs
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, August 05 2005 @ 05:55 PM EDT
    Before rushing into accusing IBM of stealing operating system methods and concepts, let's have a look at a bit of history. I've added MVT to a partial list taken from http://www.os390-mvs.freesur f.fr/mvshist.htm
    MVT (Multiple Virtual Tape - don't have date but preceded disks)
    OS/360 (1964)
    MVS (1972)
    MVS/370 (1979)
    MVS/XA (1981)
    Now I'm not accusing, or suggesting, that the authors of Unix used methods and concepts from IBM operating systems. What I am suggesting is that with a long history of independantly writing its own operating systems IBM will have explored many methods and concepts. Which muddies the water somewhat. SCO claim: you stole our code, no our idea. IBM counterclaim: we thought of it first. But this is SCO, muddied waters are their forte.

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