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Gates v. Denmark
Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:11 AM EST

If you have ever wondered what Bill Gates says when he flies to Europe to meet with heads of state, we now have clarity, as business dudes might put it. Here's an article in Danish on precisely what Bill told Denmark he'd do if they opposed the software patents directive, followed by a rough translation by an alert Groklaw reader there, one of several to send this item to us:

"Stifteren af verdens største softwarevirksomhed Bill Gates er nu parat til at lukke Navision i Danmark og flytte de knap 800 udviklere bag Danmarks største softwaresucces til USA."

The founder of the world's largest software company, Bill Gates, is now ready to shut down Navision in Denmark and move around 800 developers behind Denmarks biggest software success to the US.

"Det slog Microsoft-chefen fast, da han i november mødtes med statsminister Anders Fogh Rasmussen (V), samt økonomi- og erhvervsminister Bendt Bendtsen (K), og videnskabsminister Helge Sander (V). "

The Microsoft leader made that clear, when he meet with Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Economic and Business Minister Bendt Bendtsen and Science Minister Helge Sander in November.

"Truslen risikerer at blive ført ud i livet, hvis det lykkes dele af IT-branchen at få blokeret et omstridt EU-direktiv om patenter på software, som Microsoft for alt i verden gerne vil have vedtaget, men som gang på gang er blevet forhalet takket være modstandernes effektive lobbyarbejde. "

The threat risks being executet, if part of the IT business manages to block the disputed EU directive on patenting software, that Microsoft wants so dearly, but time and time again has been postponed thanks to efficient lobbying by anti-patent opposition.

"»Hvis jeg skal beholde mit udviklingscenter i Danmark, kræver det, at der kommer en afklaring på rettighedsspørgsmålet. Ellers flytter jeg det til USA, hvor jeg kan beskytte mine rettigheder,« sagde Bill Gates ifølge Microsofts chefjurist Marianne Wier, der også deltog på mødet med Anders Fogh Rasmussen."

"If I am to keep my development center in Denmark, I must have clearity on the rights issue. Otherwise I will move to the US, where I can protect my rights," said Gates according to to Microsoft chief attorney Marianne Wier, who also attended the meeting with Anders Fogh Rasmussen.

So, how do you like it? Still want to use this nice man's software? Here's FFII's statement. "Børsen", I'm told, is the largest financial daily in Denmark, sort of like our Wall St. Journal.

Speaking of rights, you all have the right to stop using Microsoft software, you know. Thanks to Richard Stallman and his GNU Project, Linus Torvalds, and thousands and thousands of good-hearted and skilled programmers who cared enough to give the world some very fine software, you actually do have a choice. If enough companies, individuals, and governments make that choice, this kind of bullying would be so over.

UPDATE: Henrik sends me this update, an article indicating that the Danish CEO of Microsoft business solutions is backtracking, says he was misquoted in Børsen, and that the company is not moving to the USA, no matter what happens to the patent directive.

UPDATE 2: Here's Microsoft's statement:

Statement from Regarding Microsoft Development Center at Vedbaek, Denmark

REDMOND, Wash. -- Feb. 15, 2005 -- Contrary to reports in the Danish media today, Microsoft stated that there are no plans to close the Microsoft Development Center at Vedbaek, Denmark. Microsoft remains committed to Vedbaek as a development center, as evidenced by the appointment of Klaus Holse Andersen as leader of the Microsoft Vedbaek campus and the opening of the Microsoft Technology Center for EMEA (Europe, Middle East, Africa) ISV Development in November 2004. The campus at Vedbaek continues to thrive, and Microsoft expects to add additional developers in 2005.

Of course, us cynics might note that this doesn't say that Mr. Gates didn't make the threat. That seems like an admission to me. It also doesn't say that they won't shut it down, if software patents are not allowed. It just says they have no current plans. They are, no doubt, expecting to be able to cram software patents down everyone's throat eventually, and I'd read this statement in that context.

That's the thing. When you lose people's trust, then when you speak, we don't listen even when you really, really want us to.

Here's a copy of an email that a VP at Microsoft in Denmark sent to all employees today, I'm told:

Dear all,

  You may have seen the front page article in Børsen today with the headline: Gates threatens to move Navision. The article outlines how the current EU disagreement over software patent protection endangers our development centre here in Vedbæk. Let me be very clear about this:  

Microsoft has absolutely no plans to move the centre.

We are completely committed to Vedbæk and its current location.  

The journalist has linked Microsoft’s known and outspoken attitude towards patent protection with some internal disagreements in EU regarding this software patent.  

Microsoft is very much in favour of software patent protection – we believe this is the only way to ensure innovation and development of state-of-the-art software. Bill Gates has spoken of this numerous times in different situations. And yes, he has also made our opinion very clear to the Danish government. Let there be no doubt that Microsoft believes patent protection is necessary in order to protect our innovative work. We will continue to argue in favour of this but it is not the only aspect which we consider when investing in R&D.  

If patents were the only thing determining where we locate our development sites then we would probably not have a site in China or in India.  

I just wanted to briefly reassure you – you have absolutely nothing to worry about in terms of Vedbæk’s future. We are in dialogue with the journalist whom we hope to be able to present a more nuanced picture of the situation to.  

Best regards,

Love the nuanced journalist bit.


  


Gates v. Denmark | 457 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:30 AM EST
He owns it, he could do whatever he wants with it! BUT, with such a threat they
should just say well we will move to open offcie from ms office in the goverment
organizasions. Thank you!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:37 AM EST
The obvious reply, would have been:

"Hey, that's actually interesting. That would free up a lot of highly
skilled IT professionals and we need those to help us migrate all the public IT
systems to Open Source solutions".

Poul-Henning

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: skuggi on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:37 AM EST
Now he is threatening the Danes.
Funny guy this Gates.

---
-Skuggi.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT here please
Authored by: fudisbad on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:39 AM EST
For current events, legal filings and 10-Ks. Please make links clickable.

---
See my bio for copyright details re: this post.
This subliminal message has been brought to you by Microsoft.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Corrections here please
Authored by: fudisbad on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:41 AM EST
To begin with:

-----8< QUOTE >8-----

The threat risks being executet, if part of the IT business manages to block the
disputed EU directive on patenting software, that Microsoft wants so dearly, but
time and time again has been postponed thanks to efficient lobbying by
anti-patent opposition.

-----8< QUOTE >8-----

Executed?

---
See my bio for copyright details re: this post.
This subliminal message has been brought to you by Microsoft.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Nice threat
Authored by: Anni on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:41 AM EST
If MS development projects have such IP problems even WITHOUT software patents
that they have to be shut down, maybe it is finally time to get rid of the whole
lot. For good.

Anni


---
Organic chemistry is the study of carbon compounds;
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Note to other countries
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:48 AM EST
This is how Freedom of Information should work. It means that government is
carried out in the open, without weasel "national interest" get-out
clauses. Congratulations to Denmark for having Freedom of Information laws that
are honoured in both the letter and the spirit.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Did he also say this to Ireland as well?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:49 AM EST
One has to wonder how many countries that Billy has visited and threatened?

I wonder if had ANY friends as a child growing up, or if all his friends where
just machines?

I think that Bill Gates would like to create his own anti-FOSS programmed Mr.
Smith.

The color of the pill you take is only a choice.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: inode_buddha on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:51 AM EST
Somebody needs to point out to Mr. Gates that he does *not* have an inherent right to freeze a software industry via patents for his company's benefit. Besides, isn't copyright enough?

I observed in conversation once that their known tactic is to destroy that which they cannot own or control, much like a temperamental 3-year-old.

And people think my tinfoil hat is too tight...

---
-inode_buddha
Copyright info in bio

"When we speak of free software,
we are referring to freedom, not price"
-- Richard M. Stallman

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:51 AM EST
When the company starts threatening governments (as they also did in Asia) then
you know MS have not only lost the plot, but buried it completely and thrown
away the map.

What IDIOT threatens a national government with withdrawal of services? The
Prime Ministers and other Heads of Governments I know of (Blair excluded) would
respond poorly if Gates had said that to them. I could imagine them easily
replying: "Good, that will free up resources for when our offices move to
Linux."

The Banjo

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Pogue Mahone on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:03 AM EST
"If I am to keep my development center in Denmark, I must have clearity on the rights issue. Otherwise I will move to the US, where I can protect my rights," said Gates

I have never heard a bigger load of baloney in all my life. It doesn't matter one teensy bit where the software is or was developed; if it has patent protection in the US, then infringing those patents in the US is unlawful, no matter where the software was developed. Conversely, moving the development to the US wouldn't magically give the software patent protection in the EU.

Get your act together, Bill. Sound's like you've lost the plot.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: eric76 on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:04 AM EST
So he's going to move development operations to the U.S. if the EU doesn't have
software patents.

I wonder if they have software patents are in India, China, and other countries
used for off-shore development.

[ Reply to This | # ]

How would moving change anything?
Authored by: cricketjeff on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:13 AM EST
You can apply for a US patent from Europe, and Europeans can read them and if
they aren't patentable in Europe use any information contained therein freely.
It doesn't matter if the development is in Denmark the USA or on Pluto.
On the other hand a convicted monopolist atempting to dictate public policy
should help the open software movement enormously, if Gates had the brains he
was born with he'd have said he would move the jobs to any European country
supporting his bill that way he would get a double whammy.
Of course the best chance is he'll move the jobs away from Europe anyway to
another region where software patents aren't allowed either, but where the
programmers are cheaper because keeping his word isn't exactly a strong suit for
him.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:16 AM EST
I can't help but wonder if BG ever heard the word "No."
while he was growing up, not that that ever happened as
far as I can tell.

What an immature individual. Absolutely disgusting.

Sounds like my 6 year old grandson, but there is hope for
him.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: urzumph on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:20 AM EST
If I was Denmark, I'd take this opertunity to bail right now.
Having used Navision, it's _blatantly_ obvious it was designed and built
_before_ being bought by Microsoft, rather than after. I'd say that, with Bill
at the helm, It's in for a sad future.

(The un-official motto of the, flopped, Asheron's Call 2 game, 'This time, billy
wanted to help')

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Poland?
Authored by: NoDough on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:23 AM EST
Wow. This kind of makes me wonder what made Poland back off.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • JURI - Authored by: PolR on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:06 AM EST
Gates v. U.S.
Authored by: clark_kent on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:34 AM EST
Is there any way we can make Microsoft leave the U.S.? Like send them to Mars or
something?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark, more of original article
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:47 AM EST
There was a little more in the original article that was not translated, which
might interest you ....

<Danish>
Men efter mødet med Bill Gates i november sagde videnskabsminister Helge Sander
i et interview med dagbladet Børsen:

»Vi oplever gang på gang, at viden er meget let at flytte med, og derfor skal
man hele tiden være opmærksom på, at et selskab som Microsoft også kan flytte
viden fra Danmark rundt i verden. Når en så stor virksomhed placerer sin største
udviklingsafdeling uden for USA i Danmark, og så følger op med endnu flere
investeringer, er det noget, vi fra det offentlige skal honorere.«

Bendt Bendtsen har i ministerrådet stemt for softwarepatentdirektivet, og
regeringen har længe før Bill Gates' besøg i Danmark været positivt stemt over
for ideen om at harmonisere den del af patentlovgivningen.

Samme holdning har Karin Riis Jørgensen (V), der er næstformand for den liberale
gruppe i Europa-Parlamentet.

Lukket møde

I forrige uge deltog hun i et lukket møde i organisationen European Internet
Foundation, hvor Bill Gates talte. Og ifølge Karin Riis Jørgensen var beskeden
fra Microsoft-stifteren lige så klar i forrige uge som på mødet med de danske
ministre i november. Nemlig den, at Microsoft smækkede kassen i for
investeringer i EU-lande, hvis det ikke bliver muligt at tage patent på
software.

</Danish>

After the meeting with Bill Gates in November the Minister of Science Helge
Sander said in an interview with the newspaper Børsen:

"Again and again we see that knowledge is easily transportable, and
therefore one has to be aware that a company like Microsoft can move knowledge
[sic. activities] from Denmark out into the world. When a large company has its
largest development organisation out outside of the US in Denmark, there are
investments that follow, and that is something that we in the public sector must
acknowledge."

Bendt Bendsen voted for the software patent directive in the council of
ministers, and the government has been positive about the idea of harmonising
that part of the patent law, long before Bill Gate's visit in Denmark.

Karin Riis Jørgensen (from the party Ventre), who is the vice president for the
liberal group in the European parliament has the same attitude.

Last week she participated in a closed meeting in the European Internet
Foundation, where Bill Gates spoke. According to Karin Riss Jørgensen the
message from the Microsoft founder was just as clear last week as it was in the
meeting with the Danish ministers in November. More precisely, Microsoft will
discontinue investments in EU countries, if it is not possible to patent
software.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:57 AM EST
MARCELLUS

Let's follow; 'tis not fit thus to obey him.

HORATIO

Have after. To what issue will this come?

MARCELLUS

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

HORATIO

Heaven will direct it.

MARCELLUS

Nay, let's follow him.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: muswell100 on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:08 AM EST
  • Danegeld - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:20 AM EST
  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:42 AM EST
Gates an old hand at this
Authored by: rcbixler on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:59 AM EST
I recall that Gates made a similar threat during the US
anti-trust case after Judge Jackson came out with his
findings of fact and urged both sides to negotiate a
settlement before he imposed one. During the ensuing
negotiations, at one point he threatened to withdraw
Windows from the market. The threat was repeated in
testimony before Judge Kollar-Kotely (sp?) regarding
whether she should approve the US DOJ v. Microsoft
settlement (whence the word "seattlement" was coined.)

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Missed opportunity - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 03:32 AM EST
On second thought
Authored by: rjamestaylor on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:02 AM EST
Bill Gates' threat to move Navision's base to the US out of Denmark over the issue of IP rights sounds pretty similiar to Debian's Non-US apt repositories (where one can obtain items of questionable status in the US) and Alan Cox's decision to resign from the Usenix ALS committee and to declare the US unsafe to visit due to the DMCA. That is, when confronted with legislation deemed harmful or undesirable to one's mission, expatriation is a tactic both Free/Non-Free methodologies use.

Granted, the idea of removing 800 jobs carries a bigger impact to the common person than the loss of Alan Cox in the US, but that's just quantity versus quality.

---
SCO delenda est! Salt their fields!

[ Reply to This | # ]

What is the ratio between the money invested and drained out by Microsoft?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:10 AM EST
What I'm really interested in, is the ratio between the money that Microsoft
invests in Denmark, and the money it drains out as licensing fees?
Maybe it would be a good deal for Denmark to let them out and switch to
OpenOffice/Linux or something like this.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:23 AM EST
Seams to me that Bill G. is walking a fine line around, maybe over the FCPA
(Foreign Corrupt Practices Act)?

http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/fcpastat.htm

Check out "(i) Alternative Jurisdiction" which covers Gate's
behavior overseas. (Illegal for US citizens to commit these types of acts
anywhere in the world.)

Several paragraphs cover "retaining business", and "any foreign
political party"..

I.E. Do what I say, or we will fire a whole lot of employees, blame it on
you (PM) and your political party.

Felony.. 5 to 20 years..

[ Reply to This | # ]

India and IBM
Authored by: dkpatrick on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:28 AM EST
In a similar vein, decades ago IBM left India because the law said that local
interests were to have a majority interest in subsidiary companies. This was
anathema to IBM at the time. IBM closed their subsidiaries and other
manufacturers thrived as a result. IBM re-entered the Indian market.

Microsoft's statements are clearly extortionate. It would serve the EU to
consider WHY they use Microsoft products if they are making a deal with the
devil to do so.

---
"Keep your friends close but your enemies closer!" -- Sun Tzu

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:30 AM EST
You'd really think that he'd at least try to make a serious threat. I mean, come
on - 800 jobs? Even for a comparatively small country (Denmark has about 5,4
million inhabitants), that's not that much (about 0.0148% of the total
population).

[ Reply to This | # ]

An interesting lesson in economics
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:39 AM EST
Microsoft have attempted many of the tactics that a true monopoly is supposed to
be able to employ to maintain its position. These include undercutting
competitors on price and threats such as these. Without government protection
to create barriers to entry for competitors, a coersive monopoly is not
possible. The only monopoly that can be sustained without that support is one
that is based on economies of scale, where the monopolist's average cost per
unit is driven down by high volume.

Software should be one of the best natural monopolies possible. The cost of
developing and testing the code is a one-time cost for any given release. The
cost of producing another unit is extremely low. Yet the behavior we are seeing
from Gates and Balmer tells us clearly that they know their pricing model and
cost structure aren't in line with an economy of scale. They don't believe they
can maintain their position by competing on the basis of price, quality and
features.

The reasons are plain for all the world to see. Windows and Office are
overpriced at retail. The only thing holding up their volume is the fact that
they are both sold at a discount to multiple customer bases. The biggest is
probably the people who get them bundled with new hardware. They have
deliberately created a lock-in strategy of incompatible, proprietary file
formats. They don't believe their customers will stay otherwise when they can
leave for OpenOffice with next to no effort and Linux for less trouble than
reinstalling Windows.

Microsoft's quality is notoriously poor. Their security flaws are widely
regarded to be design flaws. You don't fix those with patches. Once you expose
and API, people are going to use it. Turning it off because it is insecure by
design is going to break software people are using.

Microsoft have exactly three features that the open source community can't
match. Their software supports its own file formats better. Of course, the
current version of Office doesn't support earlier Office formats better than
open source. Windows runs apps that Linux doesn't. Even when there are open
source competitors available for the apps, there is a cost to converting. Their
software supports its own security-flawed APIs better.

The common ground on all three of Microsoft's advantages is lock-in. It keeps
customers from defecting. However, it is self-defeating. Microsoft must
maintain lock-in and there are significant costs to doing so. Open source has
none of those costs because it doesn't have to maintain lock-in. It is based on
a model that has abandoned that strategy. Microsoft are very, very scared.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Go ahead, Denmark, be a sucker. Take that bait.
Authored by: Jude on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:41 AM EST
If you give in to this one, you will just make Microsoft more powerful. The
next time they want something, it will be bigger and it will be more difficult
to deny. Eventually, you will have surrendered your sovereignty to Microsoft.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:48 AM EST
The Danes could handle Nazi occupation ... I don't think they'll bat an eye at
Gates.

[ Reply to This | # ]

How I'd Respond
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:48 AM EST
If I represent the government of Denmark and some US company threatened me on my
turf. First I'd have to resist the temptation to reach across the table and
slap the stupid right off his arrogant face.

After a moment of going to a happy place and centering I'd calmly explain that
would be fine with us. We'll take the building and displaced workers and make
it a Linux development center and subsidize the development of the European
software equivalent of Airbus. Their first big contract would be overseeing the
transition of government systems to open source products. And finance the whole
thing by boosting the taxes on US software products. Let them whine to the
world court. That would take what? A year? Two?

Anything else, Mr. Gates? I suppose if I were really in the mood to make a
statement I'd have our Air Force escort his plane out of our air space for
safety. And make sure the planes are carrying white ones (war shot).

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Also ... - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:01 AM EST
    • Also ... - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:43 AM EST
      • Also ... - Authored by: frk3 on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 01:52 PM EST
      • Also ... - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 03:53 PM EST
        • Also ... - Authored by: eskild on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:04 PM EST
  • How I'd Respond - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:37 AM EST
  • How I'd Respond - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:49 AM EST
Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:48 AM EST

Heh. Makes you wish you were a Danish government official. Wonder what the Danish is for:

``We think our programmers can excel no matter what company they're working for. Even a Denmark-based Open Source company. Now... will you be needing any help packing up the office supplies?''

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:24 AM EST
  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 04:45 AM EST
Two Alternative Realities
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:49 AM EST
1-Patenting of Software Fails in Europe

Unlike the SCO debacle, an assault on patents in the US can WIN. If so Linuxs
days are numbered in the US and so as not to break any US patent laws Linus will
be forced to move back to Finland (sorry about that). Where development of Linux
will continue.The brightest minds in computing(outside of the United States that
is) will rally around Linux where it will become the defacto standard.

2-Patenting of Software Suceeds in Europe

Unlike the SCO debacle, an assault on patents in the US can WIN. If so Linuxs
days are numbered in the US. The defeat of Linux in the US will be followed by
it's defeat in Europe. Linux Torvald will move back to Findland(sorry about
that) to becomine a Skiing instructor, and a footnote in the history of
computing.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Backfired!
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:59 AM EST
The danish Social Democrats just denounced Gates' threats in a press release. The social democrats control whether software patents have a majority or not in the danish parliament.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Mr Gates is simply bluffing
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:59 AM EST
"If I am to keep my development center in Denmark, I must have clearity on
the rights issue. Otherwise I will move to the US, where I can protect my
rights."

If I understand patent law, Mr. Gates' software patents in the US are not
enforceable or valid in the EU - why else lobby for the introduction of software
patents in the EU?

So, I fail to see how moving Navision to the US will help Mr. Gates protect his
rights in the EU. Sure, he can get software patents in the US, he can do that
today if he wants - but those will not apply for the EU anyway. His alternative,
IMHO, is simply bluff.

What both the US and the EU can offer Mr. Gates is of course copyrights - but I
guess that is not the rights issue he is worried about!

As a side note, Mr. Gates and the current danish govenment seem to go
hand-in-hand. When Microsoft introduced the "office XML" (i.e. saving
Word and Excel files in XML format), danish media covered the story as if the
danish govenment had somehow forced Microsoft to use open file formats (what a
nice David vs Goliath angle, eh!). So Mr. Gates probably feels they owe him a
favor, and the largest party of the govenment (Venstre) is a strong supporter of
software patents in the EU, so ... you do the math.

./ Kristoffer

[ Reply to This | # ]

Dear Mr. Gates
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:02 AM EST
Hello Mr Gates

Tis the 21st century and if you want me to continue to use your products it is
imperetive that you join the new ways in which software is being developed.
Secifically, the Open Source method a method that relies on industry, developer
and user collabaration to produce quality software. The proprietary method which
your company now uses develops it's software in secrecy as if it is something to
covet and not a tool that is shared for the benefit of those that use your
products.

Microsoft it seems to be spending more time and energy in slowing the growth of
the Open Source method. A company that resorts to threats and misinformation to
maintain it's monopoly market share is doing it out of greed. While it should be
encouraging true innovation in software development and products conforming to
open standards. Imagine what benefit Microsoft could bring to the Open Source
table. I currently use several Open Source products on my MS Windows machine due
to cost constraints and most of them are superior to propretary products.

Your Company's Operating System direly needs help with security which I'm sure
the Open Source community could assist Microsoft in alleveating this threat.
It's time to give something back to the community that has made you and your
company so wealthy.

I had this pair of shoes that I really liked and i wore them everywhere.
However, my daughters told me they were old looking and out of style. So they
dragged me to a shoe store to get a new pair. Well at first they were a bit
uncomfortable but I committed myself to wearing them and wouldn't you know it
they are now my favorite pair of shoes.

Well, Mr. Gates I personally challenge you to try on a new pair of shoes. No,
I'm not going to drag you to a shoe store instead I challenge Microsoft to
sponsor an Open Source Project using a FOSS approved license. You may find out
you like your new shoes!

Sincerely

vegas_t

[ Reply to This | # ]

The latest chapter in...
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:02 AM EST
Bill Gates' "How to Win Friends and Influence People"! PJ, I still
rely on one computer program (my most important) that runs under windoze. Once
that is ported to Linux (the next release) I can return to Dale Carnegie's
publication.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Translation at NoSoftwarePatents.com
Authored by: frank687 on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:03 AM EST
(EN) 15 FEB 05: Danish newspaper reports on Microsoft threat

This appears to be a full tranlation of the article

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Europe -- A One-Act Play by Me
Authored by: Matt C on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:08 AM EST
Europe: We kinda want to use Linux 'cause we would like to keep tech jobs here
and not be locked-in to an overseas vendor. We'd kinda like to have our own open
source software industry.
Gates: Then we shall sue the pants off of any Linux contributors we can find for
software patent infringements.
Europe: Not if we don't have American-style software patents here.
Gates: Well you should get them.
Europe: I dunno...
Gates: Fine, then we're taking our tech jobs overseas.

European governments, it's official: There is NOTHING to think about. Every day
you wait just makes the switch more expensive -- and NO LESS INEVITABLE.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Hey, EU, take a look!
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:13 AM EST
Hey EU,

When you are locked-in into a certain (software) company, they can make
outrageous threats. This is why it is important to push open standards and why
caution should be displayed with regard to software patents.

One possible solution you can take, is make use of Open Source Software for as
much critical systems and software you are using.

After all, if these people are threatening Denmark like this now, what will they
think of next?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Totally wrong!?
Authored by: Vaino Vaher on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:14 AM EST
Hmm. I may have had one coffee too many today, but isn't this how it works:
- Danish companies can apply for (software related) patents in the US, even if
the development is done in Denmark.
- Moving software development from Denmark to US doesn't improve the creator's
situation one iota, since they still can't apply for European software patents.

So Bills claim that moving the jobs to US will secure his IP is only a
halucination. Maybe he's got an attack of Malaria?

It is kind of stupid to disguise a threat in the cloak of lies. Too easy for
people to see though!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:37 AM EST
I'm told that in the UK, if we get software patents, then I can still program
any algorithm I want in the confines of my own house without fear of
prosecution. So that's what I'll do.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:46 AM EST
Bill, you may copyright your software. In fact, everybody's writings are
copyright until 50 years after they die. Mine too. I have no wish to copy your
software, unless or until you say I may.
<p>However, if you wish to patent your software in Denmark, you should
persuade the majority of voters in Denmark that allowing patents on software
would be a good idea. Some will think it good; some will think it bad.
<p>You should not lean on elected officials. It's bad form

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: steelneck on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:55 AM EST

Nosoftwarepatents has written an Open letter to Navision's Danish employees

[ Reply to This | # ]

Reversal of an historic phrase
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:11 AM EST
You know, the one Kipling so memorably described:
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
I used to think of this as Kipling on MS Enterprise Licensing, but I see now I underestimated the scope of his vison. Needs someone with a better ear than mine to restate it.

martin

[ Reply to This | # ]

But they are not skilled jobs
Authored by: Chris Lingard on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:11 AM EST

The jobs that companies such as Microsoft provide in Europe are the non skilled stuff; like packing cardboard boxes. The skilled development work will remain in the USA. The sooner that polititions learn that throwing Microsoft out would create wealth and jobs locally.

The European offices are there solely for the foreign companies benefits. In difficult times they are closed. I doubt if much research is now done on Navision's product line. The work will be administrative; and to provide support in Danish; to give customers the false feeling that this is a native company.

All profits and license fees disappear from the Danish economy.

If work is done on open source systems; then the money stays in the local economy; and skilled jobs are created.

[ Reply to This | # ]

He'll do it anyway
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:14 AM EST
What incentive is there for kidnappers to return the victim alive?
Gates will get what he wants from Toads like Patrica Hewitt (uk minister for
obeying rich foriegn dudes) and then he'll move to India.
Just like terrorists - if you give in to Blackamil and Extortion - THEY WILL DO
IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.
Except after the Bill passes he'll be able to say that he won't let any of
Europes Businesses do anything as he holds enough patents to turn the lights out
in Eurasia.
Enlightned Self Interest? You'll burn in Hell Gates and No charity donations
will help.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Micro Reich
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:26 AM EST
A lot of European People Died fighting this sort of Bullying.
Gates just drew the line in the sand.
Over the Past few months my faith in the EU as a democratic organisation has
been totally undermined by the Council of Ministers.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:31 AM EST
Hey Troll Dude, you fagging for Bill or what?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates can dive right back
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:32 AM EST
... into the dumpster where he once upon a time found his own
"inspiration" (IP) and wallow in his preciouss software the rest of us
throw in there.

It really begins to feel like it's time to put out the MS garbage instead of
putting up with this Knighted Windbag Diva.

Phew!

-Roland

[ Reply to This | # ]

So that's why MS hasn't attacked Linux with patents yet.
Authored by: kawabago on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:33 AM EST
Microsoft won't attack until the issue is settled in Europe. To do so would
prove to the EU that software patents will be used to crush competition and
maintain the illegal monopoly. Is the EU economy larger than the US yet? Maybe
the EU should start pressuring the US to legislate software patents out of
existence? There would certainly be plenty of support for it in the US and
outside it.

---
Life is funnier from the far end.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: blacklight on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:33 AM EST
In general:

(1) You don't give in to extortion when the most likely consequence to
successful extortion will be more extortion attempts;

(2) You don't give in to blackmail when the most likely consequence of
successful blackmail will be more blackmail attempts;

(3) You don't give in to hostage takers when the most likely consequence of
giving in will be more hostage taking.


If BG succeeds in using the Navision installation as a trump card, rest assured
that he'll do it again when he wants something else - You will simply not have
heard the last of him.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 01:10 PM EST
Not illegal?
Authored by: Eagle on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:42 AM EST
Morality and sound business sense aside, there are two main points of interest (considering that this site has "law" -and even, somewhat appropriately in this case, "grok" as well- in its name):
  • Is it extortion (or any other crime or offense) under Danish law?
    Does this expose Microsoft (or Gates, or his Danish lawyer or management etc.) to any liability under Danish or EU law?
  • Are there any prohibitions in the U.S. against the coercion of foreign governments by American corporations?
    Does this definitely not provide any grounds for liability in the U.S. as well?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Tell the media
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:49 AM EST
This story should have a good chance to get some mainstream media coverage in
Europe.

Remember the pro-patent lobby's favorite spin about how software patents are
necessary to help European businesses and inventors compete with their American
competitors.

Contrast this with Bill Gates threatening the Danish Government if they don't
drop their opposition to software patents. Why would an American software giant
violently push for legislation that was supposed to help Europeans compete with
Americans?

And finally compare with Mr Gates own remark from 1994, which clearly explains
his real motives in this question:

"If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today’s
ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a
complete stand-still today. The solution [...] is patent exchanges [...] and
patenting as much as we can. [...] A future start-up with no patents of its own
will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose. That price
might be high: Established companies have an interest in excluding future
competitors.”

Fred Warshofsky, The Patent Wars 170-71 (NY: Wiley 1994).

[ Reply to This | # ]

"excluding future competitors"
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 11:50 AM EST
Bill Gates said : "If people had understood how patents would be granted
when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry
would be at a complete standstill today. ... The solution is patenting as much
as we can. A future startup with no patents of its own will be forced to pay
whatever price the giants choose to impose. That price might be high.
Established companies have an interest in excluding future competitors."

This was quoted by Fred Warshofsky in "The Patent Wars" of 1994. The
text is from an internal memo written by Bill Gates to his staff. Part of has
appeared in another Gates memos.

from
http://swpat.ffii.org/vreji/quotes/index.en.html#bgates91

[ Reply to This | # ]

Why is there outrage on this?
Authored by: stingbot on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 12:06 PM EST

If a company "believes" that it cannot exist without patent laws, it
has to act this way. I just hope Denmark calls his cards. Losing experienced
developers always hurts.

Now whether or not you agree with patents and the way they are being written for
software is a different story. It's pretty easy to see when patents are being
used to shake down businesses and not to provide a boost to a company that has
innovation.

Hopefully the EU can provide a roadmap for software patent law reform.

If I were king, I would allow software patents. They would expire in 8 years
and licenses would legally follow a depreciation scale after the 4th year. They
would require code and architetual documents and the company would have to
actively be developing a product that used the patent to be able to enforce it.
The product would have to be available by the second year or depreciation of
licensing would start then.


[ Reply to This | # ]

Bigger Picture???
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 12:07 PM EST
PJ, you should really write a book about all of this some time.
So much going on. International intrigue, court room drama,
company secrets so dark that people die, big multinational
corporations corrupting governments, etc. Wow! And its all
about free and open software!!!

Hmm, perhaps if the stakes are so high, there really is some
really bad stuff going on that is just waiting to see the
light of day.

Wow!
:)

[ Reply to This | # ]

MS denial
Authored by: AdamBaker on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 12:19 PM EST
I guess MS are taking a lot of stick over this as they have bothered with an official denial as reported here. I'll leave it up to you to judge whether this falls into the category of "it's only true when the official denial is issued".

[ Reply to This | # ]

Oh well! Looks like Bill hasn't learned everything...
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 12:21 PM EST
After two convictions as an abusive monopoly on two different continents, Bill might have learned a thing or two. For starters, don't throw a tantrum in front of the cameras.

Next, don't strong arm governments.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Legal Question: Would their location matter to Gates?
Authored by: GLJason on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 12:30 PM EST
I thought that you had to get a patent in each country in order to protect your ideas. We have a treaty that extends copyright across national boundaries, but it doesn't cover patents. I listented to a Science Friday all about patents and one of the inventors that was on the show said that they had to get patents in all the other countries as well.

If this is the case, then where the invention is created wouldn't matter. If they don't have software patents in Europe and it is created in Europe, Gates can still patent it in the U.S. Threatening the move of 800 people out of the country has no other purpose than to intimidate and coerce.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Call In The Spin Doctors
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 12:32 PM EST
Fallout predictions:

- Gates will claim he was misunderstood and do his best to call the PM a liar
without calling him a liar.

- Further sanctions against Microsoft and possibly a potential boycott from the
European community

This is a serious blackeye for Microsoft. There attempt to remake their image
from monopolistic 800-lb gorilla to cooperating industry leader just took a
major hit.

American's won't care (as per usual) but the Europeans will take this to heart.
I foresee Windows getting slowly extinguished in businesses in Europe over the
next 10 years.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: sonicfrog on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 12:34 PM EST
What a PR nightmare this company is creating for itself. How can BG and Co.
possibly not think these kind of bald faced threats would become public? I am
not one to denigrate M$ products; lets face it XP IS a pretty slick piece of
software. It does allot of things very well. But it also does some things very
poorly, like be secure!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 12:38 PM EST
Hm. I skimmed through all the main articles, but nobody seems to notice that he
is just bluffing, so I'll try to point it out:

You have a sophisticated and highly complex product which nobody at Microsoft
has the slightest knowledge of (otherwise they wouldn't have bought it).

And now the threat is to get rid of every single developer of that product, take
the source code and the valuable (haha) IP-rights, and put several hundred
developers in the U.S. at work on that product? I'm laughing my hat off!

Or is the plan to resettle the majority of 800 developers with their families
from Denmark to the U.S.? Who does he think he is? Moses? Oh, well Microsoft
would have the money to double their income, but they could just as well stay,
found a new company in the same building and offer "support" for
Navision (*cough*).

TToni

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 01:04 PM EST
  • Bluffing? - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 02:27 PM EST
Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 12:46 PM EST
In 1940 the Danish government, under Nazi occupation honorably managed to
negociate an "opt-out" for Denmark's 7,000 Jews from the barbaric
extermination continuing elsewhere in Europe. When Hitler ordered that all
Danish Jews must wear yellow stars, the King of Denmark reportedly declared
"then so shall I" and as popular legend has it, non-Jewish Danes
followed their King's lead so that the Germans couldn't distinguish Jew from
non-Jew there. The result was that of the 7,000, "only" 219
disappeared (though of course that is still 219 too many).

When Florian Muller of nosoftwarepatents.com accused the other side of being
"Nazis", I initially thought that he went a bit far by stooping to the
name-calling started by Bill Gates and his well documented communist jibe
directed at us. (As Richard Stallman has pointed out, the very existence of the
open protocol-based Internet we have today is due to those arch-communists - the
US Department of Defense who incidentally also sponsored the "commie"
FreeBSD project to help beef up FreeBSD's security for government use).

Now in 2005, we see Bill Gates threatening to "export" 800 Danish
citizens unless the Danes agree to "label" software as liable for
persecution. So Florian, you were right and I apologise for doubting you.

If I know the plucky Danes, they will get those yellow stars out again (of which
plenty are contained within Mandrake Linux :-). Even the smallest among us can
make a difference with a heart and the Danes have big hearts - indeed a heart is
the offical logo of Copenhagen!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Some choice PJ... but maybe some day
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 12:48 PM EST
Not exactly.

"Thanks to Richard Stallman and his GNU Project, Linus Torvalds, and
thousands and thousands of good-hearted and skilled programmers who cared enough
to give the world some very fine software, you actually do have a choice. If
enough companies, individuals, and governments make that choice, this kind of
bullying would be so over."

I'm in love with the idea of OSS and all, and thanks to them I may someday have
a choice. God bless 'em all.

But today I need to use Photoshop (Gimp color management isn't...), I need to
capture raw images using PhaseOne... I find Dreamweaver very useful still...
etc. etc.

The only actual choices I have today are Mac and Windows.

What does it matter? In the big sense of course "thank you" OSS for
someday giving me an alternative, and perhaps for putting a little pressure on
MS already. But choice? For most of us, that day isn't here, and your words
sound like you are selling something that isn't real...

Not yet.

Peace.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Bullying
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 01:19 PM EST
This kind of bullying is precisely why we need the EU. When Bill Gates tries it
on the government of an affluent but small country (or even, I imagine, a much
bigger country), it must be hard for politicians fearing they might get the
blame in the mainstream press if a threat were carried out. When it's Uncle Sam
doing the bullying, or when it's M$ together with other powerful economic
interests (as seems likely in this case), only the EU is really big enough not
to come off worst by standing up to them.

Of course the flip side is when we (both US and EU) bully third world countries.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Way to go Bill !!!
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 01:48 PM EST
Fantastic. Way to go Bill, that's the American way. If the other countries won't
protect your monopoly and stranglehold on business software, then by all means
let's let them know that here in the U.S. we support the right to protect a
monopoly. That's right. We here in the U.S. just don't care about Bill having a
monopoly and further protect his rights to produce a sub quality products since
the days of dos.

Half of America's products are sub quality and should be recalled. Just like my
brand new vehicle was this year.

We need the jobs here in the good ol USA. Removing thousands of viruses per
month as the infected machines crawl across the many thousands of US tech
benches nationwide. Whole corporate divisions and IT workers with the all
renowed full time MS patching job positions. But hey, at least they are MS
certified! Without this job security MS has created, along with the polluted
internet, there simply would be a crises in employment here in the U.S.

Keep up the American way bill. But I'm still using Linux.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 03:22 PM EST
In the interest of follow-up reporting, both the Navision Managing Director and the Prime Minister denies the story (links to later stories in danish in the same online newspaper).

But never let the truth interfere with a good story, as Mark Twain [allegedly] said...

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 04:10 PM EST
Prime Minister rejects that Gates put forward a threat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 03:27 PM EST

The Danish Broadcasting Corporation (Danmarks Radio) has the story:

Statsmin isteren afviser trussel fra Gates

"Statsminister Anders Fogh Rasmussen (V) afviser, at stifteren af verdens største softwarevirksomhed, Bill Gates, skulle have truet ham med at lukke Navision i Danmark og flytte de knap 800 udviklere bag Danmarks største software-succes til USA."

"- Det har han ikke gjort på noget møde med mig. Jeg kan slet ikke bekræfte den udlægning, slet ikke. Det har vi slet ikke været inde på. Nej, siger Anders Fogh Rasmussen til Ritzau."

"Statsministerens afvisning kommer, efter Børsen tirsdag kunne berette om Bill Gates' trussel, som skulle være kommet på et møde i november med Anders Fogh Rasmussen samt økonomi- og erhvervsminister Bendt Bendtsen (K) og videnskabsminister Helge Sander (V)."

"Truslen risikerede angiveligt at blive ført ud i livet, hvis det lykkedes dele af it-branchen at få blokeret et omstridt EU-direktiv om patenter på software, som Microsoft for alt i verden gerne vil have vedtaget, men som gang på gang er blevet forhalet takket være modstandernes effektive lobbyarbejde"

Which I translate to:

Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen (V) rejects that the founder of the worlds' largest software corporation, Bill Gates, should have threatened him with closing Navision in Denmark and moving short of 800 developers behind Denmark's greatest software success to the USA.

"- He has not done so in any meeting with me. I cannot confirm that version at all, not at all. We have not discussed that subject at all. No", says Anders Fogh Rasmussen to Ritzau.

The Prime Ministers' rejection follows a report by Børsen on Bill Gates' threat, which was apparently delivered in a meeting with Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Minister of Economic and Business Affairs Bendt Bendtsen (K), and Minister of Science, Technology and Innovation Helge Sander (V).

The threat was apparently to be executed should certain parts of the IT business succeed in blocking a controversial EU-directive on software patents - a directive that Microsoft would do anything in the world to get accepted, but which has been delayed time and again thanks to effective lobbying by opponents of the directive.

I did my best with the translation. ;-)

./ Kristoffer

[ Reply to This | # ]

Micro$oft in denial
Authored by: Totosplatz on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 03:40 PM EST

CNET Article: Microsoft denies blackmail regarding EU, patents

---
All the best to one and all.

[ Reply to This | # ]

A Right!?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 04:01 PM EST

The author says:

Speaking of rights, you all have the right to stop using Microsoft software, you know.[emphasis mine]

I would say that we have an opportunity to stop using MS software, thanks to the aforementioned individuals. Calling it a right extends the situation to dangerous absurdity. For if it were a right, my research supervisor could not have firmly declared that "every machine I (my research funding) bought must run MS software exclusively." Others working in industry could tell their employer, "No, I'm going to use Linux and OpenOffice." and carry on working undisturbed.

But, my supervisor made life, um ... difficult ... when I expressed a desire to run Linux and LaTeX (the standard tools in my research domain) and tasked tech-support to reformat and reload the disks. Since I (unlike other students in my research group) can't afford both a fancy computer and grad school, I made the expedient choice [as your server log can attest]. In commerce, others run a real risk of coming down with unemployment if they assert this so-called "right" with an employer. The legal reality is that my supervisor and employers are the ones who have the right to insist that I and others use the tools they provide to get the job done. Otherwise, they have grounds for dismissal [IANAL].

Aside: It's possible that this is just an accidental slip; but, PJ et al. are usually careful and precise in their diction. Given their experiential background and the loaded nature of terms, I can't let this pass unchallenged.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Yes, A Right. - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 05:47 PM EST
    • Yes, A Right. - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 06:20 PM EST
Laughing stocks?
Authored by: erehwon on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 04:10 PM EST
I wonder whether His Royal Billness, or Steve "Kill them all, God will know
his own" Ballmer are able to spell, "egregious gaffe"?

First Indonesia, the Neiderland, the BeneLux countries, and now Denmark! Why on
Earth should we need Dr. Rice as our Secretary of State, when we have Bill and
Steve to serve as our public face to the world?

Erehwon

---
I'm old. I'm grumpy. Get over it.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 04:21 PM EST
PJ write: "Speaking of rights, you all have the right to stop using
Microsoft software, you know."

Um, no I don't. No I'm not FUDing linux, infact I would prefer to use it if I
could, but many of the software apps I'd like to use do no work in linux, do not
have a linux equivilent in quality/usability, do not work in wine, and some of
my hardware is not well supported in linux resulting in alot more lockups then I
get in windows, and a lot slower performance.

Linux has a long way to go, especially when developers of needed linux
applications/drivers answer bugs with "Works fine here" and "If
you found a bug, fix it and send me a patch" ... not all of us are
experienced programmers.

I use windows not by choice, but by necessity. I simply don't have the choice.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 04:42 PM EST
    • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 04:59 PM EST
      • Software MIDI - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 03:13 AM EST
  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 10:28 PM EST
Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 05:39 PM EST
http://conference.cti.dtu.dk/program.php

See the video stream of Marianne Weirs presentation on why Microsoft needed
patents. She is the "corporate affairs" responsible for MS Denmark.
She also reported the Gates quote to the newspaper.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 06:06 PM EST
You can get one of the 'Linux for Windows' CDs

http://home.btconnect.com/chrisandcarolyn/torrents/

and have a half-Linux-half-Windows desktop if you want, like
http://home.btconnect.com/chrisandcarolyn/k37qemu.png

Choice of ten of them, so far.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Todays Computer Users seem to lack a sense of history
Authored by: Hargoth on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 06:34 PM EST
Many people here (and elswhere) respond to thoughts of 'switching' to Linux by
stating that applications that they need do not exist on Linux.

Please try to consider that there was a time when none of the current Windows
based applications existed. In those early days of computing we were able to
produce some very fine work, indeed. A GUI is not even necessary to do
meaningful work on the computer.

What has happened as a result of the proliferation of GUI centric applications
and the Windows OS is that new programmers have no real idea as to how things
work under the hood. They plug away using tools that do the actual code
generation for them, thus locking their potential customers into a platform.
Most programmers that use Microsoft Studio and other Windows oriented developer
tools do not know how to adust the default settings for ansi compatability,
portability, or whatever. The same programmers were never told that their
ignorance of the community at large is forcing their potential customers into a
specific platform.

Over the years, management comes and goes and programmer turnover is often
heavy, thus not only perpetuating the basic ignorance to other institutions, but
as programmers become management they often dictate policies based upon their
own self promoting ignorances.

Microsoft has promoted ignorance by using unpublished APIs as the defaults for
their programming tools, and by monopolist practices which force the
proliferation of their platform.

If the programming staff at Adobe had remembered its roots, and required its
programmers to adjust their tools to produce standards compliant code, then the
ports to Linux would be a simple rebuild with alternative libraries instead of
the nightmare it is now with a nearly complete seperate branch of the code.

You do know that Adobe Photoshop has roots in UNIX and may still offer a Solaris
version? But management is what it is in our times, and we all suffer from the
enforced and promoted ignorance of software development.

Think outside of the GUI.

However, the same types of ignorance exists STRONGLY in the Linux community. A
great many Linux programmers have had no exposure to compilers other than gcc.
Lets face it. gcc is a fantastic tool and has changed the world. But when we
think that gcc is everything, and we ASSUME that ansi compliance on Linux is the
same as HP/UX or FreeBSD, then we will have troubles porting from Linux to other
platforms, and even from one version of Linux to another.

Educating programmers, and even more importantly, programmer management, is the
first step in getting applications that you need to run anywhere. Good
programmers write portable code, and are careful of what their development tools
produce. Vendors with a forced marketplace do not see the need for portability
or standards compliance and will not even check to see what their tools
generate, except that it runs on Windows.

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Bad Billy Bluffer - and the Rebellion Against the Empire...
Authored by: sproggit on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 06:34 PM EST
You know, a little while ago the US government presided over by Bill Clinton decided to take MS to court over their numerous questionable business practices. Coincidences being what they are, the star litigator there was David Boies, hailed as a hero at the time by the Anti-MS camps for having the bottle to take on mighty MS.

Well, then an election happened, and maybe some campaign contributions changed hands. Whatever the real story, the incoming Bush Administration helped the case to Go Away.

But at the time an interesting thing happened. When it looked as though the US government was not going to back down, Bill Gates tried an interesting tactic. In a blaze of publicity he travelled to the UK and held meetings with Tony Blair. He visited Cambridge [home of the UKs high-tech industry] and made a big deal about how wonderful it would be to extend his UK operation from merely R&D to something much bigger.

Then he went back to the US and basically told the US Government that if they didn't make the case disappear he would "up sticks" and move his company to the UK. The threat being that the US would lose the jobs and the Corporation Tax dollar revenue as Microsoft would no longer be "headqurtered" in the US.

Now, we don't know if such a threat worked or not. Whatever happened, the case was disappeared by the incoming Bush people. But the pattern is familiar.

If Bill doesn't get what he wants, he threatens, and threatens hard. He picks something that he thinks will hurt his target. Governments don't like losing jobs. Certain politicians don't like losing their "lobbying fees". But at the end of the day, all the guy can do is threaten.

That's all he's got. The rants and the raves are getting more frequent and more widespread and more desperate for a very good reason.

These isolated incidents of Rebellion Against the Empire, if left un-checked, threaten to spread like wildfire and bring down the entire, illusionary, house of cards.Noone can deny that stories like this are becoming more frequent and more serious. China, Malaysia, Denmark, Brazil, Taiwain, and so it goes on. This could easily be the beginning of the end of the Microsoft Monopoly. Brought down in the end not by the application of US justice, but by millions of individuals, exercising their rights to freedom.



Hey, wildly off-topic thought for you. How about a reworking of the 1977 Classic, "Star Wars", with the current Open Source struggle as the sub-plot?

Bad Boy Billy would of course, have to be the Emperor. Steve Ballmer, with that haircut, would have to be Darth Ballmer [Daft Ballmer anyone?]. Linus, of course, would have to be Luke [Linus] Skywalker. That means that perhaps we could get RMS to be Obi-Wan Kenobi [but with that beard, he might prefer to be Chewbaca!].

Of course we have our heroine playing Princess Leia [being PJ, since none other could hope to take that role].

Now in the final scene where Our Heroes attack the Death Star [Longhorn] Linus Skywalker has some powerful assistance. There's Biggs and Wedge for starters - Andrew Morton and Miguel de Icaza anyone?

But we're going to need a Han Solo. Can anyone suggest a suitable candidate. Has to be a good choice though - the Millenium Falcon rocks and we'd all want an Open Source ship of that power in safe hands...

We also need to find a role in this story of ours for IBM. Perhaps they have a network of powerful but hidden space stations, used to provide fuel, support and sustenance to the fledgling rebellion, to upgrade their ships with donations of technology and support.

And then there is the loathsome Jabba the Hutt McBride. A vile, unpleasant [and probably odourous] creature from some dark, disgusting swamp at the nasty end of the universe.

That universe is obviously a treacherous place for the unwary, full of Bounty Hunters willing to sell themselves and their services to the highest bidder, such as the deadly and ruthless Bobba diDio Fett.

And what did we do with our Yoda?

In episodes I, II and II of our saga, the Open Source Jedi were slowly hunted down to the point of extinction by the ruthless, proprietary, Empire. Fortunately, the saviour of freedom [Linus Skywalker] had been carefully hidden away to develop his awesome skills away from the prying eyes of the Evil Empire. But in episodes IV, V and VI the innate quality of truth, the undeniable purity of purpose and the sheer power of simplicity proved to be too much for the best that the Empire could assemble.



OK, think I'm gonna stop now. The parallels here are getting too spooky to conteplate. Feel free to finish off the story though...


"The more you tighten your grasp, the more Star Systems will slip through your fingers..."

Princess Leia to Moff Tarken, Star Wars IV, A New Hope.


I think I kinda like the idea of being an "Open Source Jedi". Maybe this will catch on?


In the true spirit of Open Source, PJ is free to use anything in this post in her own work. If any other reader would like to take a refine, extend or redevelop the ideas here, please feel free to do so, with the usual requirement that any such work, if distributed, must be offered free of copyright or fee.


sproggit

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Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 06:35 PM EST
We've seen plenty of companies making similar threats that arent at all relavent
to thier location with regard to UCITIA passage too.

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Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 06:56 PM EST
http://www.eifonline.org/site/index.cfm?BID=16&SID=1&LG=2&HOMEP=1

Gates at the EIF meeting (a MEP organisation)

"Karin Riis Jørgensen (from the party Ventre), who is the vice president
for the
liberal group in the European parliament has the same attitude.

Last week she participated in a closed meeting in the European Internet
Foundation, where Bill Gates spoke. According to Karin Riss Jørgensen the
message from the Microsoft founder was just as clear last week as it was in the
meeting with the Danish ministers in November. More precisely, Microsoft will
discontinue investments in EU countries, if it is not possible to patent
software."

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  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:57 PM EST
Business as usual...
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:18 PM EST
Why shouldn't Microsoft move their software business where it makes the most
business sense? This looks like a perfect normal information process: some
people want software patents, and some don't want them. Of course those that
want them are free to tell what changes in business a particular decision will
mean for them, so that government can weigh between alternatives.

Problem is: this process is unfairly biased to multinational corporations in
contrast to small business. Multinational corporations can take their business
elsewhere, the small fry business can't. So their opinion is worth no
consideration, unless they all go broke and harm the economy.

However, it is of course a false assumption that patent laws would force a
multinational business to go elsewhere: where some software or patentable item
is developed, and where patents can be registered for it, is completely
independent from another.

What Gates was doing here for this reason was not communicating
business-necessitated consequences of legislation (which would be somewhat
ethical behavior). It was a blunt show of power, a threat of retaliation.

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Bill Gates on Patents
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:08 PM EST
"If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's
ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a
complete standstill today. ... The solution is patenting as much as we can. A
future startup with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price
the giants choose to impose. That price might be high. Established companies
have an interest in excluding future competitors."

Bill Gates, 1992

This was quoted by Fred Warshofsky in "The Patent Wars" of 1994. The
text is from an internal memo written by Bill Gates to his staff. Part of has
appeared in another Gates memos.

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Minor mistake in the update
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 08:12 PM EST
The wording in the update is slightly wrong. Klaus Holse Andersen did not say that he was misquoted, as he wasn't actually the one being quoted in the original article. What he does say is, that Mariane Wier was misquoted. Here is the text from the linked article and my translation:
Klaus Holse Andersen oplyser endvidere, at Microsofts chefjurist Marianne Wier, der er kilden til historien i Børsen, er blevet fejlciteret, men han erkender dog, at spørgsmålet om patentrettigheder har været drøftet.
Furthermore Klaus Holse Andersen states, that executive jurist of Microsoft Marianne Wier, who is the source of the story in Børsen, has been misquoted, but he does however admit, that the question about patentrights has been discussed.

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Stallman's marvellous riposte to Gates' patent nonsense
Authored by: qu1j0t3 on Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 09:28 PM EST
Bill Gates and other communists:
...People who think that everyone should be free to program, free to write complex software, they are communists, says Mr. Gates. But these communists have infiltrated even the Microsoft boardroom. Here's what Bill Gates told Microsoft employees in 1991:

"If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today...A future start-up with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose."
...

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Gates v. Denmark - Hitler v. Chechslovakia
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 01:08 AM EST
If they do not kowtow to the demands, will Gates chase him around the table?

Ruining an ecomony just because you do not get your way. Is an example of what
the future philantropic gestures will be?

What next, disabling your operating system if you add new or replace defective
hardware?

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Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 04:07 AM EST
<i>Microsoft is very much in favour of software patent protection – we
believe this is the only way to ensure innovation and development of
state-of-the-art software.</i>

Funny. Gates used to be against patents in the 80s and early 90s.

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Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: KarlJorgensen on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 09:34 AM EST
Interesting: That is what he said **according to Microsoft's chief attorney who
was present at the meeting** !!

Incredible. They want to threaten heads of state, and they are not trying to be
quiet about it?!

I cannot see any way that this can make anybody more sympathetic to Microsoft.

I know that Denmark is a relatively heavy MS user (the percentages were
published a few months back iirc), but that too is changing nowadays. Doesn't
Gates know that? With his bully tactics he seems to rely on us not knowing the
alternatives.

Usually we have a very relaxed attitude, but bullying WILL raise eyebrows. It
may not result in shouting, but everybody seeing it will glance at each other
and think the same thing. But we will still be civil to the guy. A thousand
years ago the bullying would have provoked a different response :-)

Although we are a small country, we do take pride in being Danish. Bill Gates
is playing with fire here - at least as far as I am concerned. I wasn't too
keen on him before. And even less now.

[Disclaimer: Yes: I'm Danish, but I don't live there anymore.]

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  • Gates v. Denmark - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 11:52 AM EST
Gates made a big mistake
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 11:01 AM EST
I think, Gates made a big mistake treathening a head of a State. Firs of all,
in internatiolan politics, threats like moving a 800 people research company
somewhere else is weightless. The stakes are much higher there.

Second, making this threat against Denmark is particularily pointelss, since
Denmark is one of the richest countries in Europe due to its oil income.

All in all, I think the move was absolutely counter-productive. First of all,
Denmark leaked the information of the threat to the media. Changing their
position would seem that they are acting under threat. This will never happen.
Secondly, standing firmly by their position will increase their popularity
amongst the anti-patent crowd, as the "defender of freedom".

Gates screwed this up big time, I guess.

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Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: KarlJorgensen on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 01:06 PM EST

The story has now also been reported on the DR TV's "TV-Avisen" (the news programme on the national tv station - somewhat equivalent to UK's BBC1 News):
http://www. dr.dk/nyheder/Penge/article.jhtml?articleID=234671

Berlingske Tidende (a rather large national newspaper) also carries the story: http://www.berlings ke.dk/business/artikel:aid=540774/ which has the rather worrying addition:

Men efter mødet med Bill Gates i november sagde videnskabsminister Helge Sander i et interview med dagbladet Børsen:

"Vi oplever gang på gang, at viden er meget let at flytte med, og derfor skal man hele tiden være opmærksom på, at et selskab som Microsoft også kan flytte viden fra Danmark rundt i verden. Når en så stor virksomhed placerer sin største udviklingsafdeling uden for USA i Danmark, og så følger op med endnu flere investeringer, er det noget, vi fra det offentlige skal honorere."

Which translates to (roughly):

But after the meeting with Bill Gates in November science minister Helge Sander said in an interview with the Børsen newspaper:

"We see again and again that knowledge is very easy to move around, and that's why you always have to be aware that a company like Microsoft also can move knowledge away from Denmark around the world. When that big a company places its biggest development center (outside the states) in Denmark, and then follows up with even more investments, that is something we from the public sector should reward."

Note: The last world "reward" is not an accorate translation. Perhaps "encourage" or "give credit to" is better.

In related news: Klaus Holse Andersen (top executive in Navision for Europe, Africa and the middle east - and Danish by the looks of things) rejects the threats. But I cannot help thinking that he still has to follow orders from Mr Gates - hence if Navision was to be moved, Gates would have the last word...

Also: Anders Fogh Rasmussen rejects the claims of being threatened. And the language he uses is quite clear. So why is Microsoft saying that they threatened him? For once, I actually believe Microsoft!

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question about license type
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 03:31 PM EST
This is highly tinfoil and conspiracy like, but nevertheless.

I was wondering whether it would be legal for Microsoft to license the use of software on a personal base? I.e. you, as person A, then have a license to use their software.
(besides the license you pay for the software now)
If they do not like you, then they revoke it, and you are not allowed to use their software. That means bye bye job if at office they use MS and you as person A are not allowed to use it. And at a job application you have to bring your license of course.

Would go nicely along with DRM I guess. And you see something alike, allthough not a license, there are courses to get a piece of paper so that you can show you are capable of handling microsoft software.

First I thought, maybe a little of the wall, but then I remembered right to read.

But would this license type be legal / possible?

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Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 16 2005 @ 03:50 PM EST
The people at vedbæk should not worry.
If MS closes down vedbæk, Danish governement, industry and
users still need specific software, be-it open-source or software
running on different OS. It has to be made, so there will be work.

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Gates v. Denmark
Authored by: blacklight on Thursday, February 17 2005 @ 02:14 AM EST
I almost wish that Microsoft made good on its threat to move its Navision center
from Denmark to the US: without the Danemark location, Microsoft cuts itself off
from the European software developer pool, Microsoft's R&D operations are no
longer 7x24, and the Indian and PRC governments get to draw their own cynical
conclusions about how far to rely on Microsoft as an investor.

It's counterproductive to the point of being stupid to make threats that one
subsequently has to back down and away from when the time to make good on them
arrives.

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