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Sun Charms Us Further
Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 06:25 AM EDT

Here's a charming report from Forrester Research's CEO George Colony about what he says is Sun's blueprint for survival, in which Sun once again reveals it is no true friend of FOSS, and in fact doesn't even know what it is.

The plan is simple: equate Linux with Red Hat and then attack Red Hat:

"Make the argument that Linux equals Red Hat. Linux has become a social force, with all of the free world supposedly cooperating to create an always improving operating system that is forever cheaper and more valuable than the old versions of Unix.

"Sun's view is that Linux is nothing more than Red Hat. The operating system is not about world peace and the charitable work of the world's great programmers. It's like every other operating system ever created: It's about the foibles, greed, mistakes and engineering prowess (or lack thereof) of one vendor -- in this case, Red Hat.

"Step No. 2: Belittle Red Hat. By collapsing Linux into Red Hat, Sun now has a clear target. It can hammer away at a company, as opposed to waging the impossible task of fighting a social movement. And according to Sun, Red Hat is a very vulnerable target -- a company with limited resources, engineering talent, world coverage and capabilities -- with potentially serious intellectual-property issues."

They wouldn't be planning on creating some "potentially serious intellectual-property issues" with their new best friend, Microsoft, or anything? You think? Or is it just a matter of ignobly handing out FUDsicles? The plan has more nauseating steps, but I leave you to go read it on your own.

As you can see, Sun's revealed strategy is built on a mistaken view of what GNU/Linux is. The problem with building your plans on a mistaken fantasy or a wish is that the rest of the world refuses to shake itself loose from reality. Reality doesn't care what your company wants or needs.

And the reality is that GNU/Linux is a better mousetrap. It wasn't started by any company, it is bigger than any company, it depends on no company, and if they all went out of business tomorrow, it would continue. That's one big reason why companies should switch to it at their earliest opportunity, by the way. There is no vendor lock-in. If, worst-case scenario, your vendor did shut down, you won't be left stranded with software that you can't continue to use. You can always use it. The GPL guarantees it. And there will always be a way to get it updated, vendor or no vendor. If I were a business, what I would do to protect my business is hire a whole lot of Linux guys ASAP, and then I'd be set for life, dependent on no one.

Have you noticed that it's generally dying companies that try to misuse the courts as an anticompetitive weapon? It's the fingerprint of failure.

Happily, Sun's plan includes hitching their tottering wagon to Microsoft's sinking star. And of course all of us who study history can attest that companies that team up with Microsoft invariably find it works out very well for them indeed.


  


Sun Charms Us Further | 389 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
OT and links here
Authored by: PolR on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 08:37 AM EDT
.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Any corrections here please.
Authored by: markpace on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 08:37 AM EDT
n/t

---
A change of pace.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: moonbroth on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 08:40 AM EDT
Equating Linux with its vendors, then attacking them? What an original idea. Here's the Register reporting on what Martin Taylor (of Microsoft's Get the Facts anti-Linux FUD initiative) is up to:
...Microsoft will be training its fire specifically on Red Hat, IBM and Novell, as opposed to Linux in general... The newness of the focus on specific Linux companies is just a little improbable, considering that the customers Taylor has been aiming the Get the Facts campaign at are, if they are buying Linux, almost certainly going to be buying it from one of these three companies, each of whom is becoming more capable of using Linux to threaten Microsoft on the desktop.

[ Reply to This | # ]

How Sun could reveal such a plan and allow to publish it?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 08:43 AM EDT
It is almost unbelievable, that Sun who claims to support Open Source movement
could disclose such a plan and allow to spread it to the public...
Mr. Colony supports his revelations only with the oral information obtained from
some Sun's execs. It seems really impossible that Sun could so underestimate
Linux after seeing how the Community has reacted to the SCO case.
There is something strange...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 08:46 AM EDT
Irrelevant. Sun has shipped Linux, so they are vulnerable to a GPL copyright
law suit. This is FAR more dangerous than anything Sun could do to Open
Source.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anni on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 08:49 AM EDT
It would be really nice to hear/read the reply comments from mr. Schwartz and
McNealy after reading this story. Surely they must have known the point of view
in G. Colony's writings before opening their mouths like that.

So now we know they have chosen their side.


---
I am not a laywer, I hate acronyms, and I have been wrong several times before

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 08:50 AM EDT
Sun should learn that they are priced out of the market. It is too late to save
Solaris. All students at University install Linux or Windows.

The bottom line: Solaris has no people who know their Operating System. They
have all learnt Linux.

[ Reply to This | # ]

"Make the argument that Linux equals Red Hat."
Authored by: Steve Martin on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 08:54 AM EDT

Gee, I have to wonder then about this strange file I'm seeing on my computer:

$ cat /etc/slackware-version

Slackware 10.0.0
Gosh, doesn't look like Red Hat to me...

---
"When I say something, I put my name next to it." -- Isaac Jaffee, "Sports Night"

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun needs to adapt
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 08:56 AM EDT

Sun will be (already are?) massively affected by Linux as it becomes the server
solution of choice. In Suns market it probably is the case that generic Linux is
nt a competitor but a handful of distributions are. I do not see a problem with
Sun competing against these distributions as in the long run it will improve
both Linux and Solaris. The beauty of open source is howver that the barrier for
entry is always extremely low and there will always be a choice of distributions
in every area. I don't think Sun have come to terms with Linux yet and how sun
will functon in a Linux dominated environment.

Sun are however very different from MS, they actually produce well engineered
high quality products unlike MS who with only a few exceptions seem incapable of
producing anything of even average quality. In the long run Sun's engineering
culture and ability will mean they survive in some form or other. MS on the
otherhand will face a very difficult future once they lose their monoply unless
they can totally change their culture and performance and will have the added
burden of a reputation for extremely poor quality products..

[ Reply to This | # ]

Call it Linux!
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 08:59 AM EDT

Can we stop calling the system GNU/Linux? The GPL has no mention of a need to advertise the source of the software! For years, the OSS community begged UC-Berkeley to drop the advertising requirement from the BSD license. Must we submit to Stallman's tyranny now?

[ Reply to This | # ]

You might be able...
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:05 AM EDT
You might be able to kill RedHat, but you can't kill Linux.

As described in the quote above, it's more than software, it's a social
movement.

"From My Cold, Dead Hands!"

[ Reply to This | # ]

OpenOffice?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:12 AM EDT
One really has to wonder about what Sun's vascillation means for OpenOffice:
while the open-sourcing of it is irreversible, one gets to wonder about the
recent patent deals with Microsoft where Sun explicitly bargained a waiver for
StarOffice, but not OpenOffice.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: RagManX on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:15 AM EDT
Step No. 4: Play up the OS-plus-platform advantage. Sun is playing a very old game here, but it will play it hard. The company is saying that you cannot be a legitimate, long-term player without controlling and harmonising the operating system and the platform. You must have control over both to offer easy and cost-effective solutions for your customer.

Microsoft doesn't control the hardware platform, but I would certainly term the company a legitimate long-term player. Apple controls the hardware and OS, but I don't see the company as much of a legitimate long-term player. OK, Apple will be around a long time, but so will Sun. Being around a long time does not a real competitor make. I love the Mac, but is it not a serious competitor, fanatics' beliefs aside.

RagManX

[ Reply to This | # ]

Proprietary Hardware/Software
Authored by: zentec on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:18 AM EDT

I remain unconvinced that Sun has seen the light.

On one hand, they've woken-up to the fact that Linux is more than a potential
threat, it's eroding their customer base. But to think they can walk into a
customer and propose a $25,000 Sparc hardware and Solaris solution when IBM will
propose a $15,000 x86 and Linux solution is sheer folly. Worse, they now think
they can compete in the x86 hardware arena with the likes of IBM and Dell. Not
likely, no matter how twisted their reality.

Worse, most IT buyers are wise to the leverage that commodity x86 hardware and
Linux provides. Microsoft sees it, Sun might eventually see it and the smart
user has already seen it.

Sun's management spent the last seven years shooting-off their mouth and
practicing on being irrelevant. It should surprise no one that practice really
does make perfect.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Free Advice to Red Hat
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:19 AM EDT
(1) Remember that Sun has even less financial resources than Red Hat (for the
time being). Team up with Linux competitors (Novell) and allies (HP, IBM) to
get the five-to-one odds that Sun Tzu talks about in "The Art of War."
(Yes, it is possible to team up with competitors when needed; in the '70s
Detroit automakers were prohibited from sharing their anti-smog technology, and
they *begged* to have that law changed so that they could cut costs and have a
better chance fighting Japanese automakers).

(2) Switch to AbiWord in both the Fedora and RH releases to avoid any
"accidental" patent infringement in Open Office. Make a public
statement about why the change occured.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun faces two ways
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:24 AM EDT
I think Sun is genuinely schizophrenic on the subject. There are still some
within Sun who want to be part of free software, but they haven't really been on
top since the beginning of the 1990s when SunOS became Solaris and took to
wearing a Suit.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Sun faces two ways - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 12:09 PM EDT
  • Sun faces two ways - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 06:08 PM EDT
Sun's Wookie defence...
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:25 AM EDT
They want their investers and detractors seeing them battle and win against
someone, even if it isn't major competitor. And I know, RH and SUN compete
directly, but SUN's real competition is IBM-Novell-MS-HP and not RH. As Sun
said, they are targeting RH cause they have the least resources to fight with
and make an easy target because.

I was really starting to sympathize with SUN, but no more. It's not PJ and
Groklaw's poor opinion of them either. The more I read about them and what they
wrote themselves, the more I see them as child molester wanting to babysit my
kids.

Hopefully, they are changing, but I don't see any evidence other than they are
paying lip service and playing both sides of the fence. I don't trust them at
all.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SUN-MIcrosoft deal and GPL Open Office,
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:26 AM EDT
According to this article:
http://www.macworld.com/news/2004/09/16/openoffice/index.php
SUN washed out its hands when signing an agreement with microsoft, protecting
itself from potential suing troubles but leaving GPLed Open Office with that
threat open. WHat a nice thing from a so-called "friend" of Open
source software! Actually, Microsoft would most probably target end users rather
than Open Office itself, but...In my opinion, SUN seems to play a double game
here; maybe they want linux users pushed to switch to StarOffice.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Nothing New Under (the) Sun...
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:27 AM EDT
Come on, folks, are you really surprised here? Sun has never been anything but a
proprietary systems company. Even Java is, has always been, and always will be,
PROPRIETARY. Sun has always maintained an iron grip on it. I don't see mastery
by Sun as being any better than mastery by MS.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Stop digging...
Authored by: Latesigner on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:27 AM EDT
Apparently there is such a thing as a "will to fail".
Don't Sun shareholders have anything to say about a manifestly wrong policy (
assuming they're not just dumping the stock )?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Ares_Man on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:28 AM EDT
I think it's mainly the leadership of Sun that act this way. Here is an article on LinuxWorld by a member of Sun promoting several open source applications.

---
The DMCA is a blueprint for turning business models into law!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: pooky on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:34 AM EDT
It looks to me like what Sun is preparing to do is start spreading FUD that
Linux is mainly engineered by RedHat and no one should trust their critical
business applications to a newbie startup tech company. I believe an article I
read said Sun is already making this argument with it's largest current
customers to keep them from pitching Solaris and the propiretary hardware.

Perhaps MicroSun's approach will be two pronged: Sun gets to attack Linux as not
being enterprise ready because it's mainly RedHat's OS and Microsoft gets to
attack Linux as being more expensive than their own solution. Of course, PJ is
correct. Sun's assertion is totally false and I'm sure the likes of Novell and
IBM will have something to say on the subject. Get ready for a PR war.

And I wouldn't be surprised a bit if RedHat doesn't get purchased by IBM in the
future.

-pooky

---
If at First You Don't Succeed, Skydiving Isn't for You.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:34 AM EDT
"Happily, Sun's plan includes hitching their tottering wagon to Microsoft's
sinking star. And of course all of us who study history can attest that
companies that team up with Microsoft invariably find it works out very well for
them indeed."

"There is only one master of desktop monopoly. Only one who can bend IT
to his will, and he does not share power!"

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: PR3J on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:39 AM EDT
They will deserve the same destiny that everyone who allied with Microsoft
before had.
It means: market loss; bankrupcy; was bought; or some combination of these ...

Maybe we could create/maintain an hitorical list with all groups that allied
with MS before, and what happens to them after that ...

---
Pedro R3 Junior
Brasilia - Brasil

[ Reply to This | # ]

If [Sun = Vader] then; Microsoft = ?
Authored by: NicholasDonovan on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:40 AM EDT
Yes you guessed it. Why was it that the emporer was always choosing losers to be
his henchmen? Vader was essentially a cripple. Maul was just inexperienced and
too young. Dookuu (Funny play on the Japanese word for 'poison' by the way) was
just too old.

Microsoft seems to choose companies on their way out as partners. Where is
OpenNT (i.e., Softway Systems now? )for example.

The words of writer Frank L. Baum perhaps said it best, "...For the thing
about evil persons, despite their best efforts they can never trust each
other."

That describes Sun/Microsoft to a 'T'.

Just a random thought,

Nick

---
Not an Attorney.
Views expressed are my personal opinions and not necessarily those of my
employer or its affiliates.

[ Reply to This | # ]

And how coincidental - compare with Martin Tylor's comments
Authored by: dyfet on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:45 AM EDT
I read something that echoes this very recently. But it was said by Martin Tylor of Microsoft. That one can be found at http://news.com.com/ Microsoft+to+take+direct+shots+at+Linux+rivals/2100-1016_3 -5368450.html?part=rss&tag=5368450&subj=news.1016.5. It would be interesting to compare the two. Seems like an awful lot of coordinated marking fud going on.

[ Reply to This | # ]

why do i get the feeling
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:48 AM EDT
that Microsoft is pushing sun down the same road that SCO is scorching now with
IBM?

is Sun cannon fodder for the real fight, Microsoft vs IBM?
if so, let us get to the real thing.
let Microsoft discover that it's not just IBM it's fighting, not just Linux
either, it's *All* of us.
it's about the right to exist. Linux's right to exist.
our right to be free.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Right to exist - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 11:00 AM EDT
    • Right to exist? - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 11:16 AM EDT
  • why do i get the feeling - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 01:05 PM EDT
PJ, please be careful
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:52 AM EDT

I don't like the way SUN is acting on quite many cases that regard Linux but please be cautious here. PJ made the mistake of taking the words of Forrester Research's CEO as though they were comming from a representative of Sun. Except from the starting phrase ("Here's a charming report from Forrester Research's CEO George Colony about what he says is Sun's blueprint for survival") the rest of the article makes you think that these words are from SUN. PJ express her thoughts as if they are from Sun and so does every body else in the comments.

Note that I also do believe this may very well be their plan based on their behaviour so far but I know this is an opinion based on some evidences not a knowledge based on SUN revealing it to me or in public.

It is very bad thing (not for Sun but for our image as a comunity) to phrase our opinion like it's been proven beyond any dupt ("...Sun's revealed strategy..." and "...Happily, Sun's plan includes...")

That said I'm no perfect also... I could fall in the same mistake also (I did in the past a lot of times)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:02 AM EDT
Open source issues aside (and this is being typed on an RH9 Linux box),

- Large companies do not buy Linux. They buy an operating system from a provider
they can rely upon. In that sense, Linux probably *is* RedHat for people like
Autozone. ("when I have a problem with my OS, I call my vendor")

- RedHat chose to play in large-company supplier league - at least since it
split RedHat and Fedora.

- Reliability of a s/w provider is a legitimate issue, therefore questioning the
reliability of your provider is fair game.

At least to that extent Sun's position is justified if not necessarily pretty.


[ Reply to This | # ]

Linux Proxy Wars II
Authored by: kberrien on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:09 AM EDT
To the big picture. Some food for thought.

Could we be seeing the beginning of the Linux Proxy War II? With SCO about to
implode, and along with it its claims and FUD, is Sun being setup by MS as the
next attacker?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:21 AM EDT
SUN just keep signing there death warrent. So let them be one of the greedy
companies that fail to face the facts. Your customers now demand how and what
software your are geeting paid for. So die.....SUN .... RIP

[ Reply to This | # ]

Partnering with Microsoft
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:25 AM EDT

``Happily, Sun's plan includes hitching their tottering wagon to Microsoft's sinking star. And of course all of us who study history can attest that companies that team up with Microsoft invariably find it works out very well for them indeed.''

Well, it always seems to work out well for Microsoft. The bodies of their partners are usually found behind some bushes, in a shallow grave, with their pockets emptied.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:31 AM EDT
Disrupt the market with a new pricing model. Sun wants its server pricing to mirror mobile phone pricing. When you buy a cell phone, you do two things: One, buy the operating system and the phone together; and two, subscribe to mobile services for monthly fees.

Sun is pricing the server the same way -- get the server for a very low price or potentially no price, and pay for the maintenance and applications (the value imparted) on a subscription basis. Sun believes that this new pricing model will only be possible for a vendor that sells and integrates the operating system and the platform. It can cross-subsidise between the two.


This just in, download your Sun hardware compatible Linux and other FOSS apps now!

I hope Sun does this, I would love to see dirt cheap hardware - Sun can't keep FOSS off their hardware, they make cheap hardware and people want it - those people will write their own software rather then pay taxing monthly 'cell phone' charges - and many of those people will release it as FOSS.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:34 AM EDT
Red Hat is a very vulnerable target -- a company with limited resources, engineering talent, world coverage and capabilities -- with potentially serious intellectual-property issues.


Let's also not forget that Sun distributes it's own version of Linux.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: joef on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:37 AM EDT
The local paper ran this story today; it's on their web site:
http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/1661097p-7893008c.html
It takes a look at RH's take on being a target.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: MplsBrian on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:37 AM EDT
How old is that article / plan? Yesterday's news had rumors of Sun purchasing a linux vendor. http://www.linuxdevice s.com/news/NS5301697037.html

[ Reply to This | # ]

Leaping to Conclusions
Authored by: rsteinmetz70112 on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:41 AM EDT
I caution everyone including PJ to avoid leaping to conclusions about SUN.
Simply let this play out a little.

Nothing in the Article by Mr. Colony remotely suggests that SUN is planning to
do anything except compete on the merits of their offerings, expertise and
existing relationships. This is exactly what IBM has been doing. We don't even
know the language used by SUN to describe this plan we only know Mr Colony's
description of it. I saw no mention of lawsuits or patents or atacking end users
or anyone else in court.

Other than look out for their own self interest what has SUN done to damage the
open source movement or community?

I'm really serious about that question I would like someone to point out what
actual actions SUN has taken that even remotely approach the actions of
Microsoft or SCOG.

Lets see what they stand accused of;

1) They took $2,000,000,000 from Microsoft and made a cross licensings deal,
which is the usual way patent infringment suits end up.

2) They have pointed out, correctly, that RedHat is attempting to create what is
in essence a propriatary distribution of Linux by including propriatary bits in
ther product. That is RedHat's right and their business plan to differientate
themselves for the others. Its SUNs right to point this out. I don't use redHat
for that reason my self, I prefer Slackware.

3) Someone, possibly Microsoft, insisted that OpneOffice be excluded from that
licensing deal. Whether Microsoft intends to sue over its patents or not is yet
to be seen, but I can't figure out why Sun has any obligation to protect third
parties from legal problems. Remember if OpenOffice is attacked, SUN could
always release StarOffice for free as they did for a long time before Open
Sourcing OpenOffice, and remember that is was SUN who set up OpenOffice and
staffed it in the beginning.

4) Sun has correctly identified RedHat as their major Linux competition. Every
survey I've seen says that in the "Enterprise" arena where SUN plays
they are far and away the biggest player. Attacking RedHats business plan and
capibilities do not equal attacking Linux.

5) That have decided to agressively protect their market share by pointing to
their strengths. I would point out that IBM does not have its own distribution
of Linux so IBM is vunerable to a competative attack by more integrated
solutions.

6) Sun is confident of its engineering and support skill, especially its
flagship product Solaris. As someone who has worked with Solaris, there is no
technical reason to denegrate it. Solaris is is a fine operating system. Its not
free or open but is is stable solid and for many applications is an excellent
solution.

As an aside, for no particular reason, and for what its worth, I would point out
than Mr Enderle once worked for the Forrester Research.

I'll sit back and take my lumps now.

---
Rsteinmetz

"I could be wrong now, but I don't think so."

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:49 AM EDT
The purported possibility that SUN and Microsoft want everyone to believe, that
together against IBM, they can switch linux users back to proprietary buying.

This is first deceptive and second designed only to obscure the lack of
potential both of these corporations have in the market place today.

Like SCO, these two corporations are finding the future a lesson in how
important change is.

The uncertainty of the outcome of such plans should make it obvious the
liabitity both have, this does beg the question; what is the reasoning if any.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Business Week was right
Authored by: Scorpio on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:54 AM EDT
Remember that the cover article on the July 26 issue of Business Week was
"Sun: A CEO's Last Stand" where the point of the article was that Sun
has made numerous strategic mistakes in recent years and there is no indication
this will change.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Suspicious but not 100% convinced
Authored by: dave booth on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:58 AM EDT
Sun have done some real dumb stuff in the past, discovered how much it annoyed
their userbase and hurt their business and then backed off somewhat. IBM used to
be in bed with Microsoft and also used to be the sworn enemy of all hardware and
software that didnt have their logo on it but even a juggernaut the size of IBM
managed to turn around and see sense. Its still quite possible for Sun to do
that. SCO had less to lose than Sun does from annoying the open source
community, after all, Sun still has a real product! This is not trolling or
attempting to start a flamewar but I would caution about moving straight into
the "You're EEEEVIL and we're going to CRUSH you!!!!" stage without at
least a reasonable pause at "Hey Bud, You better not do this...."

As the dust settles in the Lindon crater it has to serve as a salutary
demonstration to other companies that they cant get away with pulling stuff like
that or even expect to survive the process. I'd bet McNeally & Schwartz dont
read groklaw, slashdot or the Y! SCOX message board... The thing they are going
to read, however, is the reporting of the final demise of every SCO case. Until
then I wouldnt expect them to change their tune. After that point, I'd be
willing to bet that one of two things will happen - either they will quietly
change direction away from such idiocy or their board and shareholders will find
somebody else to do it. If neither happens then every Sun machine will be gone
from my datacenter within a couple of years. I'm not going to be stuck with
hardware from a suicidal manufacturer.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 11:14 AM EDT
My casual advice to a billionaire:

Get out of bed with Microsoft. This is not a sign of legitimacy when your
customers are Unix people. Go down to legal, pull the Microsoft file and
refresh yourself on how nice a business pal they are.

Get in bed with Oracle. You want people saying things like, "to really
make this scream we need Oracle on Sun."

Don't attack Linux. Linux is solid technology *and* a social movement. That
makes Linux good in an axiomatic sense. Attacking Linux will make you bad in an
axiomatic sense. There's no up side to being the industry jerkass. Ask SCO.

Pick a market. We kinda wonder if you keep the press release-o-stat in the
employee lounge or parking garage.

Don't open source Solaris until you grok open source. You don't yet and it'll
burn you. The community is not going to converge like happy shoe making elves
all over it while you smirk away in your blog. Start by asking yourself,
"how can I make money under a system where IBM, Redhat, and the Brooktree
Public Library can use my code without paying?"

Don't redefine terms and expect people to run with it. Open means open. Linux
means Linux. Redhat means Redhat.

-Storch

[ Reply to This | # ]

Who's the henchman ?
Authored by: wllacer on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 11:34 AM EDT
I was just thinking ...
We all know that OSS is hurting M$ and has the potential to damage it
seriously, but, as of today, the main casualties from OSS have been the UNIX
vendors. Either they have jumped into the bandwagoon (IBM, SGI, HP?) or are
(near) out of bussiness. SUN could be the next in the (death) row.
Their REAL business (hardware) is sun-setting: their low end isn't
competitive to x86, on the middle tier, X86-64 and Power hardware plus Linux are
eating consistently the Sparc/Solaris marketshare. It only their high line who
survives on big corporate DC. And they change plans every x months (where x <
3). As a prospective customer I wouldn't have any confidence in them.
Solaris on Sparc is a great OS, but as relevant as UnixWare on the x86
marketplace. It's, despite their wishes, no more marketable than OS/400 for
that matter: it depends on the success of their hardware offering exclusively.

They even don't know if they have entered or not the OSS arena: Cobalt,
OO.org ,JavaDesktop, nothwistanding

If open source (esp. Linux) would be stopped/slowed down thru litigation, SUN
would be, in the short term, the MAIN beneficiary, even if it's only a new
lease of life. I don't think M$ is too worried about OSS reducing their sales
for the next couple of years, but on the long run.

Till now, nobody has explained why Sun bought some IP from the TSG as the
same time as M$. Nobody understands now the rationale behind the StarOffice
Agreement. And now, this "RedHat's the enemy" ...

< BIG TIN HAT >
Could it be that the "evil genius" of TSG came from Santa Clara and
not from Redmond? That it was Sun who has lured an extremely willing M$ into
this farce ?
You'd say, nobody can be so silly to invite BillG to this party, but he can
be a big spender if he profits, and it's so hard to make quartal ends meet ...
</BIG TIN HAT >
but who knows?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Linux for a Blade?
Authored by: Steve Allen on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 11:42 AM EDT
I have a SunBlade 1000 that's crying to have a Linux distribution put on it. I
plan for it to replace an Ultra 1 that is currently running RedHat 6.2. The
main function of this machine is a webserver, which it does fairly well, but
seems to lock up occasionally. And I'd like to have a more modern OS on there.

I have perused the UltraLinux distributions page to see what I could track down
to run on this puppy. Most of the distributions listed appear to be both
outdated and no longer available.

The two that appear to be available and fairly current are Debian 3.0r2 and
Gentoo 2004-02.

Not having experience with anything other than RedHat and Fedora, I have to ask,
which one is better recommended? Or is there another option that would be
better?

Steve


---
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.
It just happens to be selective about who it makes friends with.
-Kyle Hearn

[ Reply to This | # ]

Poetic License
Authored by: TFBW on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 11:47 AM EDT
Hitching a wagon to a sinking star? I love a good mixed
metaphor.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Open source Solaris, too?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 11:51 AM EDT

Rumors but no action:

-- Sun will buy a Linux vendor.
-- Sun will open source Solaris 10.

Believe it when you see it.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: deList on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 12:01 PM EDT
I do not totally agree that Sun is missing a clue. Someone said it very nicely
recently, a paid shill is someone who may know exactly what they are saying
while completely understanding the opposing view, but who is saying thier line
anyway -- because they are paid to do so. Sun may be playing the cards that
they are directed to play.

So... Since SUN has declared Red Hat as their target, can we expect Novell or
IBM to be the focus from the MS direction?


---
"The problem with SCO is not them misunderstanding. It is daring anyone to call
them on their misinterpretation." - Anon, 1/13/2004

[ Reply to This | # ]

The Hitler - Stalin pact
Authored by: fxbushman on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 12:05 PM EDT
In some ways the Sun-Microsoft arrangement reminds me of the treaty that Germany
and the Soviet Union signed in 1939. Publicly it was no more than a
non-aggression pact, but as the world later learned it contained a secret
agreement to divide up Europe. Now, as wraps are taken off the Sun-Microsoft
pact a very bad smell becomes apparent. Here is what we see so far: Sun gives MS
the green light to go after OpenOffice while protecting its own StarOffice, and
Sun itself will try to bring down Red Hat.

I had hoped for better from Sun, since (unlike Microsoft) Sun is in a position
to compete on a basis of the quality of its product.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: blacklight on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 12:41 PM EDT
"Happily, Sun's plan includes hitching their tottering wagon to Microsoft's
sinking star."

Ah, the power of two - as in two times zero! To give credit to Microsoft,
Microsoft is fighting a lot more effectively than the Sun. If the Sun keeps
sinking, the logical end result of the Sun-Microsoft partnership is that
Microsoft will end up acquiring the Sun, and put a dog collar on the dynamic duo
of Schwartz and McNealy.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: blacklight on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 12:51 PM EDT
"Happily, Sun's plan includes hitching their tottering wagon to Microsoft's
sinking star."

Ah, the power of two - as in two times zero! To give credit to Microsoft,
Microsoft is fighting a lot more effectively than the Sun. If the Sun keeps
sinking, the logical end result of the Sun-Microsoft partnership is that
Microsoft will end up acquiring the Sun, and put a dog collar on the dynamic duo
of Schwartz and McNealy.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 01:04 PM EDT

``You're going to entrust the future of your company to what vendor? A little software player with no proven abilities in the enterprise business? Are you out of your mind?''

That's the approach that HP sales used to take when talking to potential customers: belittle the competition. And it worked so well, too. NOT! I used to come away from HP sales presentation thinking "Well, we just wasted an hour or so of our day and all we heard was how bad HP's competitors are and hardly anything about what makes HP so good that we'd want to switch to them as a supplier. I think we should stick with our current vendors." And we did.

HP's plan worked so well that they can't make money on much of anything except printers and ink. What's Sun's fallback position when they sour the potential customers' view of them with this sort of negative campaigning?

``Play up the OS-plus-platform advantage.''

Someone should have Schwartz ask Ken Olsen how well that worked for Digital.

``IBM is introducing Power systems that don't run AIX...''

IBM recently introduced a Power-based system that doesn't run AIX. If IBM starts hearing from customers that they want to run AIX on this new hardware, how long does Schwartz think it'd take IBM to make that happen?

``... it is offering choice at the high end and at the low end. It is offering not only Solaris but also Linux and Windows for the operating system. And it is finally offering x86 via the Opteron chip ...''

Gee. How original. Another play from HP's playbook. And look how well it's working out for them. Heck, HP offers even more choice both in chips and in operating systems (for now, anyway).

(I assumed that the bombastic Schwartz was doing most of the talking and attributed the above idea as his. The article didn't go into who was presenting these ideas.)

I wouldn't have limited Sun future to being the ``data general [sic] of the decade''. They seem to want to emulate the business plans of every failed, major computer vendor.

As the old computer game said: Suddenly it is very dark.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: dracoverdi on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 01:56 PM EDT
Schwartz says that Sun won't become a zombie but then his step 8 is Microsoft's
standard Zombie Minion contract.

Steps 1-3 are just a huge straw man argument (maybe straw hat in this case)

1. Linux = Red Hat (false)
2. Red Hat is bad (not proven)
3. Therefore Linux is bad (?!)

He does make one valid point: On the desktop there is a strong market out there
for whole Linux systems (supported linux distro + supported HW platform).

In addition, I would like to know that when I buy, or assemble a Linux system is
isn't being counted as part of Microsoft's "Market Share"



---
The problem with ignorance is that the afflicted are unaware of their ailment

[ Reply to This | # ]

Looneytoons
Authored by: Jude on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 02:24 PM EDT
And of course all of us who study history can attest that companies that team
up with Microsoft invariably find it works out very well for them indeed.

Lemme see, how would this be depicted in a Looneytoons movie?

Sun has just noticed that they've walked off the edge of a cliff, and has brief
moment to experience regret before gravity kicks in. Microsoft, still standing
on firmer ground, pulls a huge anvil out of their pocket and hands it to Sun.

[ Reply to This | # ]

how to be a successful writer
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 02:25 PM EDT
It's easy: all you simply do is equate all other writers
with Stephen King and then attack Stephen King.
It can't fail! Can it?

[ Reply to This | # ]

"...no proven abilities in the enterprise business"
Authored by: Lazlo Nibble on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 03:09 PM EDT
`You're going to entrust the future of your company to what vendor? A little software player with no proven abilities in the enterprise business? Are you out of your mind?''

Sun will have an interesting learning experience when they try this argument with the many "billion-dollar" companies that have already successfully migrated mission-critical applications to Red Hat Linux. In these enterprises, throwing "look how big we are" arguments up against proven successes won't just fail, it'll make Sun look very, very foolish.

Ovetall, the strategy seems to rely heavily on reaching an audience that still hasn't performed a serious evaluation of Linux. Those who have already know whether, how and where Linux will benefit them. If they don't think Linux can fill a role at their organization, Sun isn't competing with Linux for their business -- they're competing with IBM, Microsoft, HP, et al.

[ Reply to This | # ]

What happens to Java?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 03:46 PM EDT
After reading Sun's strategy, my question is: what happens to Java when Sun
folds?

Their strategy was quite amazing in that they managed to misunderstand
*everything* including: their customers, the market, Linux, open source,
Microsoft, and their competition.

So, from this, I think it's possible to predict that Sun will die in the next
ten years. (Unless they get some new management or the management answers the
cluephone, which has been ringing for some time...)

So, what happens to Java?

By the way, I think it's safe to say that software companies that don't
understand open source are doomed. Note that I did not say that software
companies that don't go open source are doomed-- only that they must
*understand* open source.

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • What happens to Java? - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 04:04 PM EDT
    • Microsoft C# - Authored by: rsteinmetz70112 on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 04:16 PM EDT
      • Microsoft C# - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 10:42 PM EDT
    • Java - Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 04:37 PM EDT
Updated version of old joke...
Authored by: Dr.Dubious DDQ on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 03:51 PM EDT

Q:"What do you get when you cross Microsoft and Sun?"

A:"Microsoft."

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 04:54 PM EDT
Sun is joining up with Microsoft against IBM? Actually, having Solaris on x86
just gives organizations one more reason to stay away from Windows.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT
Step No. 6: Feature customer choice. Sun has dropped all of its stridency around Unix -- it is offering choice at the high end and at the low end. It is offering not only Solaris but also Linux and Windows for the operating system. And it is finally offering x86 via the Opteron chip from Advanced Micro Devices.

And what distribution of Linux might that be?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 05:19 PM EDT
Sun's problem is that it is competing with everyone. In hardware at the high end
it is competing with IBM and HP, and at the low end with Dell and various
Opteron manufacturers. In operating systems it is competing with Linux and
Windows. Java and J2EE are competing with .net, WebSphere, and various other
programs. For the compete software stack it is competing with Novell.

I think it is too small to succeed at all this. Where is it going to make money?
Traditionally its money has come from proprietary hardware. Now it seems to hope
it will be from volume software and services, but in the latter IBM is king. My
guess is that Sun will survive, but as a smaller company.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Why stop at one or two?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 05:47 PM EDT
I'm a student with more hdd space than I need and a very decent internet
connection when I'm at uni. Hence I intend to download as many linux flavours as
I can without annoying the computer dept. Any recommendations are very welcome -
currently I have Debian and RH (plus knoppix and suse livecds).

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 07:20 PM EDT
...and thus we gird ourselves for a battle on yet another front.

It's at least fun to get the exercise for a change.

Job#1:
Excellent code.

Job#2:
Superb UI.

Job#3:
Grab marketshare.

Job#4:
Kick the detractors' collective asses on the merits.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Linux strategy misrepresented
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 22 2004 @ 09:32 PM EDT
Apparently I read a different article, because the one that I read showed Sun
getting smarter about Linux. They seemed to have learned that attacking Linux
didn't work, so they are going after Red Hat's business.

Red Hat is one of the most successful examples of a company that has moved
beyond selling software. They sell support. Sun wants to counter that by
selling better support at a better price. I see nothing wrong with that.

Sun also wants to take it to the next step. Selling software support instead of
selling software is step one. Selling hardware support instead of selling
hardware is step two. That may be even harder to explain than software support
as a business model. But Sun already leases systems, and Red Hat doesn't.

Another point that most overlook is that Sun Opteron systems running Solaris can
run Linux applications. The old Sun attacked Linux as an inferior Unix. The
new Sun message seems to be that Solaris is a superior Linux. By that, I mean
that Sun has realized that ISVs are more likely to support Red Hat Linux x86 as
a target platform than Solaris/Opteron. There are applications where there is
no good open source implementation. Red Hat has been taking away market share
from Solaris/SPARC not just for open source applications, but as the preferred
platform for closed source applications. Sun is telling customers to go ahead
and run their closed source Linux applications on Solaris, and get a better TCO
while avoiding lockin. They could be right.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Stumbles on Thursday, September 23 2004 @ 06:35 AM EDT
You know what's really disappointing about Sun's new
tactics? Their willingness to lie and use deceit. Well, I
guess nearly all companies do that to some extent. I'm just
surprised at their "openness". No pun intended.

---
You can tuna piano but you can't tuna fish.

[ Reply to This | # ]

SUN take note: SCO
Authored by: dodger on Thursday, September 23 2004 @ 08:15 AM EDT
One aspect of any legal proceeding is how the media presents the case for or
against anyone. SCOG has learned the very hard way, that in a very short time (8
months or so) they went from being a respected member of the community to being
a permanent outcast. I don't think they can ever undo what they have done.

Most of what I have read in the last year or so about SUN is flip floppy and not
clear if they are friends with or enemies of the open source movement.

While this sounds inconclusive, in reality it means that they have been doing a
poor job of emphasizing their 'friendship' with Linux. I believe this is a
dangerous tact to take.

Remember that the open source movement is to prevent what has happened with the
monopolistic approach of Microsoft with its lockout of choice, flexibility, etc.
SUN used to be fighting this battle. Don't give up now.

[ Reply to This | # ]

More Oss in press
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 23 2004 @ 08:33 AM EDT

See the september 24th Chronicle of Higher Education
section B. Entirely devoted to open source software,
and containing a full page advert from Microsoft showing,
graphically, that their stuff is cheaper in 4 out of 5
categories.

Hmmmm.... what is it that 4 out of 5 dentists recommend?

A. Vogel

[ Reply to This | # ]

time to fork OO? how about another way
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 23 2004 @ 10:14 AM EDT
there is a possible altenative to forking OO, and IBM has it, maybe they could
be convinced to open source the SmartSuite(Lotus, Wordpro, etc) they got from
Lotus a while back. Havent seen it advertised in a long time dont even know if
it is still being sold.

Ron K

[ Reply to This | # ]

Doesn't make sense.
Authored by: mdbelt on Thursday, September 23 2004 @ 10:34 AM EDT
I think some people are making Sun out to be evil because they won't turn some
of there products over to Open Source control (eg: Java). Instead they choose
to be the benevolent caretaker. Why should they be pressed into releasing
everything? They already contribute a heck of a lot (eg: Project Looking
Glass). I personally am still a Sun fan, and don't believe everything I read
(eg: Certain reporter's comments about SCO).

[ Reply to This | # ]

you need to THINK A LITLE HARDER, SUN.
Authored by: skidrash on Thursday, September 23 2004 @ 12:10 PM EDT
Most Linux uptake is still due to motivated, technically sophisticated people
who find information out for themselves.

You do NOT want to talk down to these people and mislead them.

That's a lesson MS apparently still has NOT learned.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further ...
Authored by: tanstaafl on Thursday, September 23 2004 @ 07:01 PM EDT
... or at least _tries_ to. According to eWeek (for what that's worth), Sun
intends to 'open-source' Solaris 10
(http://www.eweek.com/print_article/0,1761,a=135501,00.asp). The link that
eWeek gave (http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/solaris-express), however,
doesn't seem to mention that; instead, it talks about free downloads. I guess
they want the community to debug their beta stuff, at least for now.

If, on the other hand, they were to _really_ make it open-source, I would say
more power to them. After all, absent the outright theft of copyrighted code by
using the court system, as SCO is trying to do, open-source will be the most
robust business model in the future, and truly opening code is what we are
after. If they don't choose to do so, that's their right, but they need not
expect me to debug their stuff.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, September 23 2004 @ 10:27 PM EDT
The only FUDsicles being handed out are by the author of the analysis. The ZDnet article is pretty clear and is exactly how EVERYONE is attacking Linux. Attack the corporations making a living off of Linux. The quotes (rather than the ridiculous IP inferences which are inflammatory without merit) show that basically, Sun figures they can out-engineer the Linux contributors. If you add up the engineers, the numbers are in Sun's favour, not Linux's. Every user does not hack the kernel. The number of core contributors (drop the drivers and file systems, or maybe keep... three file systems for argument), and reduce it to the core OS bits. There actually aren't that many on Linux. The advantage is they are some very bright, very motivated people.

Sun is offering a tuned stack. They are offering services with management software with hardware with support. They figure they can do that and make a superiour value proposition to the customers. I expect that in more than enough cases to be successful in the billion-dollar range they enjoy, they will do just that. They won't wipe out Linux or Microsoft, but they will recapture being the IT team's friend and old reliable.

Look at it another way (I do admire Sun, but I'm also the first to say they've done some bloody stupid things). Sun brought Java out. They succeeded in giving the industry a credible, reliable and innovative system to build a hell of a lot of business and software systems in. It's still the most mature and reliable platform out there.

At one point, they had some outstanding processors. They just have blown it over the past while. They figured that out four years ago. They made a number of silicon-engineering acquisitions to work to correct it. They cancelled some of the UltraSparc line in the architecture. They moved in a radically new direction. It's different. It has new ideas based on new assumptions. The threading permeates the design extensively. It's what I believe to be a step toward fabric computing. Taking the N1 style of system and placing it in silicon and copper traces. It's a system that is built to take advantage of how Java thinks too. They are building the stack, and they are the only ones that can other than IBM.

Microsoft can't control the hardware any more. AMD proved that. IBM has Power, and its own Java VMs, and services, and management. The only thing, as even Jonathan Schwartz has pointed out, is that they lack an OS now. They are using Red Hat. Or Suse. They need to buy one or build a credible distro themselves. Then they too will have the whole stack.

That stack offers the next wave of innovation as a package. Just as Microsoft keeps the whole OS closed up so they can play without barrier within it, that's the next stage of these stacks. The chips to the system to the OS to the VM/ Application Server layer will be engineered and tuned to work together at a more and more fundamental and integrated level. That's where you suddenly genesis fabric computing and utility computing from. Making everything that supports the application invisible.

It's sure not easy, and it's no cake walk for Sun, but they do have the pieces. IBM almost has the pieces. Microsoft could sure buy or partner to get the pieces. Everybody else doesn't get it. That includes Linux. Linux isn't about that level of capability. It could get there, but it would need another wave of very bright motivated people to build it. They aren't there yet. The kernel hacking is just coming to terms with SMP in a mature way. Most of this stuff isn't even in the kernel, it's wrapped around it and built underneath it. It's a system.

Just a few thoughts. Don't count Sun out yet, and don't count them as evil. They have been more supportive of open standards than the vast majority of companies out there. Most of the GNU stuff started out on a large scale on Sun Workstations. They publish specs for their processor tha Fujitsu makes better versions of. They do make mistakes, and they are a corporation and must behave to make money, but they sure do it in a much better way than most of the other big vendors in my opinion.

Dallas atthedomainof hockley.ca

[ Reply to This | # ]

Not taken so well on slashdot ...
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:54 AM EDT
Judging from the responses on /., it seems like the smart people see this for
what it is, a FUD attack on SUN.

Like everything else, in the end, the people making the big bucks with linux,
won't be the people who wrote it. Linux will be co-opted out from underneath
all the small contributors that made it what it is.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Groklaw Sucks Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 24 2004 @ 05:22 AM EDT
groklaw sucks.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun Charms Us Further
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:12 AM EDT
It is not strange that Sun should adopt as its battle plan the one that
Microsoft has adopted.

Recall the facts:
1) Sun has repeatedly stated that its Solaris business is being harmed by Linux
and has recently attempted to revitalize it.
2) Sun joined with Microsoft in funding the SCO attack against Linux and the
GPL.
3) Sun, near financial collapse, was bailed out by a $1.6B 'settlement' with MS
that included secret agreements. Sun's subsequent 'MS Lawn Jockey' actions
leads one to wonder if Sun has become a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft?
4) Sun pushed OpenOffice, the biggest threat against MS Office, outside its
umbrella of legal protection against an MS lawsuite, but kept StarOffice
inside.
5) Sun and Microsoft have smoked the peace pipe and are now, together, burying
their hatchets into Linux.

This new plan of attack incorporates a putative shield from claims that Sun is
attacking Linux, OpenSource and the GPL. The Sun PR department attacks RedHat,
with its implications that Linux is the real culprit, but Sun management
responds to claims it is attacking OpenSource with "No, we are only
competing against RedHat!. We released OpenOffice to OpenSource, after
all!"

If SCO begins shows any further weakness in their court case I expect Sun (and
MS ?) to step in as 'friends' of the court in favor of SCO's claims.

With "friends" like Sun, who needs enemies?

I suspect that cooperation between Sun and the OpenSource community will soon
reach an alltime low or cease to exist. OpenOffice will move off of servers
supported/controlled by Sun, and Sun employees will be asked to leave the
project. This may slow down OOo development, but its better to go alone than
with an enemy in the camp.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Sun is right!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 24 2004 @ 01:34 PM EDT
Sun is adapting and so should you. I don't think Sun is talking to the people
that like to run linux on their desktops because they can't afford to run OS X
by buying an Apple desktop/laptop, or those that want to call themselves
geeks because they can open up a terminal and type a few commands. Sun is
talking to the corporate market, the ones that run operating systems and
enterprise software on their systems to make money, not to just try them out
or to be anti-Microsoft like many on the linux bandwagon.

Sun is right in that if I want to run an enterprise caliber software (Oracle,
SAP,
PeopleSoft, etc.) I have to run it on a certified platform in order to get
support. That usually turns out to be Red Hat and in some cases Suse.
Would I love to run Debian? Sure. Can I? Not if I want to get support from
Oracle or any other enterprise vendor. To Oracle, Red Hat IS linux and as a
corporate buyer it means the same to me. Red Hat can solve this issue easily
if they say that they'll transfer all their ISV certification to any LSB
compliant
distribution. They are all Linux, right? Will they do that? I don't know, but
I
doubt it since it will cripple their business model. I think that's Sun's
message on the difference between the open source movement and the
reality that you encounter with Red Hat in the marketplace. Will you hear
anything like this from IBM, Dell, Intel, Oracle, SAP or even Novell? No, if
you
read "Under the Radar" by Rober Young, you would know that they are
all
pre-IPO investors in Red Hat. There's a lot of hype going on in the
marketplace and it is very hard to separate it from the truth.

How can I tell Sun is adapting? Well, they just don't sell Sparc systems
anymore. Have you tried any of the new Opteron servers that they are
selling? They kick ass performance and price wise.

Have you tried Solaris 10? Have you checked its performance? These
questions have to be answered before people start running their mouths for
hype sake. The truth still remains that Solaris is a scalable OS and I can run
it
now on x86. In the past Solaris on x86 was an afterthought. Now with
solaris 10 it kicks ass and I'm not talking about SMP systems only, try it on a

single proc machine also. Try it and if you don't get what I'm seeing rip this

thread appart and let everyone out there know that solaris 10 sucks. But if
you find what I've seen let people know as well. That's the beauty of sites
like
this that allow for comments, they allow for the free and unbias opinion of
the users and foster knowledge creation and collaboration.

Sun doesn't get open source? Come on, give me a break. Do you run vi?
Give thanks to Bill Joy and Sun. Do you have anyone with disabilities that is
running Gnome? Thank Sun. Would people have even talked about linux on
the desktop if it wasn't for Open Office? Thank Sun for that also. Sun doesn't

talk about open source the same way we've been hearing in the last 5 years
because they've been doing it for a long time.

Is Sun proprietary? Yes they are. Does a big company care? No, not really.
Can I get the source for Solaris? It has been available for partners and
educational institutions for a while. Do most companies have better kernel
hackers in their IT team than Sun to mess around with their code? Not really.

Sun is not Microsoft. They have the engineering to back that up and it will
give Red Hat a run for its money.

In the end, this is the best thing that has happened to Linux lately. Red Hat
will have to compete with Sun based on performance, security and features.
As users of both Linux and Solaris it will be a win-win and I don't see
anything wrong with that.

J. Marinez

[ Reply to This | # ]

PJ, I hate to repeat the off-spoken, but...
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 24 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT
it seems Gandhi's phrase "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you,
then they fight you, then you win" is very close to the mark of where
Groklaw is right now.

The number of trolls/angry remarks/subtle putdowns and you name it, has grown
rapidly over the past few months.

Keep up the good fight -- the next stage is winning, but it will be a protracted
war, with some battles lost.

Microsoft, and similar ilk, are the ultimate enemies of freedom. As the CEO of
Novell said recently -- M$ has taken from the economy well over 60 billion
dollars that could have been spent on innovation.

It's sad that money was spent mostly on buying over-priced office software.

[ Reply to This | # ]

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