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Munich's Mayor on LiMux and Other Examples of Software Patents Hindering Progress
Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 08:11 AM EDT

Silicon.com is reporting that, once again, the headlines didn't present a totally accurate picture. Munich's Mayor Christian Ude now says that no one has given up on the LiMux project. There's a big difference, he says, between suspended and cancelled:

"'The town stands by the LiMux initiative and its strategic decision in favour of open-source solutions,' the mayor said in a statement on the city council's website."

Their legal eagles have to evaluate the patent risk, and meanwhile, I gather a whole lotta politicking is going on to educate on the effect software patents will have on FOSS. The mayor says this:

"'It all depends from now on the European councils and businesses who are interested in open source: they must exert their influence on national governments and on the European authorities.'"

There can be no question that there is a growing awareness that patents can be deadly to innovation in software, and not just to FOSS. I was researching and I came across this submission [PDF] by Zenaan Harkness to the Senate Select Committee on the Free Trade Agreement between Australia and the United States of America.

Here are some snips from it, in which he talks about why patents and copyright laws, unless they are of very short duration, actually hinder innovation and progress in the software industry:

"To whom it may concern:

"I wish to express my grave concern as to the damaging potential to the software industry potentially caused by DMCA-like provisions, copyright extensions and software patents.

"The question to ask is do these foster local industry, and primarily small to medium sized companies, or do such laws, treaties and the like simply prop up existing monopolies that can otherwise no longer compete in today's economy - an economy where the barrier to entry is becoming very low, where an individual or small group can get out there and have a fair go. . . .

"There must be a balance between what society gives up in return for these legislative monopolies, and the supposed benefit that society gains from granting such monopolies. In the software world where the barrier to entry is so low, the grant of monopoly is in many if not all cases, simply a barrier to the learning and further expression of others. . . .

"The problems arise when the term of such monopolies lies well beyond the useful life of that which is created. In the computer software world, that life is very much shorter than in traditional 'media' - in the order of a few years at most. It is beyond any shadow of a doubt that, in the world of software and software development, that the monopolies so granted, due to their relatively huge duration, merely prohibit innovation. . . .

"Essentially, the periods of monopolies granted, if granted at all for software, must be extremely short if they are to benefit society as a whole, rather than simply prop up existing monopolistic companies and old-school business practices that cannot otherwise compete . . . "

The list of all the submissions is online but I found his particularly striking.

Here's another example of trying to educate on the subject of patents for software, this time in England back in 2000, when Edward Welbourne was asked, I gather by someone in the patent office, questions about patents on computer software and ways of doing business. He answered neither should be granted patents, and here are some reasons:

"One of the major phenomena of the present rapid-growth phase of my industry (software) is `incremental innovation' - where one player mimics another and adds some features - which is very vulnerable to `strategic' use of patents; large parts of the industry are already tangled in a web of mutual cross-licensing (which acts as a barrier to entry for new players in the industry) which it would be hard to distinguish from a cartel (had their lawyers not made sure to do the deals in some way definitely distinguishable (to the law, if not to the rest of us) from a cartel).

"I believe a *reduction* in the scope of patents would make it easier for me to do my job (not having to spend half my time looking over my shoulder to check whether I'm infringing a patent when I use my latest ingenious idea), provide consumers with greater choice, facilitate incremental innovation, open up a wider range of business models by which inventors could earn a living (e.g. consultancy, without having to argue about whether they or their client ends up owning the patents), reduce barriers to entry in a wide range of markets - hence encouraging competition, free enterprise and innovation, while serving consumers better. . . .

"Q7. If you have any experience of the US position on patenting software or business methods, how would you assess it?

"Limited experience only.

"The worst part of their system is that judgement of `non-obvious and original' has been slapdash and failed to take account of significant prior art; patents have been granted which are both obvious and blatantly derivative; whole businesses have been set up to exploit this state of affairs, thereby exacerbating it.

"The impact on my employers' business has tended to involve living with the risk that we might be unable to sell our products to folk in the U.S.A. . . .

"One final note: at present, such an enormous number of patents are being granted (especially in the U.S.A.) that it is utterly absurd to suggest that I can check whether a program I am writing (or any other kind of product I could develop) infringes some of them. Furthermore, in many cases, it is not possible to discover whether I infringe without actual litigation and a court ruling; and, even if I do not infringe, my ability to make a decent return in my investment in my program (or other product) is endangered by the prospect that my first-to-market lead will be obliterated by the period when I'm being prevented from trading by a court's injunctive relief for someone who *claims* I've infringed their patent. Where I cannot tell whether I am committing a crime, and where I am unable to prove a counter-suit for malicious prosecution when someone falsely claims I have committed a crime, the law causes exactly such trouble as it is meant to spare me.

"Patents create a climate of realistic fear for smaller players. They are not in any sense necessary for larger players to do well. Some form of scaling back of the scope of patents is needed."

Mr. Wellbourne has also written an essay on why software is different and particularly ill suited to patent protection, and here is a sample:

"First, I note that the reason generally given for providing patents is that they reward inventors, thereby stimulating innovation. In the software industry, there is no lack of innovation - indeed, our customers might with good cause beg us to slow the flood of innovation, which swamps the users of our products in permanent upheaval. Stimulating innovation in the software industry is unnecessary.

"Second, it suffices to examine the patents that the European patent office has been granting - such as the Amazon patent I allude to above, which would appear to cover a business method InterFlora have been using for decades - to see that the patent office is incapable of assessing whether a claimed innovation is indeed novel and non-obvious to practitioners in the relevant field of endeavour: the industry has no faith in the patent examiners' ability to assess these issues (and this applies to every patent office which has granted patents on software, some of which have been doing so for years - it is not just that the EPO's examiners are inexperienced). The essential cause of this is that the software industry is innovating so fast that it is impossible for an examiner to be well appraised of the state of the art - it is, indeed, hard even for full-time practitioners to keep up. Regardless of the reason, the inability of patent examiners to win the confidence of the industry is a material difference between software and those industries which are well-served by the patent system.

"The software industry, without any interference from the patent system, innovates at a break-neck pace: this makes patents both unnecessary and unworkable in the 'software as such' industry."

Here you have two men in the software business, each begging *not* to be "protected" by patents. Are they just starry-eyed idealists, who don't understand business? or have they seen something counterproductive about patents for software? Some MIT economists decided to take a look at the effect patents have on innovation and see if the rationale for granting patents has a reality base. Their paper, SEQUENTIAL INNOVATION, PATENTS, AND IMITATION, by James Bessen and Eric Maskin was published in 2000. I believe even SCO accepts the credentials of MIT. And here is what they concluded after their study:

"The standard economic rationale for patents is to protect potential innovators from imitation and thereby give them the incentive to incur the cost of innovation. Conventional wisdom holds that, unless would-be competitors are constrained from imitating an invention, the inventor may not reap enough profit to cover that cost. Thus, even if the social benefit of invention exceeds the cost, the potential innovator without patent protection may decide against innovating altogether.. . .

"In fact, the software industry in the United States was subjected to a revealing natural experiment in the 1980’s. Through a sequence of court decisions, patent protection for computer programs was significantly strengthened. We will show that, far from unleashing a flurry of new innovative activity, these stronger property rights ushered in a period of stagnant, if not declining, R&D among those industries and firms that patented most. We maintain, furthermore, that there was nothing paradoxical about this outcome. For industries like software or computers, there is actually good reason to believe that imitation promotes innovation and that strong patents (long patents of broad scope) inhibit it. Society might be well served if such industries had only limited intellectual property protection. Moreover, many firms might genuinely welcome competition and the prospect of being imitated. This is because these are industries in which innovation is both sequential and complementary. By 'sequential,' we mean that each successive invention builds on the preceding one—in the way that Windows built on DOS. . . .

"A firm that patents its product in a world of sequential and complementary innovation can prevent its competitors from using that product (or sufficiently similar ideas) to develop further innovations. And because these competitors may have valuable ideas not available to the original firm about how to achieve such innovations, the patent may therefore slow down the pace of invention. . . .

"But whether or not patent protection is available, a firm may well be better off if other firms imitate and compete with it. Although imitation reduces the firm’s current profit, it raises the probability of further innovation and thereby improves the prospect that this firm will make another profitable discovery later on. In short, when innovation is sequential and complementary, standard reasoning about patents and imitation may get turned on its head. Imitation becomes a spur to innovation, while strong patents become an impediment. . . .

"Conclusion -- Intellectual property appears to be one of those areas where results that seem secure in the context of a static model are overturned in a dynamic model. Imitation invariably inhibits innovation in a static world; in a dynamic world, imitators can provide benefit to both the original innovator and to society as a whole. Patents preserve innovation incentives in a static world; in a dynamic world, firms may have plenty of incentive to innovate without patents and patents may constrict complementary innovation. This suggests a cautionary note regarding intellectual property protection. The reflexive view that 'stronger is always better' is incorrect; rather a balanced approach is required. The ideal patent policy limits 'knock-off' imitation, but allows developers who make similar, but potentially valuable complementary contributions."

Richard Stallman presents the following experience:

"In the early 90s we desperately needed a new free program for compression, because the old de-facto standard 'compress' program had been taken away from us by patents. In April 1991, software developer Ross Williams began publishing a series of data compression programs using new algorithms of his own devising. Their superior speed and compression quality soon attracted users.

"That September, when the FSF was about a week away from releasing one of them as the new choice for compressing our distribution files, use of these programs in the United States was halted by a newly issued patent, number 5,049,881.

"Under the patent system's rules, whether the public is allowed to use these programs (i.e., whether the patent is invalid) depends on whether there is 'prior art"': whether the basic idea was published before the patent application, which was on June 18, 1990. Williams' publication in April 1991 came after that date, so it does not count.

"A student described a similar algorithm in 1988--1989 in a class paper at the University of San Francisco, but the paper was not published. So it does not count as prior art under the current rules.

"Reforms to make the patent system work 'properly' would not have prevented this problem. Under the rules of the patent system, this patent seems valid. There was no prior art for it. It is not close to obvious, as the patent system interprets the term. (Like most patents, it is neither worldshaking nor trivial, but somewhere in between.) The fault is in the rules themselves, not their execution.

"In the US legal system, patents are intended as a bargain between society and individuals; society is supposed to gain through the disclosure of techniques that would otherwise never be available. It is clear that society has gained nothing by issuing patent number 5,049,881. This technique was going to be available anyway. It was easy enough to find that several people did so at around the same time.

"Under current rules, our ability to use Williams's programs depends on whether anyone happened to publish the same idea before June 18, 1990. That is to say, it depends on luck. This system is good for promoting the practice of law, but not progress in software.

"Teaching the Patent Office to look at more of the existing prior art might prevent some outrageous mistakes. It will not cure the greater problem, which is the patenting of every new wrinkle in the use of computers, like the one that Williams and others independently developed.

"This will turn software into a quagmire. Even an innovative program typically uses dozens of not-quite-new techniques and features, each of which might have been patented. Our ability to use each wrinkle will depend on luck, and if we are unlucky half the time, few programs will escape infringing a large number of patents. Navigating the maze of patents will be harder than writing software. As The Economist says, software patents are simply bad for business."

And just in case none of the above convinces you, it might interest you to know that patent lawyers are abuzz about a recent decision by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit to review a patent case, Phillips v. AWH, because they are hoping for some reform, and when lawyers are clamoring for reform of the legal system, you know something is surely broken:

"'I'm ecstatic,' said William Atkins, a partner in Pillsbury Winthrop's McLean, Va., office. 'What the Federal Circuit will tinker with is at the heart of the U.S. patent litigation system. One small modification, and it affects virtually all U.S. patents.'

"'All district judges and practitioners have been tearing their hair out' over how to read a patent claim, said Michael Barclay, a partner at Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati. 'The problem is that three-judge panel cases have been all over the map. There have been no consistent guidelines.'

"Sometimes courts rely on dictionary definitions, sometimes the language in the patent itself. Barclay said district judges are reversed on claim construction 50 percent of the time, 'so they might as well flip a coin.'"

Flipping a coin means appeals are inevitable, because the loser always knows he has a shot on appeal. No wonder patent cases are so expensive. Chief Judge Haldane Robert Mayer dissented from the court's decision to review Philips v. AWH, because he felt the decision didn't go *far* enough to change the broken patent system, or as he put it, "because I am convinced that shuffling our current precedent merely continues a charade, I dissent from the en banc order."


  


Munich's Mayor on LiMux and Other Examples of Software Patents Hindering Progress | 168 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
OT here please
Authored by: inode_buddha on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 08:19 AM EDT
In case some info might be useful

---
"When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price." --
Richard M. Stallman

[ Reply to This | # ]

Munich's Mayor on LiMux and Other Examples of Software Patents Hindering Progress
Authored by: inode_buddha on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 08:30 AM EDT
"Here are some snips from it, in which he talks about why patents and copyright laws, unless they are of very short duration, actually hinder innovation and progress in the software industry:"

Perhaps because software itself is so short-lived (of "short duration") much like ideas even put to words?

---
"When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price." -- Richard M. Stallman

[ Reply to This | # ]

Options
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 08:51 AM EDT
While this delay may or may not be short lived, in the context of their concerns
they really only seem to have a few options.

1. Continue to delay and attempt to block the acceptance of patents into the
lawbooks of EU countries.

2. Purchase Patent Protection Insurance from OSRM or other insurers and hope
it's sufficient.

2. Ignore threat and possibly invite patent lawsuits and/or court orders
impacting their operation at some unknown point in the future.

4. Others?

Looks like either one of the first two are their best options?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Software, wot software?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 09:00 AM EDT
The problem is allowing patents on obvious derivatives. These should *never* be
patentable. And there should be a cheap & easy way of overturning these.

However, an amazing innovation, even in software, should be protectable.

There is no real difference between software & hardware etc. It's only
because what's "obvious" in software is much harder to determine.

Fight the 98/99% of "obvious" patents? Yes. Including those on
software.

But patents have their place, and push for too much, and you will end up with
nothing.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Difficulty getting the message across
Authored by: eamacnaghten on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 09:18 AM EDT
I am in Cambridge, UK. I have written to my MEP on the issue, I have talked to my MP(Anne Campbell) on the issue.

The problem is that this issue is not foremost in their minds. What they tend to do is to go to the civil servants, who are meant to be experts, and ask them.

Unfortunately what seems to have happened is that these civil servants have been convinced that unless UK - and Europe - adopt silly US style patent legislation significant investment in a lucrative software industry in the country simply will not occur. They beleieve this despite their is absolutely no evidence of this. I suspect strongly that Microsoft and other such corporates are more than just partially responsible for seeding this attitude.

Also unfortunately the UK patent office is not above distorting the real facts a little, an example can be found in their FAQ.

I have found the most successful way of highlighting the idiocy of software patents is by example. Microsoft's patent on the Double Click (USPTO patent no 6,727,830) is a good one to use - especially early in the conversation.

Also - please let me point out the web site of the Federation of Freedom for Information Interchange.

What is needed (in Europe) for as many people as possible to contact their elected representatives, it does not matter if at local, national or european level, and to draw attention to the issues and point out the rocks that the ship is being navigated towards. Although Software Patents are encumbent in the US too it will not harm to do the same thing their. Also - if Europe does not implement Software Patents it will be good for the US too as that would provide incentive to sort out the mess there.

If you contact your Councillor, MP, MEP, Congressman, Senate rep etc remember - keep it clean, keep it polite, keep it informative and constructive and keep it helpful. Nothing is gained by idiotic zealotary and a lot can be lost.

Web Sig: Eddy Currents

[ Reply to This | # ]

Corrections here, please...
Authored by: jbeadle on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 10:06 AM EDT
... so PJ can find -em.

Thanks,
-jb

[ Reply to This | # ]

If Judges/lawyers/experts - Don't know, then how can innocent 3rd party users be harmed?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 11:11 AM EDT
Innocent 3rd party users of products and software can't possibly begin to
understand this stuff... if the judges and lawyers and everyone else can't
figure it out.

Even Darl is confused!

This is why the LAWS OF AGENCY combined with CONSUMER PROTECTION LAW will
prevail in any court case against innocent 3rd party users (commercial or
individual)! It's so complicated that when you buy ANYTHING these days (that
involves a product, and most products including children's Teddy Bears that
talk, use software and some kind of computer to execute some feature of the
product), so when you do buy anything... there is no way to know if the product
does not violate a patent. AND since users of Teddy Bears are not going to pay
OSRM $150,000 for insurance... CONSUMER PROTECTION LAWS and LAWS OF AGENCY and
any JURY, will NOT LET INNOCENT 3rd PARTY USERS be HARMED by PATENT or COPYRIGHT
claims against them by the lawyers for the owners of such IP.

This is true for commercial and individual users who just buy something software
related from a manufacturer, programmer, distributor, retailers, or a web site!
Software is software... innocent consumers are innocent consumers.

OSRM should have no market for thier offerings to any commercial or individual
consumer, however, they might have a market in the vendor area only!

[ Reply to This | # ]

A modest proposal
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 12:33 PM EDT
Since the patent applicant must provide prior art that impacts or limits a
patent's scope, and because defeating or defending a patent is expensive; let
the patent office issue patents regularly. However; if a patent is challenged,
and defeated, make the patent holder pay the challenger's legal fees. Then only
truly significant applications will be sought, or their patents litigated. This
is a fair approach because the (original) reason for obtaining a patent is to
benefit from it. Along with the benefit goes the cost of defense.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Still Opinion not Proof
Authored by: kawabago on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 01:05 PM EDT
While I wholeheartedly support prohibition of software patents these arguments
are still mostly opinion. In order to appeal to lawmakers we must put forth an
argument based on facts that cannot be disputed. We must also attack the
arguments supporting software patents to show their fallacy. I think it would
take a combination of lawyers, politicians and software experts to build an
argument that is unassailable. If we don't have a central repository to build
this argument we should create one.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

[ Reply to This | # ]

"I believe even SCO accepts the credentials of MIT"
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 02:59 PM EDT

Hmm... maybe not since their mathematicians disappeared ;)

RS

[ Reply to This | # ]

Patents - To correct or remove???
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 03:31 PM EDT

At one point, where patent law is concerned, I followed the conventional wisdom of "if it's broken, quite possibly all it needs is an adjustment to fix". The main reason I followed that was due to the fact that there's plenty of large businesses that, I suspect, would fight tooth and nail about having patents removed completely from software. That fight, again as I suspected, would lead to a settlement whereby each side gives some ground.

After reading the article, I've come to the conclusion that it's quite possible that the only solution is to remove Patents where the software industry is concerned.

I don't have either the knowledge or wisdom to know the outcome of that battle. I do, however, suspect it's going to be a hard battle compared to other battles the software industry has been involved in.

RS

[ Reply to This | # ]

Munich's Mayor on LiMux and Other Examples of Software Patents Hindering Progress
Authored by: blacklight on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 04:36 PM EDT
"I believe even SCO accepts the credentials of MIT." PJ

Never, ever either presume or assume anything about SCOG, their pinhead CEO or
their slimeball management team.

[ Reply to This | # ]

FTA, Australia and IP
Authored by: stevem on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 06:37 PM EDT
This is an interesting one for Australians, and unfortunately IMHO, is being
caught up in politics vs Right/Wrong.
I did a fairly brief analysis in the Andrew Morton Speech thread (from memory)
that looked at who/what how etc that some may find interesting.

The main problem for us in the IT field is that most Australians don't really
care about the IP issues. Their concerns are more related to impacts on the PBS
(Pharacutical Benefits Scheme) and the amount of American sourced TV shows we
could be forced to endure.
I personally, generally, prefer British shows - sorry :-)


The whole FTA with the USA exercise has been a fascinating exercise in the
observation of politics. What's good for Australia is almost irrelevant to the
two major political parties and their sparring matches for point scoring in the
lead up to the next Federal election.


Sigh. Too jaded and too cynical.


- SteveM

[ Reply to This | # ]

'Twas ever thus
Authored by: Tim Ransom on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 08:17 PM EDT
as this 30 year old cartoon will attest.

---
Thanks again,

[ Reply to This | # ]

Patents are how governments help businesses
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 09:40 PM EDT
A simplified version of why patents exist would be governments trying to help
local businesses (ie small startups) get a foothold into a business area to make
money, employ people and the government in return collects taxes on profits.
OK, so far it doesn't sound bad, right? So where is the problem. The problem
is that big companys are filing thousands of patents per year to keep the small
businesses from forming/starting. Or businesses are forming/created for the sole
purpose of filing patents to bring litigation against other businesses. In the
first case the government experiences a decrease in tax revenue per patent
filed. This lowers the percieved "Value" of patents to the
government. In the second case the government experiences an increase in costs
due to the increased legal pleadings and time used in courtrooms.
------------------------------------------------------
So here is my simple answer to help the government and
small businesses alike:
Allow only ONE patent per corporation/business entity that would last for 20
years. When that patent expires the business can register its new software or
widget for the next 20 years. A corporation/business may have only ONE patent
at a time. If a corporation/business wishes to register another patent, but
allready has a patent registered, they must donate the current patent to the
public domain before registering the new patent. This would increase the
"VALUE" of patents to the government while reducing costs.
Well whats your opinion of this idea? - go ahead and flame me if you want, I
dont profess to be a good businessman or anything else.
IANAL
IAJACW (I am just a computer wizard)
DACII (to lazy to register)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Linux Australia position paper on FTA
Authored by: leopardi on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 10:03 PM EDT
PJ, did you also get a chance to look at the Linux Australia position paper on the FTA? It says, in particular, that:
Producer/consumer balance of IP rights in general was clearly not considered in Chapter 17 of the FTA. The only balance mentioned is "between rights of authors, on the one hand, and rights of performers and producers of phonograms, on the other hand". (What about the rest of us?).

[ Reply to This | # ]

Questions About OSRM
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 07 2004 @ 10:05 PM EDT

Some interesting concerns have been asked on Linuxtoday about the legality of what OSRM is doing. PJ, seeing as you are their representative, could you forward these questions to the OSRM directors so they can answer them.

First, there are concerns about how OSRM is representing their indemnification "product".

The OSRM web site has a legal disclaimer that says in part: OSRM’s indemnification offering and services do not constitute an insurance product and should not be considered insurance. No description or representation of OSRM’s indemnification should be considered to be a solicitation for purchase of insurance.

The same OSRM web site has an OSRM press release that says: Results of First-Ever Linux Patent Review Announced, Patent Insurance Offered by Open Source Risk Management

A troubling thing about nearly all of the articles about OSRM is the frequent use of the terms insurance, financial coverage, or indemnification.

Second, it seems OSRM is not legally empowered to offer software indemnification. In fact, it might be illegal for OSRM to claim they will offer indemnification or insurance of any kind.

The voters and lawmakers in most states have enacted legislation that curtails that sort of freedom, and provides for regulation and oversight of the insurance industry. The Forbes article quoted OSRM founder Egger as saying "OSRM will skirt U.S. regulations on insurers by locating an affiliate company offshore, but won't go into details."

I don't see much point in Forbes, E-Week, UNC at Chappel Hill, or Linuxtoday providing bandwidth to either condemn, endorse, or defend a small fly-by-night private enterprise that has announced an intention to go offshore to avoid our laws and the government regulators that are charged with public oversight responsibilites for the domestic insurance industry.

OSRM is apparently going offshore to avoid the provisions of US law, and they want others to accept the risks, while they hold the contributions.

Third, it seems the lead counsel for OSRM is not the crackshot he's been made out to be. He has never served as lead counsel for patent related casework. He only has 3 years professional experience. Is it truly appropriate for a person with such minimal experience to be the frontman for what amounts to multiple millions of dollars of funds to protect Linux? Why hasn't this task been delegated to lawyers with far greater legal experience and knowledge of free software (eg Eben Moglen, counsel for the FSF)?

PJ, these are serious concerns. OSRM is asking for our money so they can provide legal protection for users of Linux. The pricing is so astronomical that only the largest companies can afford to pay OSRM. Yet at the same time, OSRM is attempting to circumvent US insurance laws by going offshore. Is this really the best way to protect Linux? Perhaps Egger has the best of intentions but is simply in over his head. It seems if he's trying to circumvent the legal system by funneling offshore insurance, then he will simply create more problems for customers of OSRM and cast even greater shadows over the legality of free software.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT: Why doesn't IBM move for summary judgement on GPL copyright infringement CC?
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 08 2004 @ 12:23 AM EDT
In a previous story, AllParadox speculates (interestingly) about a possible
sequence of IBM moving thru summary judgement... (IIRC he predicts Lanham Act
next)

One of IBM's Counterclaims is that SCO by distributing Linux on terms other than
the GPL and after it's GPL license has been terminated, is infringing IBM's
copyrights in JFS, etc.

It would seem to me, that if successful, that this would have some nice effects:
(1) stop SCO distributing Linux to support their Caldera customers, (2) show SCO
is infringing IBM's IP (not vice-versa), and (3) probably put the kibbosh on
their little license scheme.

Now I realize PSJ in favor of IBM on CC10, would also result in (3).

However the advantages of PSJ on this counterclaim, would still include (1) and
(2)

It is also seems to me that the the discovery required for this claim is
limited: (1) is SCO distributing it, (2) does SCO have a valid license (let em
try to show something other than the GPL), (3) does IBM have a valid copyright
in these materials. I expect IBM can deal with (3), and for (1) we have public
statements from SCO (e.g. Stowell in about August last year) saying they are
distributing Linux only to existing SCO customers.

Well the other point is that presumably SCO's defense is based on unclean hands
by IBM. Now if IBM's Linux activities are shown not to infringe SCO's
copyrights (the pending issue on CC10), then presumably that goes out the
window?

So, assuming IBM get PSJ on CC 10, why not include this as a next step?

Comments, thoughts, opinion, conjecture?

Quatermass
IANAL IMHO etc



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Munich's Mayor on LiMux and Other Examples of Software Patents Hindering Progress
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, August 08 2004 @ 03:05 AM EDT
I know that this isn't the correct thread but being the most recent, I thought I
stood a better chance of someone reading it and replying: It seems to me than
IBM "did an M$ shafting job" on SCO with project Monterey. That is
they went into partnership and then ended it and walked away with everything,
leaving SCO worse off (how many M$ partners can tell a similar story). That is
of course assuming SCO had rights to anything in the first place. So my question
is, if this is true are we as a community endorsing IBM's actions by being so
supportive of them ( or is that so anti SCO ) and how do we know that when IBM's
interest are at stake that they wont casually "do an M$ shafting job"
on us.

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UKPO questionaire
Authored by: vortex on Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 01:46 PM EDT

... back in 2000, when Edward Welbourne was asked, I gather by someone in the patent office, questions about patents on computer software and ways of doing business.

For the record, this was in reply to a patent office public consultation (you know, one of those occasions when bureaucracy asks for public comment on its plans, then ignores everyone that disagrees with them ...), as noted in the link on my (yes, vortex is Edward Welbourne) general page on "Intellectual Property".

---
The citizens of the United States must effectively control the mighty commercial forces which they have themselves called into being. -- Theodore Roosevelt.

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