|
Anderer's "Old Think" Tries to Justify A Dying Business Model |
 |
Friday, March 12 2004 @ 08:54 PM EST
|
Mike Anderer speaks at last, and I'm glad he has, because his justification is inspirational, to say the least. I understand now what the plan is, or was, because he spills the beans, and I also get it now why investors were willing to put up their stone cold hard cash to buy into this lawsuit.
Sadly for the lot of them, they put their money on the wrong pony.
His argument, boiled down to its essence is: Microsoft and/or its proxies will sue over and over and over until FOSS cries uncle, and all the largest open source software companies go out of business or are forced to cross license with Microsoft and their gang. That is what they want. The weapon of choice will be patents. Grab as close as possible to standards, patent, and then crush the opposition by licensing until the other side runs out of patents, leaving them vulnerable, at which point businesses, they hope, will say, I don't like being vulnerable. I'll use Windows instead.
What a lovely plan. 50 or more cynical, bogus lawsuits until FOSS is nothing but a hobby platform, like in the goode olde days.
So you can judge for yourself whether I have accurately understood his message here are some snips from his letter on Newsforge: In a world where there are $500 million dollar patent infringement lawsuits imposed on OS companies (although this is not completely settled yet), how would somebody like Red Hat compete when 6 months ago they only had $80-$90 million in cash? At that point they could not even afford to settle a fraction of a single judgment without devastating their shareholders. I suspect Microsoft may have 50 or more of these lawsuits in the queue. All of them are not asking for hundreds of millions, but most would be large enough to ruin anything but the largest companies. Red Hat did recently raise several hundred million which certainly gives them more staying power. Ultimately, I do not think any company except a few of the largest companies can offer any reasonable insulation to their customers from these types of judgments. You would need a market cap of more than a couple billion to just survive in the OS space. Since the GPL type license agreements push the liability to the users, who do you go after? I think this is a key problem. Nobody wants to be the ultimate guarantor for software that was free (or close to it). I think the dispute with SCO would have been settled a long time ago if everybody knew this was the last one. The problem is there will probably be hundreds or even thousands of these disputes in the future and the targets will be the companies with the deepest pockets. Even if the large vendors disclaim all responsibility initially, I do not think the customers will accept this from their vendors for very long. In the meantime, I don't see anybody being in a hurry to write the first big check. "The world of software is changing. I think everybody sees that part on the product side, but the economic underpinnings are changing too. It used to be you included R&D and patent development costs into your license add your costs and a markup and you could make a living. We relied on cross-licensing, licensing, and innovation, and our ability to prevent other people from copying our work without permission. Now things are shifting, but I am not certain anybody has completely figured out this new model, and if you think it is just any one company that is concerned about this, you are wrong.
There is just one problem with the plan. Most of the brains are on the other side of the table, as you may have discerned from the leaked memo and this article, and all of the pure love for software is, hence the backbone to fight to win is with us. If this is the plan, we will simply meet it. I believe the answer is vendor-neutral insurance, together with the will to fight each case to the death, so to speak, until these parasites decide to go sue somebody else.
Their loathsome litigation business model, which includes using the courts as an aggressive competitive weapon, is a misuse of the legal system. It's a form of blackmail, a leftover artifact from the dot.com bubble days. It can only work for so long before everybody gets sick of it and them and changes the patent laws, in my opinion. But in the meanwhile, let me ask you this: how's it going for SCO? Are they raking in the dough from anybody in any quantities? Without MS propping them up, where would they be today? Even with MS, how're they doing? As well as they expected?
No? Not well? And why is that?
Because there are millions of people in this world who love GNU/Linux software and despise SCO's way of thinking and their business model and are willing to stand up and say no. We're willing to research and testify and produce evidence and leak memos and use our considerable talents, for no money and at considerable risk, I might add, to defeat this monstrously ugly attack. SCO can't buy this at any price. Not even Microsoft can buy it, with all their billions. It's not for sale.
So far, we're winning by a mile.
Go figure.
Talk about your David and Goliath.
And we'll keep on doing it until they give up. Happily, the other side has forgotten something important. Businesses can't kill FOSS. They can benefit by using it if they play by the rules. The GPL rules. But they can't kill it. It wasn't and isn't predominantly written by business. It's written by individuals who wrote it for fun, not profit, and for the creative challenge. There are no weapons against that kind of creativity, barring martial law. And even then, it sprouts up like grass, pushing up through the sidewalk's concrete, reaching for the sun. Here's how Novell's Matt Asay, Director, Linux Business Office & Open Source Review Board, puts it: Commercial software developers need not fear Linux and the GPL that governs it. Instead, such companies should embrace Linux as an exceptional development platform, one that is free as water (and much more stable). Commercial hardware vendors and services firms like IBM have figured out how to make money on Linux - you should, too.
This, quite frankly, is what Microsoft fears. Microsoft can beat up on a Novell, or a WordPerfect, or name-your-favorite-computer-company. Microsoft cannot, however, beat up on a global, faceless army of developers who 'hack' 24/7. Now, life is bad enough for Microsoft when Linux encroaches upon its platform space (the Windows OS family). Microsoft will lose the OS war. More interestingly, as commercial software developers wake up to their rights to leverage the Linux platform and other GPL code, no computing device will be a safe-haven for Microsoft, including the desktop.
It doesn't hurt to have IBM1 and Dell2 and Intel3 and
Novell and maybe HP, on a good day, helping out. In a patent war between MS and IBM, IBM wins. They have more.4 Everybody has known for a long time that if you start a patent war, everybody loses. Patent law currently only works if everybody pretends it works.5 If every patent holder actually sued every time somebody used their patents, the entire system would collapse, because the simple truth is that there is no way for any company, including MS, to run a business without overlapping. Even the FTC has come out against the current patent system, because patents and software are not a good mix. It was a mistake. But it has given birth to cross-licensing, their business-model answer to the problem. Mr. Anderer's side has, it seems, come up with a plan to misuse that system to destroy FOSS. Something, I am sure, will give on that battlefield. Businesses now face a real choice: do they side with Microsoft and prop up this bully and its dying business? Or do they decide to recognize that there is money to be made, ethically, by using free software to benefit themselves? Only Microsoft and its minions will choose the dark side, because no one else will benefit but Microsoft and its minions. They set the game up that way, and look at their history of how they treat their "friends", let alone their "enemies", and then make your choice.
Whatever business chooses, we don't care. If businesses are too foolish to adopt a better mousetrap, fine. We don't need business. We're happy to help them if they wish, but it's business that needs FOSS, not the other way around. And as you may have seen, the GPL is a potent weapon to keep interlopers out of FOSS software, if necessary.
That is exactly what has dying proprietary software companies so flummoxed. They can't play the game by the old rules. Well, as Alan Greenspan
told a finance conference today, the working stiff has to be flexible and willing to change how he makes a living in this new world, maybe several times in a working life: "Time and again throughout our history, we have discovered that attempting merely to preserve the comfortable features of the present, rather than reaching for new levels of prosperity, is a sure path to stagnation," he said. He said it to justify outsourcing of jobs, the latest craze in business think. But if workers have to bend for the sake of the economy, so do businesses, like SCO and Microsoft. The world has changed, and MS and friends need to face it. The tombstone is already being written if they don't. If they think abusing the legal system will do anything but prolong their agony, they will find in the end that they are wrong.
And the thing about betting on the wrong pony is: you lose your money, not just the bet.
1
How can we move beyond traditional notions of R&D and intellectual property creation to nurture the intersections that lead to real innovation? Along those same lines, how do we measure innovation? A group of influential business and academic leaders (including IBM CEO Sam Palmisano) is committed to a broad-based national innovation initiative that will study critical aspects of this challenge and present concrete recommendations at a summit meeting later this year.
Are we ready to rethink how we protect and reward those who spend time and resources to create something new and better? Currently, a sizable percentage of patent application fees are diverted away from an overburdened U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. When you consider that the licensing of U.S. patents contributed more than $150 billion to our economy in 2001, proposed congressional legislation that would end this diversion of user-paid fees to other agencies is the right step. IBM and nearly 100 other companies and 28 associations are supporting it--even though this legislation will cost us money. -- "The fallacy about patents" February 4, 2004, by Nicholas Donofrio
2"What we try to do," (Dell CIO Randy)Mott says, "is to have an expectation that the technology issues will be resolved." Dell sells Linux-based systems and uses the open-source operating system in its IT architecture. "Linux is a good strategy, it's a good technology," Mott says, and companies shouldn't let intellectual-property issues get in the way of an effective IT strategy.
3 There is another friction issue which has to do with Intellectual property that we should talk a great deal about. And the trends here are not particularly favorable to our increased productivity. The number of software patents issued has skyrocketed in recent years. The number of patent software patents in the backlog according to the head of the patent office are expected to reach a million items. This leads to terribly increased litigation. Let me call your attention to this chart, which shows the actual judgments rendered in software Intelectual software cases over a 15 or so year period of time. So what you see is 5 million to four billion dollars change over the 15 year period of time. A large portion of the software talent and managerial talent in this country is associated with issues of this sort representing another element of friction. . . .When it comes to friction, raise the hurdle for litigation so that we don't get involved in a litigation wave and make the patent office more discriminating and more expeditious in evaluating filed cases. -- Andy Grove, Intel,
4 The above table tends to suggest a significantly negative correlation between the number of software patents granted to a company and its ability to bring innovative software products to market. Companies that form the backbone of the software industry: Microsoft, Adobe, Lotus, Novell, Borland, Oracle, and Sybase, have relatively few software patents, while companies that hardly have any market share: Hitachi, AT&T, Toshiba, Sharp, and Xerox, have many. . . .
IBM has a very strong software patent portfolio. It is oversized even in proportion to the size of IBM itself. This is a result of IBM's patenting every single trivial idea every employee ever comes up with, rather than having any great propensity to be truly innovative. IBM has never been considered synonymous with innovative software. IBM even has a patent, #5,247,661, on a software application to permit employees to automatically document ideas for later patenting. -- Negative Correlation of Innovation and Software Patents, Revised version of Appendix D of the League for Programming Freedom's submission to the Patent Office, January 25, 1994.
5Software patents are a major legal issue in the information society.
"Copyright is currently the right way to protect software publishers against piracy. Copyright provides a simple and very efficient protection to the software economy" says Matthias Schlegel, CEO of Phaidros. "Copyright is the prefered protection of SMEs and independent software developers." "EuroLinux strongly supports copyright." adds Harmut Pilch, speaking for the EuroLinux Alliance.
On the other hand, software patents allow one company to monopolize an idea of software (ex. patent EP0800142 on the conversion of file names between DOS and Windows) or an idea of business on the Internet (ex. EP0756731 on generating buying incentives from the distribution of cooking recipes), thus prohibiting other companies to use the same idea, even when implemented differently. Because software is always based on a creative arrangement of a few innovative ideas and many common ideas, all European software publishers are infringing on hundred patents among the 50.000 software patents owned by IBM, Microsoft, Sun or Sony, etc. "Thus, instead of protecting software publishers, software patents create a tremendous juridical uncertainty and allow large IT companies to completely control the software economy, block innovation and block competition by prohibiting one software to be compatible with another," says Stéfane Fermigier, CEO of Nuxeo.
"Software patents allow large IT companies to steal the intellectual property of smaller players, both by taking control of their copyrighted creations and by forcing them to disclose and trade their most competitive ideas in return for being allowed to live," adds Jean-Paul Smets, CEO of Nexedi. --
Collusion Discovered between BSA and European Commission
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:06 PM EST |
[Saw this on Yahoo Finance and thought it was interesting]
http://tinyurl.com/34olu
It seems to me
that Baystar and RBC are holding the bag and are slowly coming to that
realization.
Back in October Lawrence Goldfarb did an interview with Forbes
and said this: "We spent a lot of time calling around to potential licensees,
and we believe SCO is going to sign enough companies to make this an interesting
growth story."
They are now seeing that the company they gave their $50
million dollars to has produced $20,000 in Linux licenses. As far as growth
stories go, this one stinks. So much for the "HOT TIP" from Microsoft.
I
believe they were hoping for more MSFT and SUN like licenses. Somebody told them
that was just the tip of the iceburg. Well now they are scratching their heads.
Their options are either to try to get their cash back now or hope that SCO wins
all its lawsuits and *then* starts collecting some real license fees. Hopeflly
by now they had the chance to actually read up on many of the SCO cases and have
listened to the disasterous quarterly meeting. And they may also be hearing from
angry people whose money they are managing.
What would you do if you were
them? [ Reply to This | # ]
|
- Baystar and RBC are holding the bag - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:19 PM EST
- Baystar and RBC are holding the bag - Authored by: Alex on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:25 PM EST
- Baystar and RBC are holding the bag - Authored by: fmckee on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:04 PM EST
- Baystar and RBC are holding the bag - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:10 PM EST
- Invoke the warrant or redeem - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:38 PM EST
- Egomaniac - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:45 PM EST
- Baystar and RBC are holding the bag - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:54 PM EST
- Baystar and RBC are holding the bag - Authored by: jimbudler on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:08 PM EST
- Slightly OT: Tip of the iceberg? - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 02:24 AM EST
- connecting all the dots .... - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 02:29 AM EST
- Baystar and RBC are holding the bag - Authored by: JeR on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 03:33 PM EST
- Baystar and RBC are holding the bag With Microsoft's HELP! - Authored by: duratkin on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 05:24 PM EST
- Baystar and RBC are holding the bag - Authored by: Jaywalk on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 07:37 PM EST
|
Authored by: _Arthur on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:08 PM EST |
He wasn't supposed to disclose the Master Plan! [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: kbq on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:10 PM EST |
Please put news and urls, updates, here so people can find them easily.
Thank you.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:12 PM EST |
wow wow wow....
I might be the first post here. I'm enjoying the fact he didn't say it was a
misunderstanding.
However, how enforcable is an NDA anyhow?[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:13 PM EST |
The '50 or more lawsuits in the queue' refers to 50 or more lawsuits that
Microsoft is currently engaged in, mostly as the defendant.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: kbq on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:13 PM EST |
Please record mistakes for posterity here, so PJ can find them quickly.
Thanks. [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:25 PM EST |
I don't have a URL... maybe someone more enterprising than me can find
one... but I remember reading a quote by Richard Stallman
back when all of this SCO business first got started wherein he said that in the
scheme of things it (the whole SCO thing) was almost inconsequential. The real
problem, he stated was software patents, and the future problems to which they
would lead us.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: StLawrence on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:29 PM EST |
I own a software company (most of it, anyhow, along with Friends & Family).
My company makes innovative software development tools. We try to make
money the old fashioned way, by creating bits that are of value and selling
them. We'll keep on struggling as we have since we began. But this
message from Mike Anderer about competition by litigation really makes me
mad. We can't open-source all our stuff, but I'm going to find some code we
can open-source and join the battle. And I'm going to work on finding a way
to make our tools available to open source software developers cheap or
maybe even for free. Up until now this has been a spectator sport for me, but
no more. I'm joining the battle.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
- Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play. - Authored by: RealProgrammer on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:49 PM EST
- Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play. - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:38 PM EST
- Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play. - Authored by: Darkside on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 03:57 AM EST
- Wow! Welcome to the club. - Authored by: zapyon on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 05:30 AM EST
- And another one falls... - Authored by: the_flatlander on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 06:27 AM EST
- IT go home... at Eclipse, http://www.eclipse.org and "join in"! CPL vs GPL? - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 07:22 AM EST
- Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play. - Authored by: deep_throat on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 08:05 AM EST
- Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play. - Authored by: sward on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 10:38 AM EST
- Second that - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 11:31 PM EST
- Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play. - Authored by: juhl on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 06:28 PM EST
- Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play. - Authored by: adrift on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 06:31 PM EST
- Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play. - Authored by: haro on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 07:58 AM EST
- Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play. - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 08:41 AM EST
|
Authored by: LionKuntz on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:30 PM EST |
It is my interpretation of anderer's line, that M$ has 50 lawsuits against it
pending in the queue, that are somehow similar to the EOLAS lawsuit on embedded
programs patent.
He seemed to me to be saying that few companies can survive such an onslaught of
lawsuits simultaneously.
I am not sticking up for his position. I am just stating that is how I read it.
Look at it again and see if that interpretation is not a reasonable reading
based on the context of surrounding other sentences.
I do believe he used the platform to give his speech of thinly veiled threats to
Linux users that SCO is coming to get them, and their butts will be sore when
SCO gets done kicking it -- "buy the insurance policy" he advises.
His biggest FUD is still part of the most successful FUD campaign going: the
fraud that SCO Unix has much copyrighted core to it.
I keep posting a link to informational websites supporting the demolishion of
that FUD, but it always gets tacked on the end of fatigue-producing 350-long
message queues where it is hardly seen.
I do wish that this gets more commentary -- if it is defective analysis, show me
why. If it is consistant with overall reality, we are missing doing the research
that can have the quickest results at the lowest lawyer cost, and end the
controversy long before next year's scheduled trial(s).
In that spirit I again post the link and summary:
http://www.ecosyn.us/SCO_v_IBM_copyright_issues.html
SCO v IBM: SELECTED WEBPAGES CITATIONS OF COPYRIGHT LAW HISTORY RELEVENT TO UNIX
SYSTEM V COPYRIGHT CLAIMS STATUS
* NO copyrights for computer programs, source code or machine readable
binary were copyrightable in the US before 1980.
* Before 1976, mandatory notices were required on all copyrighted materials
in standardized mandatory forms -- failure to adhere to the law regarding
mandatory notices on published works forfeited what copyright protection was
available.
* Before 1976 copyright was not automatically conferred upon creating a
fixed tangible form -- copyright was limited to those works which complied with
the provisions of the prior law "The Copyright Act of 1909". Unix was
developed and distributed for seven years under this law.
* Distributing works, making one or more copies for sale, lease or loan,
constituted publication during the first seven years of Unix development.
* Since 1976, mandatory requirements for copyrighted works have required
deposit of copies with the Library of Congress within 3 months of first
publication. Unless Unix source code is in the Library of Congress it is not
copyrighted. Unless Unix System V is in the Library of Congress, it is in
violation of the 1976 revisions. Before 1976 "promptly" depositing
copies was mandatory, defined in caselaw as within one year of first
publication.
* Unix System V is a collection of modules, mostly public domain through
copyright forfeiture between 1969 and 1976.
* It is defined as fraud under the 1909 Copyright Act [§ 105] "shall
insert or impress any notice of copyright required by this title, or words of
the same purport, in or upon any uncopyrighted article" to post-fix
copyright notices upon works not qualifying for copyright.
* None of the 1976, 1980, or 1989 adjustments to Copyright laws and the
Berne Treaty permitted retroactive copyrights to previously forfeiting or public
domain works.
* Unix System V is basically public domain in the catagory of a compilation
or anthology. Only new material added after 1976, or after 1980 (when computer
programs first became copyrightable) could possibly qualify for copyright
status, and only those collections which complied with mandatory deposit with
the Library of Congress. Everything else is not in compliance with copyright
laws and treaties.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
- Anderer's "Old Think" Tries to Justify A Dying Business Model - Authored by: mikeca on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:51 PM EST
- Anderer's "Old Think" Tries to Justify A Dying Business Model - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:05 PM EST
- On the copyrightablilty of Unix - Authored by: RandomX on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:18 PM EST
- Anderer's "Old Think" Tries to Justify A Dying Business Model - Authored by: mflaster on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:31 PM EST
- No, PJ is exactly correct on this one - Authored by: trevmar on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:41 PM EST
- Copyright Analysis flaws - Authored by: RealProgrammer on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:07 PM EST
- Anderer's "Old Think" Tries to Justify A Dying Business Model - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 02:55 AM EST
- Anderer's "Old Think" Tries to Justify A Dying Business Model - Authored by: poncewattle on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 03:11 AM EST
- Anderer's "Old Think" Tries to Justify A Dying Business Model - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 03:53 AM EST
- Copyrights for software, pre 1980 - Authored by: pbarritt on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 08:01 AM EST
|
Authored by: Trepalium on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:30 PM EST |
Novell's 'free as water' analogy is interesting, and perhaps very apt. On one
hand it sustains us all, and allows all the living things on this planet to
continue to live. On the other hand, it has tremendous destructive potential.
It can carve out huge valleys in solid rock, destroy structures and buildings in
little time, and the presence or absence of it can drastically change the
surrounding area.
The destructive power of Free and Open Source is not
inconceivable. Look at SCO, for example. It has pretty much killed Unixware
and OpenServer. A better product for less, what's not to like for the customer.
It has altered IBM in many interesting ways. Many businesses have been grown
on the software, and others have been swept away.
On the other hand, how many
people have come to rely on Linux, Apache, sendmail, bind and other Free and
Open Source packages? The presence of the BSD TCP/IP stack bootstraped TCP/IP
availability in computers of any OS. BIND is the most common DNS server
software out there. What would the internet look like without these? Would it
even exist? --- You can't spell SCOUNDREL without SCO. [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:32 PM EST |
The one thing Anderer doesn't seem to get is that, even
though
SCO has been
spreading FUD to the effect that they will
sue linux endusers, none of their
lawsuits are against
companies just because those companies are using linux;
it's because those companies had a contract previously
with SCO. Companies
who had no dealings with SCO will not
be intimidated at all, unless they buy
into the FUD, which
will be unfortunate.
I wish there was a law against
falsely making claims ...
Oh wait, there is. I think it's rather strange
that you
can't go after SCO because of what they are making people
perceive from their message. [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:32 PM EST |
Bravo, PJ! Once again you have done us all proud with this article. I
nominate this one for the Groklaw Top Ten (or Hall of Fame -- in Slashdot
style). I really think that you were born to write about this stuff. Who else
can bring it all together in such a clear manner. Very few people. Keep up the
good work.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: _Arthur on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:33 PM EST |
Resistance is Futile: YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:41 PM EST |
Anderer is saying that Microsoft may have 50 lawsuits AGAINST IT in the queue,
each potentially for 500 million (like the Eolas suit.) By his logic, only a
large, well-funded company can defend itself against lawsuits like Microsoft vs.
Eolas.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
- NO NO NO! - Authored by: Jude on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:45 PM EST
- NO NO NO! - Authored by: Maserati on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 03:09 AM EST
- NO NO NO! - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 06:09 AM EST
- NO NO NO! - Authored by: sward on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 10:45 AM EST
- NO NO NO! - Authored by: mikeca on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:54 PM EST
- Yeah but... - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:07 PM EST
- Tora! Tora! Tora! - Authored by: Tim Ransom on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 12:24 AM EST
- Illiterati - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 02:33 AM EST
- Deep pockets - Authored by: TimMann on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 05:41 PM EST
- Did you miss the 'hundreds or even thousands' - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 10:38 AM EST
|
Authored by: Jude on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:41 PM EST |
Anderer said:
I think one real issue, that people are skirting, is who
will be the ultimate guarantor of IP-related issues in a world that is governed
by the GPL and GPL-like licenses.
What exactly is he getting at here?
Is he saying that everything on the planet
has to have a little tag on it
saying who gets the blame in the event of an "IP"
dispute? If, for example,
my refrigerator lacks such a tag, is he saying I can be
sued if it infringes
somebody's patents?
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:42 PM EST |
What may be a serious problem in the US, may well represtent an economic
oppurtunity elsewhere in the world since much of the world does not appear to be
prepared to follow the lead of the USPTO in the easy grant of software patents.
I would think that this issue should be analysed more in terms of the effect on
the competiteveness of the US economy, if it hobbles US business in the adoption
of GNUed software whose adoption elsewhere in the world is not restrained by
software patents that are effective only in the US.
The US will probably not succeed in getting the rest of the major economies in
the world to adopt the US position in the area of SW patents because, as I think
is obvious, the patenting practices of the USPTO in the software area result in
too great an economic cost to the economy in general to justify the
encouragement to inventiveness and the resulting economic benefits such
practices are intended to enhance. In too many cases, software innovations are
not sufficiently difficult or unique to justify the economic cost of the patent
that is awardable for them in the US.
In the end, rather than suffer the continuing degradation of the competitveness
of its economy relative to the rest of the world, the US will have to back down.
The question is when and how much damage will have been done to the US economy
before the realization of this is clear (or through lobbying is made clear)
enough to stir appropriate action on the part of US politicians.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:44 PM EST |
...Baystar funding the next SCO?
Who will be able to pitch this great idea that funding company X to "sue
GNU" will make them millions, after watching the SCO death spiral?
Who's going to be the next to claim they "own UNIX?"
I mean, isn't SCO pretty much their best shot?
MS can't touch Linux directly, They'd be back in front of the Honorable Judge
Kotelly in two shakes of a lambs tail.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:45 PM EST |
In light of this, how do you think this will effect M$ in the eyes of the legal
system that has found them guilty of their monopoly sins?
It seems like someone just opened the bag and the stench is starting to permiate
the room. How long before SCO starts pointing the finger saying "It's not
me."[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:47 PM EST |
At that point they could not even afford to settle a fraction of a single
judgment without devastating their shareholders. I suspect Microsoft may have
50 or more of these lawsuits in the queue.
So they mean to sue
us out of existence, then. Well then, MS, SCO, Mr. Anderer,
Bring it
OOOONNN!!
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:50 PM EST |
I remember that a few years ago when I took my first C++ course I wrote some
code on how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. So I'm warning you all
now that if I see any one eating or making a PB&j sandwich I may take you to
court. Unless, you pay me $699 for a PB&J Source License in which case you
then may eat as many PB&J sandwiches as you wish. Also, note that the
license is not transferrable so don't even think about sending your kids to
school with a PB&J sandwich without their own license.
_[=================]_
---~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~---
from under the bridge
I realize I'm only the hired help here but I don't do Windows.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Glenn on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:51 PM EST |
Includes the FUD that GPL'd software puts the onus on the end user for any
copyright violations. He evidently has not read any of Eben Moglen's articles on
this. He didn't even give the obligatory IANAL disclaimer.
I think that we should line up to support Dan Ravicher and his Public Patent
Foundation as we have supported Groklaw. This may be our best method of fighting
against the many ridiculous software patents.
Glenn[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: fmckee on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 09:52 PM EST |
Eben Moglen has been saying that the more troubling attack on FOSS will be in
the form of patents. The first impression I had after reading the NF/Anderer
article was this whole thing *is* about patents.
Mr Anderer is part of the problem, not the solution.
MS has been fortressing itself on the patent side with the not-so-recent new
hire in patent litigation. Does anyone think MS won't go on the offensive?
Even if a MAD-style patent war would destroy them? I think they will and if
Mono ever becomes a significant development platform, I suspect that will be a
high-value target.
Fortunately, IBM is currently on our side. They, and the rag-tag non-paid army
of Groklaw/Yahoo members are now battle hardended -- no thanks to SCO.
Bring it on! [ Reply to This | # ]
|
- Avoid infringement: use linux! - Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:42 PM EST
- Prior art - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 12:05 AM EST
- Arrogant - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 12:20 AM EST
|
Authored by: crs17 on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:05 PM EST |
I'm fascinated by language and am amazed how well Anderer manages to use
English to cover up what he's trying to say. He has a brilliant capability to
speak as a lawyer - to say something that seems to imply what he wants to say
and seems to have a fig leaf of truth covering it. To wit:
I
helped build the channels for most of the products that corporate America is
currently using and some they will be using soon.
What in the
world does "channels" mean here? He's trying to claim that he's been important,
but he doesn't give us more than a hint of anything he might have
done.
In several cases, I am finally finding or developing ways
to solve problems I have been working on for the last 20 years
I
imagine one of those problems is how to make money for himself and his cohorts
off of Gnu/linux without adding any value to it. Again, I can speculate wildly
because he's given no solid information.
Many thousands of
licenses have been sold to Unix over the years. I cannot think of any major
hardware or software company or even university that does not have a license
directly or indirectly."
Okay, there are Unix licenses out
there. What does this have to do with anything? And licenses are sold _for_
Unix, not _to_ Unix. Saying "to" gives a sense of singularity to the vendors of
Unix that they haven't had since the first years of AT&T
Unix.
If you see the world moving forward as a
(GNU/Linux/BSD/Unix)/Windows world ...If you consider this licensing an indirect
financing of SCO, then everybody (or at least the thousands of licensees) is
responsible at some level.
NO! The thousands of _paid_
licenses are for various Unixes, NOT linux. And except for SCOsource licenses
(all 5 of them) and licenses for UnixWare or whatever the SCO products were, the
thousands of Unix licenses out there have nothing to do with financing SCO,
because all of the Unix vendors have perpetuity licenses issued by AT&T long
ago.
This is all doublespeak, designed to obliterate the differences
between "(GNU/Linux/BSD/Unix)". Gnu is not Unix! Neither is linux. (Is that
Linux Is Not UniX? (-: )
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:05 PM EST |
One of the posts on NewsForge suggested that Anderer might be the mastermind
behind the whole IP war started by SCO. The only problem with this argument is
that SCO hired S2 in July 2003, but SCO supposedly started looking for Linux
infringement as far back as December 2002 or even as early as September 2002 as
I read somewhere once. I think McBride may have already been planning a
litigious parasite strategy before he became CEO.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: CyberCFO on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:08 PM EST |
I think one real issue, that people are skirting, is who will be the ultimate
guarantor of IP-related issues in a world that is governed by the GPL and
GPL-like licenses. I could easily see IBM, HP, Sun, and many of the other large
hardware players solving this problem tomorrow by settling the dispute with SCO
and maybe even taking the entire code base and donating it into the public
domain. I know this is what I originally thought would happen, at least the
settlement part. I am not certain what people who paid tens of millions for
licenses would say if what they paid for was now free, but that is a different
issue.
So here is admission that the plan all along was to get a
settlement out of IBM. Oh dear, then what have they gotten themselves into, and
how will they get out of it now.
At this point, I think the people at
SCOX really don't know what to do, and they are so far down the path that they
cannot go back and survive, so they plod on, sounding more and more ridiculous
with every utterance, trying to believe what they say
themselves.
Since the GPL type license agreements push the liability
to the users, who do you go after?
And here we are again, stating
something as if it were true over and over again, until eventually (hopefully)
everyone involved in the conversation operates as if it were. Well it is not,
and no amount of repeating it will make it so.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: MajorDisaster on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:08 PM EST |
So things have not happened the way they were supposed too, huh. The SCO vs IBM
has turned in to SCO vs "The Known Universe" for all practical
purposes. Not only a few surprises for the SCO-M$ crowd, what about the rest of
us? and what about IBM? If you had told them May 2003 that their greatest ally
would be a paralegal that was an avid GNU/Linux fan they would have called
security. :-) Not on the payroll but how many toasts have been made to Groklaw
at the local IBM watering hole?
Before reading Mr. Anderer's article on Newsforge and Groklaw I had just
finished reading the LinuxPro's interview with PJ. And after a week where things
appear to have begun to come apart at the seams for SCO. I feel that it is
really amazing how this challenge to FOSS and this website have tranformed the
way we think about GNU/Linux.
I first loaded Slackware on a box in '96 and have never seen the broader
"linux community" come together like this. Sure there are the geek
circles and such, but this has brought together a group much more diverse than I
have ever seen.
What a wonderful surprise. And what a kick in the head for SCO and M$...
They never saw THIS coming....[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: moogy on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:10 PM EST |
Anderer has reason to fear as he indemnified SCOG on
any and all losses
'in connection with the performance
of Services'
See: '7.0
INDEMNIFICATION' of Anderer/scog Contract
Iam wondering again about the
Microsoft license and whether
that was really a license or a funding scheme
disguised as
a license. Didn't Anderer/S2 get some kind of
'placement
fee' for that?
As they say 'we all hang together or we
all hang seperately --- Mike Tuxford - irc.fdfnet.net #Groklaw
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you,
then they fight you, then you win. --Gandhi
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: droth on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:21 PM EST |
To quote a friend of mine, this man is garbage wrapped in skin.
He appears to
be perfectly comfortable with the idea of using the legal system as a
preferred means of exerting leverage against business competitors. This
is so foreign to my way of thinking, I can't really describe my
revulsion.
There was an idea once that businesses would compete in the
marketplace, and that the market would choose the winners. That sounded like a
good idea to a lot of people. But I don't think we've got any place on Earth
right now where that can actually happen. In the USA at least, we've got a
legal system that permits exploitation - c.f. The SCO Group. Their suit against
Daimler-Crysler is a complete fishing expedition, and they admitted as much in
their conference call.
And Mike Anderer and his ilk are here to help promote
that kind of business. They are in the business of playing the percentages in
the courtroom, not actually building anything or providing any utility for an
end-user. These people are leeches. [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:28 PM EST |
I don't think Microsoft's would be dumb enough to
enter in a Patent war with IBM.
Thinking about that, maybe all this SCO stuff is just a
test, to check if IBM is suficiently commited to Linux
and see how far would they go to protect Linux.
On the other side, it would be nice to start a legal fund
just to contest every of the Microsofts patents,
searching for prior art, etc. even on patents that don't
relate in any way with open source projects.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:28 PM EST |
``...the working stiff has to be flexible and willing to
change how he makes a living in this new world, maybe several times in a working
life:
"'Time and again throughout our history, we have
discovered that attempting merely to preserve the comfortable features of the
present, rather than reaching for new levels of prosperity, is a sure path to
stagnation,' he said."
He said it to justify outsourcing of
jobs, the latest craze in business think. But if workers have to bend for the
sake of the economy, so do businesses, like SCO and Microsoft. The world has
changed, and MS and friends need to face it. The tombstone is already being
written if they don't. If they think abusing the legal system will do anything
but prolong their agony, they will find in the end that they are
wrong.
Doggone it, PJ, that was excellent! I have been
thinking this is what's happening for a number of years now as I've listened to
large proprietary software vendors rail against FOSS. And now even Alan
Greenspan may be coming around.
Though some folks don't think much of it,
some of these ideas seem to be what ran through the Cluetrain Manifesto.
Microsoft, and companies like them, are still of the mindset that they are the
font of all knowledge, spoon feeding the masses their latest products, and
you'll like it, dammit, else there must be something wrong with you.
(Plain old-fashioned arroganceseems to take root in a corporate management once
the corporation reaches a certain size, wealth, market-share, etc.) FOSS turns
that on it's head. The customer may, and usually does, know what's best for
them and when the megacorporations don't give them what they want, they're not
just going to sit there and accept it.
If accepting change is good enough
for us plain folks, it's good enough for corporations, too. They do, after all,
believe they have the same, if not more, rights than real people (though only
through a court clerk's artistic license). It's only right that the corporations
go through the same trials as regular people.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:45 PM EST |
My skepticism went into overdrive when I read Anderer's comments.
He says to be saying: everybody settle with SCO or the apocalyse is coming!
This adds to my impression that SCO and their BayStar pals are adding fuel to
the Microsoft fire every chance they get.
Now the question in my mind - is wouldn't Darl and Ralph and so on want this to
be the impression. "Gee, you guys better settle, we've a ton of money
behind us this idiot campaign."
Regarding SCO, and I don't really have any evidence either way - but it seems to
me, more likely that MS would be more likely involved in deliberate mischief
making by exploiting the situation, rather than the initiator.
The thing that reeks of disassembling is the stock angle. The stock angle dates
back to mid-2002, and from mid-2002 till about March-May 2003, the thing looked
more like one of the usual Canopy attempts to get some money out of some
contractual partner (IBM), and make money from stock trading (10b5-1s etc.)
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Khym Chanur on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:46 PM EST |
I could easily see IBM, HP, Sun, and many of the other large hardware players
solving this problem tomorrow by settling the dispute with SCO and maybe even
taking the entire code base and donating it into the public domain. I know this
is what I originally thought would happen, at least the settlement part.
So, is he saying that he thought that IBM would buy SCO and then put
SysV into the public domain? Or that IBM would pay off SCO, then release
Linux into the public domain? [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:54 PM EST |
According to him, this is about an attack by MS on Open Source.
According to him, this is the start of a patent attack.
Question:
- Why are there no patents involved?
- Why is the "strongest" form of IP that are involved, are
non-existant trade secrets (as SCO themselves have admitted), and the laughable
theory that SCO controls all of IBM's own code?
Conclusion:
The version in his story can't be the truth, whole truth, or nothing but the
truth.
There is something very wrong with his story.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: glimes on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 10:54 PM EST |
Last night, I went to bed quite worried that perhaps
something untoward had
happened to Mr. Anderer; and
it is with significant relief that I see he is
still
out there.
But one phrase in his writing jumped out at me. He
asserts,
"... the GPL type license agreements push the liability to the users
..."
Is this true? Have I missed something fundamental?
If the GPL
really does shift liability to the end user
then I have definitely misunderstood
the license.
Can someone inform me on
what liabilities an end
user
might have under the GPL?
Or is Anderer defining users with
the assumption
that all use of GPL software involves modifying it
and
distributing the results?
--- Greg "Dammit Jim, I'm a Programmer,
not a Lawyer" Limes
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:01 PM EST |
Anderner is a parasite. The Kato Kaelin of technology. And, like a good leech,
he found a leaf to hide under when the heat's on. Here is living proof that
money and value are two different things. He all but admitted they set this up
as an IBM buy-out scheme.
And I'm not worried about winning this fight. What I'm more worried about is
what happens after, when the open source floodgates open and it goes from the
fringe to hip and cool.
I am a little worried success may be a more difficult challenge for OSS than a
has-been little company in Utah or MSFT. [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:02 PM EST |
Some folks here might be interested in this speech that he gave last month regarding intellectual property
rights.
As usual with Greenspan, he raises far more questions than he
answers. He seems to assume as a starting point that protection of IP is a good
thing, but he seems open to the idea that protection for IP should get weaker,
not stronger, if the US economy is to keep growing.
It'll be interesting to
see if anyone else in Washington is influenced by this speech -- and how.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: gdeinsta on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:03 PM EST |
Just my reactions to the first 44 paragraphs of the SCO amended counterclaims vs
IBM.
11. Denies - that TSG "acquired Original SCO's rights to Unix
in 2001"? What's that about? [No, your honor, we don't have any rights to the
software. We're just here to waste your time. Nice courtroom. Decorate it
yourself?]
15. Actually uses the phrase "Original SCO". Wow.
27.
Denies that "SCO itself supported [the GPL] as a Linux company for many years".
[All a misunderstanding.]
29. Denies that Caldera, Inc. was founded in
1994. Denies that Caldera was founded "to develop Linux-based business
solutions". [Company history on the website? Tosh.]
30. Denies that
"SCO began its business as a developer and distributor of the Linux operating
system". Denies that "By 2001, according to SCO, it led the world's largest
Linux channel with more than 15,000 resellers worldwide". [Your honor, we never
officially said that, it was a rogue CEO, errr, marketer.]
31. Denies
that "According to SCO, it was one of the first companies to tailor Linux
open-source code from various sources into sound discrete products". [Rogue
marketer again. Really.]
32. Denies that "SCO has continued to make
Linux source code available for download through its website". [Your honor,
that wasn't us, it was those Linux hackers, they put a virus into our firewall
or something.]
33. Flatly denies that "The viability of SCO's product
offerings has depended in large measure upon the efforts of the open-source
community in enhancing products and making them compatible for use across
multiple software and hardware platforms. Indeed, SCO incorporated certain code
licensed pursuant to the GPL into its proprietary Unix products. SCO has also
relied on independent developers in the open-source community, such as Linus
Torvalds, in order to release upgrades of SCO's Linux-based products". [I could
have made up a better system anytime. With my eyes closed. Look, my eyes are
closed right now.]
34. Denies that "SCO facilitated the adoption of
Linux". Denies that UnitedLinux was "an initiative to streamline Linux
development and certification around a global, uniform distribution of Linux for
business". [Sorry, can't hear you, my eyes are closed.]
36. Denies that
"According to SCO, it fully embraced the open-source model". [That wasn't my
press release. IBM forged it.]
37. Denies something but I'm not sure
what - possibly that they currently have products that are released under
open-source licenses.
38. Denies that "SCO's collection of trademarks
constitutes its most important intellectual property". [Your honor, I am
insulted!]
39. Admits Linux-related activity but denies all details.
[Oooh, he can't prove I done it!]
40. Denies that SCO gained any
business benefits from contributing to open-source probjects. [Naah - I just
felt sorry for the poor buggers.]
41. Flatly denies that "SCO also
fostered and supported the development of additional open-source and Linux
enhancements through the Open Source Development Lab and through participation
as a key member of many industry standard and open-source initiatives". [Wasn't
me, mate.]
42. Calls IBM a big cheater for not telling SCO about its
plans to invest in Linux during Monterey. [Come on! You can't expect me to
read the newspapers!]
44. Denies that IBM's contributions and those of
other companies were proper or legal. Denies that "SCO has included IBM
contributions to Linux in Linux products that SCO has distributed under the
GPL". Denies that recipients of SCO's distributions are "entitled to the
protections of the GPL with respect to... contributions, included in SCO's Linux
distributions". [They stole it all from me! I'm entitled to steal it from
them!]
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: snorpus on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:08 PM EST |
I'm sure IBM, Red Hat, Novell, etc., all have advisors, consultants, investment
bankers, and so forth involved in these cases. Yet have you ever seen more than
a brief, mostly non-committal comment from any of them?
Just as Darl can't
seem to pass up an open microphone, it takes just a week or so to flush Mr.
Anderer into the public eye, and, after trying to impress us with a rather vague
personal history, he essentially "spills the beans" on how MS and SCO intend to
counter the threat that FOSS presents to them.
Business Models based upon
scarcity only work so long as the good in question remains scarce. Railroads
prospered in the late 1800s - early 1900s because there were no efficient
competing alternatives. As highways were developed in the mid 20th Century
(aided by government sponsorship), the railroad industry went into decline.
(I'll admit the previous is somewhat simplistic.)
Arguably, the same pattern
has occurred in communications, fuel (coal, oil), telecomm services, etc. High
prices while the product is scarce, and lower prices as the product becomes a
commodity.
Historically, a "business model" has had a lifetime measured in
decades or perhaps centuries: feudal Europe, colonial US, the plantation south,
the appalachian coal and lumber era. Today, however, business models can be
birthed, grow, and die within a single decade (e.g., the dot-com era).
Just
as we all have personal life cycle, so too do corporations and business models.
USSteel, Westinghouse, the Pennsylvania Railroad, Standard Oil... are all shells
of their former selves, if they even exist. General Electric is nothing like it
was 100 years ago, or even 30 years ago. IBM used to be the epitome of
proprietary software, now it's the champion of FOSS to many.
Another example
that just occurred to me... the western half of the United States would not have
been populated if water rights had remained proprietary.
--- 73/88 de
KQ3T ---
Montani Semper Liberi [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Xenographic on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:11 PM EST |
Okay, I'm not a lawyer, much less one who specializes in patents. I am,
however, a mathematician who has done some game theory.
Basically, ALL companies are vulnerable to something I have dubbed an "IP
Vampire." Whereas other businesses have products, which make them
vulnerable to counter-suits over patents, an "IP Vampire" has no
products. It has nothing but patents, lawyers, and enough capital to sue. It
is NOT vulnerable to counter-suits, so they have only to weigh their case:
license the patent, or settle. Either of these costs the business they sink
their teeth into. Even defending themselves successfully costs them money.
It's a no win situation for the business they bite. Enough of them can drain
any company. Anyone who sponsors them is short-sighted. As long as it is
legal, the competition can do this just as well as they can. For a monopoly to
do this, one might think it could raise anti-trust issues, but I suspect a
lawyer would have to make that arguement, and I am not one.
Microsoft is every bit as vulnerable to these as the next company. It nearly
got hit for 500M thanks to Eolas. They should be glad that that patent did not
have so much prior art. They cannot win them all.
If this is legal, everyone who can do this will. At some point, they will have
to sponsor such suits just to stay alive (or to try to). If it's not legal,
game over. I hope that someone can eventually find a way to straighten much of
this out. Personally, I would end software patents for starters... software is
just mathematics, and anyone who says otherwise is spouting nonsense. I do not
agree that mathematics should ever be patented. We know that it is not
necessary to drive mathematical innovation, after all. Ask Euclid and company.
I can only wonder how much mathematical progress would have been lost if all the
works of antiquity could not have been preserved... we had all too few copies of
the great mathematical works to learn from for too long, after all...
But I digress. The principle behind an "IP Vampire" is simple.
Defending against them is futile. I suspect that Microsoft is thus banking on
the only principle of that game to their advantage--whoever has the most money,
especially if they move first, wins.
But that would eliminate all competition. If our anti-trust regulators are that
asleep at the switch, well... something will have to be done... I know all to
well that if you don't like the rules, you have to change the game. I know a
few other games to play. I would rather not play any of them, however. It is
like the movie "WarGames" -- the only way to win is not to play.
In the mean time, I think that publicity will probably suffice. The more people
who know why they do not want to do business with Microsoft, or anyone else who
promulgates these insidious "IP Vampires" the better...[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: wvhillbilly on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:14 PM EST |
here's what I see happening.
One of the big problems with software patents is some of them are so broad
they're almost the equivalent of patenting the automobile. And there are so
many of them it's virtually impossible to keep up with them, and it's almost
impossible to write anything software wise without infringing *somebody's*
patent. According to an article on the Knoppix website,in Europe alone where
software patents are currently banned there are some 30,000 software patents and
a whole army of patent attorneys ready to unleash them if and when they are
legalized. <alarmist view> Now here's what I see happening if a patent war
breaks out: The software industry will bankrupt itself with lawsuits, and only
the patent attorneys will benefit. Then all the patent attorneys will go broke
because there will be no one left to sue. </alarmist view>
Seriously, though, even if no patent war erupts, one of the biggest problems is
developers have to waste time and money trying to cover their backsides from
infringing somebody's patents instead of spending the time innovating, or risk
being sued into oblivion by some parasitic IP company or some hotshot patent
attorney out to make a fast buck. I agree with those who would like to see all
software patents done away with. There is just too much room for abuse.
IANAL, IANAProgrammer. Just my opinion.
---
What goes around comes around, and it grows as it goes.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: stevem on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:18 PM EST |
I suspect Mr Anderer may not have quite thought thru the whole idea of chasing
down patent infringers.
This is not just a USA issue, this is a global issue. Look at how hard it is for
the RIAA to stop file trading. Look at the dirty tricks campaign Microsoft is
conducting by country shopping to block Lindows(tm).
Winning Patent violation for 1234 in the USA doesn't imply winning the same
patent violations on a global scale. IMHO FOSS development will simply shift to
the country that protects it. Much like OpenSSH is/was predominately developed
in Canada.
I seriously doubt that Microsoft, IBM and Intel combined have the wealth and
resources to enforce every single patent violation on such a massive and global
scale that Mr Anderer is implying would happen.
Further, as in the current blacklash seen in Western countries with the current
shift of programming and the like to poorer countries; the backlash against the
USA itself for being seen to make such an imperialistic move (against
"ideas") would be, IMHO, on a scale like nothing seen before.
It would easily be seen and used by local political interests as a very strong
protectionist stand. And would in all probability be highly successful.
I have no doubt that those engaging in such moves would make a great deal of
wealth in the short term. I also have no doubt that the damage to the USA as a
whole would be huge in the longer term.
How long would it take for Country XYZ to realise that they could effectively
gain a monopoly on FOSS programming talent by not allowing S/W patents and
refusing to enfore USA ones??? This is the scenario that Mr Anderer's grand plan
could lead to.
As others have mentioned, and one beautiful deconstruction of his newspeak, his
letter is little more than FUD fuel for the fire. The Plan does NOT survive in
the cold hard light of reality.
-SteveM
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: mikeca on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:25 PM EST |
I worked for 12 years at a small semi-conductor company, although I was in CAD
software development. Patents are a fact of life in the semi-conductor business.
A small semi-conductor company will get sued by all the big boys, IBM, AT&T,
Intel, TI, Motorola, Philips, … Usually, they are just after a small percentage
of your revenue, but one large semi-conductor company, who I will not name,
tried to use its patents to put the company I worked for out of business. In the
end they failed, but it took many years of litigation. As a result of this
company’s extreme interest in having its own patent portfolio, I am the author
or co-author of about 10, mostly software, patents.
From talking with many patent lawyers at that time (10 years ago), they all
thought software patents were of questionable value, because very few of them
had ever been litigated. IBM and AT&T had big portfolios of software patents
from the 60s and 70s, but they never sued anyone over them. Their patent
enforcement group concentrated on hardware patents. Now I think this situation
may be changing. Lots of software companies have started suing over software
patents, and they have sometimes won.
The biggest problem with software patents is that the patent office knows almost
nothing about software. I know this from having read many of the initial
rejections letters (your application is always rejected the first time). It was
clear that the examiner did not have a clue what my patent application was
about. He would always send you a list of patents that he thought were the same
as yours. Of course, they had nothing to do with your application. We use to
joke that we could probably patent the doubly linked list as an improvement on
the singly linked list (but we never tried anything that silly).
The truth is, the bigger a company is, the more likely it is to get sued for
patent infringement. M$ is the biggest target for patent lawsuits because they
have the biggest pockets. Open Source is really not a very good target for
someone in it for the money. There are no big, rich companies to sue. You could
start suing end users, but you are not going to collect much from each end user.
It is much easier to sue M$ and hope for a big settlement.
The real threat to OS, of course, is someone just out to kill it. Patents can be
used to force a competitor out of the market. Polaroid forced Kodak out of the
instant film market with patents. The OS community has to be able to move
quickly, and replace threatened technology with alternatives. In the early days
of the Internet, almost all images were GIF format. Then somebody (Unisys?)
decided they had a patent on the LZW compression used in GIF files, and wanted
royalties. In a short time, most images on the Internet were JPEG. (I’m sure the
LZW compression patent is expired now; so don’t worry about using GIFs
anymore).
One thing OS can do is to try to patent some of their own ideas. I know this is
a lot of paper work and expense, but having your own (GPL licensed) patents is a
good defense against other people’s patents.
Another thing I worry about is an individual (or a rouge company) putting in a
patent application on an idea, and then donating the code into an open source
project, with the plan to come back and start suing people when the patent is
granted. Rambus just did this with the JDEC standards committee. Wang did it
with the IEEE in the 1980’s. The IEEE and JDEC now require you to disclose any
patent applications you have filed or are thinking about filing on technology
you donate to their standards committees. OS should require people/companies
donating to OS software to do the same thing. And you have to be very clear that
you are required to disclose all pending application or plans to file
applications. Rambus was sued for fraud for donating technology they had pending
patents on to JDEC, and then suing people using that technology. Rambus lost in
the lower court, but the appeals court ruled the people at JDEC were unclear
whether the patent disclosure policy only applied to granted patents or whether
it included pending applications, so Rambus was not guilty of deliberate fraud,
even though the actual written policy said they were required to disclose
pending applications.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: ErichTheWebGuy on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:25 PM EST |
PJ, thank you for your inspirational words. We all need a battle cry once in a
while.
We all know that FOSS has reached critical mass, and it is only a matter of time
before greedy companies like Microsoft and SCO will be forced to change their
thinking, or be swept away. Ya hear that Darl? SWEPT AWAY! Believe that!
Look at IBM, with its huge warchest and 80-foot tall fire-breathing dragon
lawyers. If it wasn't worth fighting for, IBM would have setled for a few
million months ago.
Look at Novell, who is renewing itself as a top vendor of enterprise software.
Look at RedHat, who believes in FOSS not only in principle, but in practice.
They have proven it by putting up millions of their own dollars to defend YOU
AND ME, the innocent end users.
Intel, Cisco, HP, and many others realize that there is no stopping an idea.
Especially not one as powerful, and as right, as FOSS. There are a lot of ways a
company can be profitable due to FOSS, and the Microsofts and SCOs of this world
had better start taking a long, hard look at their shady and unethical business
practices, lest they be swept away by the unstoppable tide of FREEDOM!
WE WILL PREVAIL!
</rant>
---
Striving daily to be RFC-2550 compliant[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: nonpartisan on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:39 PM EST |
Microsoft, SCO, et. al. can continue patenting anything they want. What they
don't seem to realize is that other people (including those in open source
development) will come up with other, and typically better, ways of doing
things. Typically, said company appears to come back to doing it the way that
is popular.
I believe Microsoft used to use binary files of their own creation to store
information about projects written in their development environments (Visual
BASIC, Visual C++, etc.). Today, in the .Net environment, they use straight
XML. When I had a problem with a path not pointing where I needed it to
(forgive me, it was for a college course), I was able to edit one file and point
it to the right path. OpenOffice decided to use their own file format that was
based on an open standard. I suspect it won't be too long in the future when
Word's built-in format is based on a common standard -- such as XML.
If someone comes along and patents something, we'll just find another way to do
it. Patents can be a hindrance, but only temporarily.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:42 PM EST |
I believe the main thrust of the first battle against software patent
strangulation will be the exposition and compilation of prior art. The Open
Source Community has many members who were present during the birth of modern
computing, and can testify to the first appearance of almost any specifiable
idea. This Community needs only a registry of ideas, a sort of skeleton
outline, on which to hang its threads of testimony and documented history.
The best registry would be a selected subset of software patents, and the best
institution to create and maintain such a registry would be Groklaw. If PJ can
begin to list the patents that MS and its allies are registering, and attract
one or more patent lawyers to teach us how to read them, the many eyes of
Groklaw will analyze each patent and create a sort of 'call for prior art' for
each idea therein.
We will then see what portion of patented software ideas are, by any sane
measure, stupid claims. I'm certain the fraction will be so embarassingly
significant that the US Congress will be forced to denounce software
patentability in order to save the US Patent Office.
-AIB.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 12 2004 @ 11:48 PM EST |
Remember Apple suing Microsoft in the early nineties for infringing their GUI
patents? Imagine Apple winning? Apple would be much bigger, Microsoft much
smaller, and Linux users left with a choice between strange and inconvenient
user interfaces.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
- Nightmare - Authored by: Ted Powell on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 01:10 AM EST
- Nightmare - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 03:56 AM EST
- Nightmare - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 11:09 AM EST
- Nightmare - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 05:47 PM EST
|
Authored by: RedBarchetta on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 12:15 AM EST |
Here's a snippet from an interview with Michael Anderer in this Newsforge
article:
"[..] I could easily see IBM, HP, Sun, and
many of the other large hardware players solving this problem tomorrow by
settling the dispute with SCO and maybe even taking the entire code base and
donating it into the public domain. I know this is what I originally
thought would happen, at least the settlement
part."
So, Mr. Andere believed that IBM, Sun or HP
would "settle this problem" by settling with (read: buying out) SCO so the UNIX
code can be made public domain. Some interesting questions/points
arise:
How did Mr. Anderer derive this settlement scenario? Could
it be that Ralph Yarrow and Darl McBride told him this would be the ultimate
outcome if they filed a few nuisance suits? And Mike's help was needed to shore
up the "war fund?"
If they wanted to be bought out, doesn't this
tell us they really didn't want the UNIX business anymore? Did it
finally dawn on them that they paid $38 million for a pig-in-a-poke, and are
attempting to redeem their mess through harrassment-type litigation? For 30X to
50X what they paid for it?
Does this also reveal that SCO was lying
to the public about the prospects of their IP property? Here's SCO painting a
rosy picture in their August
14, 2003 Press Release:
"McBride continued, 'This is our
second consecutive quarter with net income and positive cash generated from
operations. [..]'
"'We expect that revenue for our fourth quarter,
ending October 31, 2003, will be in the range of $22 to 25 million. The
magnitude of our SCOsource licensing opportunities and our confidence in the
SCOsource revenue pipeline is growing each quarter,' said
McBride."
At about the same time of this press
release, Mike Anderer is
e-mailing Chris
Sontag about ways to get more cold cash into their litigation "warchest."
Including getting "corporate development" money from Microsoft (read: litigation
money)
Summary:
- Mike Anderer reveals that SCO being
bought-out was a primary goal, most likely at the suggestion of McBride, Sontag
& Yarrow.
- SCO stating publicy that it was "confident" in their
*quarterly increasing* SCOSource revenue.
- Yet, at about the same time, SCO
is actively seeking outside sources of income, using Mike Anderer as the
go-between, all the time knowing full-well that SCOSource was never going to
make money.
Conclusion:
The lawsuits have always been
an extortive attempt to get SCO bought-out; this would make Darl McBride, Chris
Sontag, Blake Stowell, Ralph J. Yarrow, et al multi-multi-millionaires (tens of
$millions each). They never believed that SCOSource would amount to any
substantial earnings; it was a front for their buyout plan from the very
beginning.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 12:17 AM EST |
In one of the early Halloween papers, there was a hint that Microsoft saw
copyright litigation as one of Linux's weakest points. This SCO lawsuit
seems
to be the result.
Now we have 'Fud' Anderer's Halloween X memo hinting that
Microsoft is
considering using patents in a massive attack on open source, with
lawsuits directed against 50 or more targets. (Some might come from
SCO-type
stooges.) As the old adage goes, "To be forewarned is to be
forearmed." We need
to come up with a counter tactic.
In the corporate world, a good patent
portfolio offers a good defense. If
someone threatens to sue IBM over a patent,
IBM can respond, "Do and
we'll sue you for ten times as many infringements. Why
not just cross-
license."
One of the major open source organizations should
start a patent
porfolio with a GPL-type license that grants permission to use
open
source patents under several conditions, one of which would be a
cross-
licensing agreement with the open source world. Even a handful of
strategically placed patents could offer quite a bit of leverage.
Anyone
who wanted could donate patents to this portfolio. Particularly
good ideas
could even be carried forward by open source lawyers so
they become patents. Do
the legal paperwork right and a donated patent
could be a tax-deduction. It
could also become a place for high tech
firms going out of business to place
their otherwise unenforcable
patents. And since the goal wouldn't be to make
money on the patents,
merely to cross-license them, it should prove popular
with
businesses. Standards groups who feel they need patent protection
could
place them with this group.
It might also be good to develop a Prior Art
Database with legally
bulletproof time stamping and public access. Someone who
gets a useful
idea could post it there, perhaps getting legal help with the
wording.
Then if someone else tries to patent the idea, the Prior Art Database
could be used to say, "Nope, that idea is already well known." With a bit
of
pressure, patent examiners could be forced to consult the database
before
granting a patent. The database would be an excellent counter to
a lot of
all-too-obvious business and software patents (i.e. one-click
online
sales).
--Mike Perry, Inkling Books, Seattle
http://www.InklingBooks.com/ [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: ErichTheWebGuy on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 12:30 AM EST |
I think we should write an open letter to all these people. I am furious! I had
resolve to join the fight before, and I feel like I have been doing my part by
being an active member of the FOSS community, but now I'm just mad. (I do
realize that we hafta be civil and adult tho :)
Any takers?
---
Striving daily to be RFC-2550 compliant[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 12:38 AM EST |
GrowLaw fans might want to check out the excellent online
Technological
Innovation and Intellectual Property Newsletter
at:
http://www.researchoninnovation.org/tiip/index.htm
It has a
particularly good collection of articles on patent law.
Some of the facts
are disturbing. Since the early 1980s, there has been a
700% decline in the
number of patents rejected for "obviousness." The
result: a lot of really dumb
patents.
--Mike Perry, Inkling Books, Seattle
http://www.InkliingBooks.com/ [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: bobn on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 12:43 AM EST |
Since the GPL type license agreements push the liability to the users, who do
you go after?
The GPL does no such thing, at least no more than any
other license, especially EULAs which attempt to relieve the manufacturer of all
responibility.
Also, see Timeline vs. Microsoft, a *real* case in which it
was found in a *real* court that Microsft's abuse of Timeline's "IP" left *real*
users open to suit.
I think the dispute with SCO would have been settled
a long time ago if everybody knew this was the last one. The problem is there
will probably be hundreds or even thousands of these disputes in the future and
the targets will be the companies with the deepest pockets.
The best
way to ensure that SCO would *not* be the last is to pay them off. Anderer has
this exactly backwards as to presumed cause and effect. This so clearly cannot
be by accident, or mistake, that it shows his moral corruption.
Even if
the large vendors disclaim all responsibility initially, I do not think the
customers will accept this from their vendors for very long. In the meantime,
I don't see anybody being in a hurry to write the first big
check.
Well at least he got one thing right. Except for fools like
ev1servers, who got deservedly burnt, and questar, who made a token payment at
best, nobody has given SCO money except those with a vested interest in hruting
Linux. [ Reply to This | # ]
|
- An apology? - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 01:32 PM EST
|
Authored by: MrEd on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 12:44 AM EST |
MS and SCO want the big players like IBM, Novell and HP et all to indemnify
because it narrows their target. If they can torture all the other big players
to drop FOSS by litigating them do death then MS can solidify their hold on the
market. I don't think they care if you and I install it on our home puters
much... but... if IBM, Dell, and others are offering it pre-installed on their
hardware as well as support for it as a desktop and server OS then MS is
screwed.
This will likely shape up to be the most bloody and ruthless business war of all
time.
Viva La FOSS
---
SCO is a tale spun by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 01:11 AM EST |
Very inspirational piece PJ. Excellent work!
However, we'll have to go through a lot of pain with many greedy corporations
before this whole thing is over. SCO is nothing, simply because they are relying
on copyrights for their own lawsuits, a matter that's easily resolved by looking
at the code (of which they have none). In other words, they are just a probe,
sent out to "get the feel" for the situation.
We have to prepare for an ongoing war against much more powerful enemies -
dishonest companies armed with patents, Eolas style (yes, I'm on Microsoft's
side here, on principle that all software patents are invalid).
Finally, maybe someone will see how wrong software patents are. Then and only
then we can go forward with no obstacles.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: dmscvc123 on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 01:18 AM EST |
<<GPL type license agreements push the liability to the users>>
It's so funny how Anderer talks about how evil wicked mean and nasty GPL
licenses are for putting the liability on the end users right after SCO just
sued two end users due SCO's non-GPL license![ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 01:43 AM EST |
Before our tin foil hats start vibrating let's remember a couple of things (from
the USA perspective):
1. The RIAA strong arm tactics were condemned by Congress.
The RIAA is not performing a Anderer tactic.
The RIAA felt the heat and no monster corps came forward
for the defense.
Despite RIAA strong arming, their core argument is
correct. The RIAA just needs to use more tact.
2. The DMA was defeated by the public outcry to the FTC
about telemarketers. The Congress, The President,
and the court ultimately united behind the small guy.
3. The concept of a IP ligitation business model is
proven failure and SCO is not the first example.
(I believe the former head of priceline.com tried
this model. Not successful and far as I know.)
4. Oddly enough Bill Gates might actually take a stand
against Microsoft moving in this direction. Bill
Gates is a hacker (in the proper sense) and a good
one from most accounts. The only difference is he
does it from behind a cash register (which I think
is a quote from somewhere but not sure where).
He has said repeatedly that Microsoft is in the
software business. Not hardware and probably not
litigation. Gates will defend his/Microsoft
"original inventions" vigourously however.
5. There are a lot of one man/two man software companies.
As well as larger companies that can't stand up
to Microsoft. The small software companies
constitute more votes for political office then
Microsoft does.
6. As someone has already pointed out Microsoft tends to be
the defendent more often then the plantiff in
mega-million lawsuits.
7. If Microsoft were to take such actions I believe
ultimately it be self defeating and while their
army of attorneys may not agree the board of
directors probably will. This would aggravate
Congress in a major way despite opinions to the
otherwise. RIAA reaction in Congress proves it.
8. Not even Microsoft is stupid enough to sue their
customers. At least for a couple more years,
Microsoft will dominate the desktop.
9. If Microsoft wanted this battle now they would have
already started filing the patent lawsuits. I
don't know why today is any different from
tomorrow or yesterday for that matter.
10. The Federal judges will see this coming. And it really
is them that determine the future of any patent.
If Microsoft starts a compaign like this they
will likely receive unfavorable rulings from
Federal benches with a bad taste in their mouth.
11. Overall if Microsoft wants people to actually
develop for their platform they can't be holding
litigation over everybody's head. Microsoft's
success is due largely to wide acceptance. This
is possibly due to some strong arming early
on but nevertheless that is current situation.
12. Microsoft will never pick a fight with IBM.
A great deal of Linux's value comes from IBM
supporting it.
13. I believe that despite the omninous rumblings from
Microsoft I believe many of these "bogus" patents
are defensive.
14. I really don't know what to make of SCO-MS connection.
It's possible that the left hand doesn't know what the
right hand is doing. Microsoft most definitely does
not want the SEC or the Justice department sniffing
around. Which leads me to believe in the the previous
statement is correct.
This is not a supporting statement for software patents.
Software patents should be made illegal or at the very least
limited to a year or two. Business models patents should
be outlawed.
This is also not a supporting statement for Microsoft strong
arming tactics.
This whole thing sure smells of a SCO mouth piece.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 01:44 AM EST |
Has anyone besides me ever read an M$ EULA? Or a M$ Office EULA? If you have
purchased either product I just listed, what exactly did you pay for? What
exactly do you 'own?'
Nothing. In a nutshell you have purchased a pig-in-a-poke. You do *not* own
the software you paid for. You merely have a license to *use* the software
until or unless the owner, at their sole discretion, revokes your license.
Further the software owner does *not* have to refund your money.
For those that run M$, check out their EULA sometime. Then show the boss that
all that money the company sends to M$ and similar scumbags is the same as
sending money down a rat hole. Hmmm, M$ and rat hole. How appropriate.
Then tell the boss about free software.
krp[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 02:08 AM EST |
Bill Gates ("Challenges and Strategy", 1991)
If people had
understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were
invented, and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete
standstill today. I feel certain that some large company will patent some
obvious thing related to interface, object orientation, algorithm, application
extension or other crucial technique. If we assume this company has no need of
any of our patents then the have a 17-year right to take as much of our profits
as they want. The solution to this is patent exchanges with large companies and
patenting as much as we can. Amazingly we havn't done any patent exchanges tha I
am aware of. Amazingly we havn't found a way to use our licensing position to
avoid having our own customers cause patent problems for us. I know these aren't
simply problems but they deserve more effort by both Legal and other groups. For
example we need to do a patent exchange with HP as part of our new relationship.
In many application categories straighforward thinking ahead allows you to come
up with patentable ideas. A recent paper from the League for Programming Freedom
(available from the Legal department) explains some problems with the way
patents are applied to software.
Source: Citation
from Bill Gates Memo (1991)
Enjoy![ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 02:38 AM EST |
Their loathsome litigation business model... is a misuse of the legal
system.... It can only work for so long before everybody gets sick of it and
them and changes the patent laws
How can a paralegal be so
naive?
Yes, it's loathsome. But that doesn't mean it won't work. The
free-software community is underestimating the threat. As for changing the
patent laws because "everybody is sick of it", which planet are you living
on? Laws in the USA are not changed because the people want them changed.
They are changed because big corporations want them changed. Heard of DMCA? Know
any ordinary people who wanted it?
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: grayhawk on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 02:51 AM EST |
In today's global market business needs to remain competitive which means
operational costs need to be kept down. MIS to date with all the constant rapid
changes has been nothing but a black hole financially. Microsoft has been, in
conjuction with the hardware manufacturers, milking the customer to the point
where it no longer is adventages to work with their products.
Everytime a new version comes out you need new hardware and new software and
make changes to legacy systems in order to be able to use the software tools
upon which you have become dependant.
You can't even buy the size of hardware that is appropriate for the job. Take
for example the receptionist who really doesn't need a 1+ Gigaherz Pentium with
300+ megs of ram and a 80+ Gig hard drive when all she uses the computer for is
to write a few letters or work on a few spread sheets.
Until the advent of Linux hardware became obsolete the day you bought it with
all the rapid changes in an operating system. Linux also allows one to use
hardware appropriate for the job since it works on anything from hand held to
mainframe. This is where companies like IBM come into their own. You now can
have a shop running disparate hardware and yet have the continuity of OS and
software.
The other major sticking point for businesses is the cost of software. The
price of hardware has been decreasing over the years to where a business can
purchase a complete system for under $500. Yet software prices have remained
high or even increased in price with each revision. Just think an office
software package can cost more than the hardware purchase you have made. How
rediculous is that I ask you?
In my estimation there is no software package worth more than $100 with most
less than $50 and here are my reasons for stating this fact.
Take your $500 personal computer. There has been more research, development and
labour expended in its design and manufacture than there has been in any
software package. You can't change just a couple of components on the
motherboard without redesigning the whole board and yet I can change a few lines
of code and come out with a complete "new" package and increase the
price to boot.
Now lets compare apples to apples. Take a computer game like Final Fantasy.
There is far more intricate logic and code in that game then there is in any
word processing, spread sheet or graphics package. Yet you can purchase such a
fine piece of logic for less than $70 dollars but are required to spend hundreds
on a office package. The reason being that the game is not required whereas the
office package is a must if you want to use that piece of iron and electronic
componentry sitting on your desk.
Now along comes FOSS and makes the software available at a price that is
reasonable, and we assume that some of us actually purchase it. No wonder
business is falling in love and the Software and Operating System Vendors are
crying foul. Just think you buy once and install it many times. Not only is
the original package price within reason but you also don't pay a per seat
license, a per site license nor do you have to maintain a costly software
audit.
The IBM's like it because with the savings on software you can now make some
funds available to buy that next generation piece of hardware for the shop so
you can improve your production process. For the hardware manufacturer, FOSS is
a godsent and so it is also becoming for business.
Just think, no hardware upgrades, great backwards capability, the flexibility to
choose the right hardware for the right job. You no longer need to buy a dump
truck to do a pickup trucks worth of work. World wide support with great
interoperability and connectivity. The ability to mix and match and even change
on the fly. No upgrade headaches since you can go from small iron to large and
maintain the same OS and software with the same staff.
Those are some of the reasons that the likes of MS, SCO et al are striking out
at FOSS. Unless they can adjust they are slowly becoming the white elephant.
---
All ships are safe in a harbour but that is not where they were meant to be.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 03:01 AM EST |
E.F. Codd at IBM invented the relational DB...
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 03:28 AM EST |
Ok....
I think there's way too much tinfoil flying around here.
Or perhaps- not enough- can't tell.
I think the idea of an "IP Vampire" getting away with it as a business
model, and then putting everyone out of business through litigation is a
*little* far fetched. The reason I believe this is due to my perception that
when it gets even close to that level the general public will somehow be
offended.
And we are on the edge of that now.
With major news services starting to pickup on these issues, the *general*
public will now have a view into what is going on. That's dangerous for MSFT and
SCO. It's dangerous because at some point it get's reduced to a monopolist, or
an "IP Vampire", simply whining that something is being given away
free. But the general public, small business, medium business, hobbyists, and
students all like FREE very much.
Even the peole who are writing FOSS must like FREE. They are after all giving
the code away.
In general, bullies fall. Usually because they are full of pride and under
estimate their opponents.
While it's very important that the fight be escalated by those who are
producers, users, and advocates of FOSS. It is equally important that we don't
forget that:
There's more of us than them.
Personally, I view the MSFT/SCO organizations as companies that are going to go
down in history as the people who tried to take way YOUR right to give something
YOU own away for free.
And that of course seems to me to be the crux of it.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Wesley_Parish on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 04:25 AM EST |
was the first thing I thought of, after reading
Anderer's reply on
Newforge. Cartman should sue
Anderer, SCO, Microsoft, et alii. for
stealing his
beautiful business plan of making millions from baseless
lawsuits.
Anderer's business plan will also have the -
unintended of course ;) - consequence, of making
the United States
defenseless, just for the record. By
driving the most productive members
of the software
development community offshore for fear of being sued into
the ground and so on and so forth, they will drain the
research
universities of their research capability, then
they will do the same for
the big companies, then ...
etc.
That's a mighty fine way to
greet the world, just after
SCO
has gratuitously advertised the fact that Free/Libre
Open Source
Software lowers the barriers to entry to such
a degree that even your worst
enemies can use it.
It also strikes me that this patenting of
software,
insofar as it locks up the marketplace, is not far from
aiding
and abetting those very same enemies, thus being
treasonous - if we wish to
go down those pathways of
thought
so
generously donated to us by SCO!
--- finagement: The
Vampire's veins and Pacific torturers stretching back through his own season.
Well, cutting like a child on one of these states of view, I duck [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: minkwe on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 04:38 AM EST |
We could start a website which will be a collection for ideas about software,
well documented with entry dates where everybody is free to post their free
ideas.
That way we'll have a repository of ideas in case somebody patents it later,
well just point to this wiki and tell them that someone else had that idea
before and published it.
What do you guys think?
---
Just my 0.02€ contribution to the floccinaucinihilipilification of SCO.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
- CMS? - Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 07:47 AM EST
|
Authored by: Rcomian on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 06:36 AM EST |
Yeah, you had me scared there. Sorry PJ, you really have got the wrong end of
the stick. All Mike says is that in a world of such massive litigation as Eolas
(erm, SCO?), only large corporations can survive the suits from the natural
infringement that occurs as you write software. "Why just look at
Microsoft, it's got 50 more suits against it! How would a small company like
Redhat survive this big boy's world?"
The all out war is I think our biggest fear, but Mike isn't threatening that, he
effectively saying that IP infringement is a fact of life, that it must be paid
for and that only the biggest corporations can afford to do that.
Of course, some might say there's a problem when someone writing software on
their own can infringe someone else's IP and be sued for it, but Mike isn't
contesting it, just accepting it and stating the corollary of this acceptance.
It sounds bad because this corollary is exactly what we've all been fighting
against - that only big corpations can do anything, small company's can't
compete. It's a very strong argument against software patents and allowing SCO
to re-write the meaning of derivative works and the way to go about IP
infringement suits. It wasn't written with that goal, but it comes around to
it.
Any news on this Project Monteray research?
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: RSC on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 06:41 AM EST |
PJ, I am stuned at this article.
When I had finished reading the first four paragraphs, I was livid. (I don't
think my wife has ever heard such things come from my mouth). How dare MS and
others treat the citizens of the world so badly for nothing more than money. I
was disgusted at the shear arrogance, and obvious hatred a few individuals have
towards people who have donated their time, intellegence and hard work to a
global project of startling beauty. And for what? A few bucks?
But as I continued reading, I was amazed at the optimism that your words
projected. I lost the feeling of hopelessness that washed over me while reading
the MS plan.
I know what I am about to say sounds soppy and a bit gushing, but I can't help
it. I now know what it must have felt like when the poeple listened to Lincoln
at Gettysberg or JFK speaking in Berlin. My fears melted away and I felt pitty
for the Execs at MS and SCO with the realisation that these poeple have taken on
a force that no one has ever been able to hold under their thumbs for very long,
the public.
Thanks PJ for making me feel both angry and boyant in the one reading. :)
RSC.
---
----
An Australian who IS interested.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: stephenry on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 06:49 AM EST |
Fantastic work PJ. We applaud you...
I want to warn you, however, that you are now, probably, the fist major target
in Microsoft's plan to discredit Linux. Through this whole SCO scandal, it has
be you that has stood between FOSS and FUD. And, it's you that discredited SCO's
claims in the most effective and public manner. You've now estabilished a name
for yourself -quite rightly. But, before any further attempts to embroil Linux
in a phony IP bubble, Microsoft, or their proxies, will need to find a way to
stop the community from speaking up against them. It has this been this site
alone that has done more to destroy the SCO case; and we can't trust IBM,
Novell, Redhat or whomever to speak out in public, as they've refrained from
doing so in the SCO case.
We need to come to an arrangment where any further attacks against you can be
defended. I don't honestly know how we can do this, and I am not doubting your
integrity, but I think its something that the we and the community will have to
think long and hard about.
Steve.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 06:58 AM EST |
it been resolved in Germany. [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 07:20 AM EST |
Of course that assumes he wasn't reading a document written by someone else... [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Frihet on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 07:51 AM EST |
PJ says, "There is just one problem with the plan. Most of the brains are
on the other side of the table, as you may have discerned from the leaked memo
and this article, and all of the pure love for software is, hence the backbone
to fight to win is with us. If this is the plan, we will simply meet it."
Software and business process patents are stifling innovation and limiting
opportunity, but they are, I argue, also simply immoral. However, if the
monopolies and their representatives on Capitol Hill want to set up these
barriers to the advancement of arts and sciences, why don't we turn them to a
moral purpose. We've got brains, vision, and lawyers. I'd say it's time for
the community to start filing patents.
The framework is present now. All we need to do is to create a documentation
process -- CVS for patents :-) -- and get rolling. PJ has a lawyer friend with
a "silly patent" web site that might be able to keep us on track.
---
Frihet
Repeal the Digital Monopoly Conservation Act.
Write your congress folks![ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 07:53 AM EST |
Sorry, but the stuff he wrote is just blablabla about how smart he is, and
further avoids mentioning any information regarding Microsoft, SCO and his
involvement.
If this is the best answer he comes up with (after a week of silence), than I
believe Microsoft is even MORE involved.
About the patents:
1) IBM is to involved with Linux. Microsoft, or partners, dumping their patent
portfolio on opens-source projects will have a direct impact on IBM's business,
and will respond by opening their patent guns.
2) If a patent war would ever happen, many companies will go abroad to other
places in the world; it's happening today already.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Sam Lowry on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 09:30 AM EST |
It's a pretty dismal vision, a future full of patent infringement claims and
endless litigation designed to make open-source software seem like a huge risk.
But there's a much brighter alternative -- if the companies who try it go down
in flames, especially the first one, not too many others will want to go down
the same road.
It's hard to predict what will happen in a courtroom, but at this point I think
everyone can see that SCO runs a significant risk of crashing and burning. PJ
and Groklaw, and a lot of other people commenting on these cases, have done at
least enough to expose some gaping holes in SCO's side of the story. Unless they
come up with something a great deal better than what has been made public so
far, it's hard to see how they will make a compelling case, even when their
arguments are taken in the best light. I know that I'm a legal layman, perhaps
naive and perhaps indulging in wishful thinking, but still I think there's good
reason to think positive.
And by all indications, SCO has bet their entire future on their lawsuits. The
financial reports suggest that they'd hardly have a leg to stand on without MS's
backing. The litigation appears to have propped up their stock price, but that
seems to be backfiring of late, and if they start losing lawsuits, the bottom
may drop out. If SCO starts failing in every courtroom in sight, which might
very well happen, it could be devastating to their business, possibly fatal.
And that's the bright alternative to Anderer's dismal vision. A lot of people
are watching these cases, and if it was meant to be the first shot of a legal
barrage, then a crushing blow to SCO could have a salutory effect. Not too many
others would want to follow them down the road to catastrophe.
All the more reason to keep up the pressure and the bright light of scrutiny on
SCO. Keep up the good work, PJ and all you Groklawyers!
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 09:32 AM EST |
PJ, as you know I enjoy Groklaw and always find your comments and those of
our friends in this community to be informative and insightful. As you've
pointed out in your interviews, it's very like an "open legal"
development
community, and I enjoy it.
In this instance though I must say that some of the comments you've made
seem a little over the top. While it may well be true that some branch of MS
has encouraged their friends to put some money in to prop up the SCO
nonsense, presumably because it annoys and derails Linux and the open
source software movement, I don't think it's appropriate to cast MS in its
entirety as Darth Vader.
I think we should remember that like us the MS crowd consists of a large
community of mostly well intentioned individual developers (in their case
many of them working for MS itself). I'm not a big MS user myself, having
used Macs, Linux and now Darwin since their inception, but I know enough
Windows developers to know that they work hard to serve their user
community and they do strive for quality and resposibility in what they do.
Moreover, the company tries hard to provide a quality product and to be
responsive to its user community, not unlike what we do.
Polarizing the whole situation to good guys - bad guys may be in the best
interests of the SCO-umbags, but it is not in our best interests and it's
contrary to the atmosphere of respect and laissez-faire that characterizes our
community.
The best future does not have winners and losers, it has alternatives offered
in an environment free of litigation and with real choices and differences
available. I think it's worth remembering that when commenting on MS and
its community. We want thir respect, and respect is a two way street.
---
Jim[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: zjimward on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 09:58 AM EST |
Another part of this working is calling the open source movement overzealous.
Any time some one makes a comment it is a threat, not out of knowledge, but like
some one from a fanatical terrorist group. Take a look around at responses from
people that believe Microsoft is innovative and Windows is a great product. Some
of them go a bit over the top too. Does this reflect on the professionalism at
Microsoft? If we hold the same ruler up to Microsoft and SCO that the press does
to Linux people it should. I have read through the comments to some articles on
SCO vs Linux and Microsoft vs Linux. Yes, there are people that make rude
comments, but there are some that make good valid points. It's these bad
comments that get published in the writers next piece as "look at the Linux
terrorist". It doesn't surprise me that patents is the next step in the
effort to get rid of Linux. If you've ever looked at the number of patents held
by companies like Microsoft you would wonder why they aren't suing more
companies. The answer, hold them until you really want to use them to acquire
other technologies. Tell the public these people are theives. Stealing your
innovations and that by doing so the public will see the company as worthless.
Sort of reminds you of the days of robber barons.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Bon on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 10:43 AM EST |
I posted this into 'A Marketing Idea' because I felt it was relevant there, and
having moved onto the next story about Anderer, I thought it was also relevant
here. Business has to accept new models, but we have to overcome this mind-set.
I had a suggestion as to how, and here it is again,(apols if you have already
read this):
I have never doubted we have some brilliant minds all posting to Groklaw, but
on
reading all these postings to this story I could not believe everyone missed
the
main problem with Linux at the moment.
I'm not out to go trolling, because I totally agree that live-cd distros and
distributing OOo is a good idea, but it's a good idea to get company's and the
'productivity' markets to Linux.
However, I really believe to get people to Linux, we need to encorage a new
generation to *NIX systems.
I grew up with the ZX81, the Com64, the Sam Coupe (remember them?), the Amiga
and I remember what drove me to get those machines. There were some bloody good
games! Yes, they were simple, but they were good.
I started learning about programming on the ZX81, in BASIC, when you loaded a
game (as long as your 16k RAM pack didn't wobble!), then you pressed 'break'
and
you could look at the game code. My C64 had a 360k disk drive, and I learned
about Peeking and poking just to get the drive lit up! With my first PC, using
DOS (MS *sic* before u ask) I started to use Borland Pascal to hit memory
vectors and make it do things.
Ok, I digress, but my point is to get Linux mainstream and to build a new
generation of writers, we need a killer app.
We need a decent game.
We need a game in the FOSS that everyone wants, everyone can see how it works,
and learn from it. ID software have been gracious to release their old games to
the community, but for the latest 'killer' games you need Windows.
I really believe that when we get our act together and launch a game based
distro, we will be home and dry.
We need some 'killer' games on the CD.
We need the source for the games on that CD.
We need that CD in places like Electronics Boutique and GAME.
We need kids able to pick up that CD (or DVD, with respect to another learned
friend posting here) and turn their PC into a games console, without ruining
Mum's or Dad's official documents.
As those games are played, kids will be encoraged to learn how they work and
maybe work on their own. AMOS and Blitz basic on the Amiga formed a huge range
of great games, but getting people learning C++ from an early age would lead to
great things for the future, I'm sure.
Linux games sites at the moment are not brilliant, lets be honest. However, to
promote *NIX to a new generation, it's games we need.
I am not a programmer, IANAL, but I would be happy to help a group of
volunteers
create a distro based on games, because I believe thats where the next
generation is. NOT in giving away copies Linux or OOo. Thats a short term
ideal.
The PS2 and the X-Box(sic) run Linux, so lets create a distro that turns home
PC
into a console with development potential. Expand that distro to the consoles.
And lets get some 'killer' games on that disc.
Then, maybe, the future of *NIX, and Linux in particular, is assured.
Just my 2 penneth, mail me directly if u r interested in working on such a
project, Ian.bonham at orange.net,
Bon
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 11:12 AM EST |
I know that this kind of trickery should get me steaming mad.
This cold and hard reasoning on matters that influence so many lives
and the mathematical accuracy that these people utilize to try and destroy
something because it's good.
On moral grounds this alone is enough to let the world know that THERE software
is build with bloodmoney, polished with lies and scams. The company everybody
made so rich
is overly eager to completely whipe out a small branche of industrie made by
people who DO follow the
same goals and ideals that Microsoft still claims they have.
Microsofts loyalty to the computer industrie pales in comparison to that of one
single
OSS developer that does it "for the fun of it".
they are loyal only to themselfes.
THEY do not INVENT. they buy out and take over.
THEY do not DEVELOPE. they sell sell sell and want to sell more.
THEY DO NOT COMPETE. THEY WANT TO DESTROY AND DOMINATE.
I say "there software" because those of us that made the choice of
open source are confronted and affected
with these matters in a complete opposite way that OTHER people see these
things.
As a group or community we have less to do with these companies then just about
anybody else.
And still they can't leave us alone or compete with us in a fair way.
Hence my choice of creating 2 camps. those who are willing to sponsor the man
with the gun.
and those who have the gun aimed at there heads.
This seems very black and white but that is the same position that microsoft and
co take on us.
These people can truly say that they choose to work on a way to eliminate a form
of art
and idealism never before seen working successfully on such a global scale.
And the worst part is that they can still live with themselfes.
When you pay microsoft for there "services" you could be paying them
for putting your next door neighbour OSS developer
out of work.
The tricky part is that these companies are ready to reinvent life for just
about everybody everywhere. As software keeps impacting our
lives on a larger scale we can determin that this is a trend that we can never
stop.
So with these facts in mind must we not really question who WE want to scape
this future ?
And now that round after round it proves very difficult to hit the target the
gunfire is finaly heard all over the world.
We can now see these companies for what they realy are and represent.
I do not see how after this is all over we can simply coexist in peace.
They made it painfully clear that they believe this world is to small for the
both of us.
Well if that is the case lets give them a bludy good run for there money.
We know our stuff is better and we know that it matters.
We know that what the community does is important for everybody.
People will choose open source and will do that for all the right reasons.
Now is the time to use this momentum.
The nature of the dynosaur is exposed to the world.
They create not software but they slow us down.
Maybe they know if they do not stop OSS people will see that though they are the
global market leader they do NOT lead anything.
It will become clear that having a 95% grip on a market does not make you it's
commander or maintainer.
If OSS is here to stay MS will be known as the people who drew the marketing
lottery ticket for succes and spend it all on warfare before there downfall.
No, this does not get me steaming mad. I pitty them more then ever.
If it's survival they are after I can only advice one thing.
Join in or prepare to fall.
retep vosnul.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: borneo on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 11:15 AM EST |
Pj said she want no politics on her site. I think she's right. When you can read
this :
"The key to Atomz Publish is its patent-pending template management system,
which allows Web designers to clearly separate Web content from site design, and
then give access to non-technical users of the Web site so that they can edit
the content themselves. Using a series of straightforward HTML-like tags, the
Web designer completely customizes the areas of the site that he wants content
editors to be able to work in. In addition to setting levels of editing
capability and customizing the editing interface, the Web site manager also can
give editors access to publish their changes directly to the Web site or to a
staging server, or both."
Webmasters or users of some free cms like PHP-NUKE, TYPO3, GEEKLOG, SPIP, and
many others prepare yourself to pay some royalties....
ATOMZ is the cms that drive the website of a presidential candidate.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: fmouse on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 11:48 AM EST |
Never was Victor Hugo's famous quote more relevant ...
"No army can
withstand the power of an idea whose time has come".
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 12:06 PM EST |
I have said it before. We need a fund, a patent fund, to help OSS patents. We
can licenses them the same way IBM licensed patents to Linux. Redhat even gets
the point we are not going to win say software patents are wrong. We are going
to win by being the brains in the tech world and patenting our ideas and only
licensing them to OSS. If we don't get on this path i think OSS has a long road
ahead of them.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 12:50 PM EST |
So what happens if someone writes GPL software which turns out to actually
be covered under someone else's patent? What then? FOSS is all well and
good - I write plenty of it myself - but I wonder what happens when patents
figure into all of this.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 12:55 PM EST |
Back in October Lawrence Goldfarb did an interview with Forbes and said this:
"We spent a lot of time calling around to potential licensees, and we
believe SCO is going to sign enough companies to make this an interesting growth
story."
It's mind blowing to imagine how those conversations could have gone.
I mean how do you ask a company if they're going to pay extortion money so that
you can have "an interesting growth story"?
I think the whole thing would make a great scene for a Mel Brooks movie.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 01:02 PM EST |
My respect for Groklaw has dropped to zero. Learn to parse basic grammar before
strapping on the tinfoil hat.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 01:03 PM EST |
Concerning IP/patent infringement lawsuits:
Anders states. "The problem is there will probably be hundreds or even
thousands of these disputes in the future and the targets will be the companies
with the deepest pockets."
IPX the one mentioned in Halloween X Is owned by ITX and on their website;
http://www.itx-corp.co.jp/eng/business/business_i/group.html ;
states:
"The world's licensing market is expected to grow to US$500 billion by
2005. Profit generation through technology transfer and cost reduction and cost
reduction, therefore, are urgent issues for those with proprietary patents and
technologies. IPX develops various professional services worldwide, covering
such issues as technological license transfer, patent infringement lawsuits,
royalty auditing and consulting surveillance."
There have been numerous compnaies that claim to be the watchdogs for industrial
IP/patents such as IPX, Wisdomain, Delphion and Infocom (patent management not
the game manufacturer)
I have a few of questions about IP/patents enforcement primarily concerning
software since it seems that proprietary software companies are no longer trying
to bring legal action about infringing code but legal action concerning the idea
of what code does:
1) What methods do IP/patents investigation companies employ to verify their
clients IP/patents is not infringed?
2) Though there are some .org organizations that deal with IP/patents like the
World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) and the American Intellectual
Property Law Association (AIPLA) they seemed to be comprised of those that serve
industry. So the question is, is/are there public interest organization(s) that
watch for new software patents that are filed when there is prior art?
3) Is there at least one of these organizations that protects OSS and would
oppose the filing of patents when there is prior art?
4) Is there any GNU/OSS software that searchs for any OSS IP infringments?
It seems that some proprietary software companies are going going to try to
usurp and discredit Open Source Software and have declared war on the Open
Source Community.
_[=================]_
---~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~---
from under the bridge
I realize I'm only the hired help here but I don't do Windows.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: jdg on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 01:47 PM EST |
There are flaws in the argument that size is necessary to be able to survive
and, by implication, one BIG company doing a lot of things is much better placed
than a number of small companies doing one or two things. Some of the flaws
have to do with a misunderstanding of Economies of Scale and what avenues exist
for smaller companies to exploit these economies without becoming the larger
firm (marketing channels, standards groups etc.). However, I want to focus on
one specific issue that has arisen in the SCOG/IBM case.
If SCOG were a large company and a lot of assets, I do not think that SCOG would
have pursued the litigation path that they have taken. Why not? The strategy
that SCOG has taken is a very risky one that has opened them up to a number of
liabilities if they lose, even if they only lose on a few issues. The
counterclaims are likely to be larger, maybe much larger, than the value of the
company. What will happen in the case that they lose, will they payout on all
of these counterclaims? No, they will not, they will simply go bankrupt.
However, if they were BIG, then the other assets owned by other parts of the
company would sustain them enough for IBM et al. to be paid on these
counterclaims. Being BIG allows your opponents to capture the value in the
other unrelated business lines.
SCOG is so “dangerous” because it has nothing to lose. (The value of the
company was less than they are paying Boies and the cost-revenue gap was
widening, not shrinking, as it is continuing to do under their litigate it or
lose it strategy.) Now, there are complications to a simple argument because of
Canopy’s involvement. The Canopy arrangement is an attempt to have the
advantages of size while doling out the liability to small subsets with limited
liability that legally (Canopy hopes) stand alone. Of course, it appears that,
IMHO, IBM might take a run at them because of the careless and crass actions of
the principals involved.
IANAL, but I sometimes practice economics (and I even have a license, but do not
tell SCOG).
---
SCO is trying to appropriate the "commons"; don't let them[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 02:09 PM EST |
We are fighting the wrong fight. Open source may beat SCO in the long run. It
may outlast Microsoft, but that's going to be one tough fight. The question is
why is it a problem in the first place? The answer lies in problems within our
legal system. To win this fight once and for all, you will need to change the
legal system.
I expect there would be a lot of support for that. Even Microsoft recognizes
that the whole patent problem is absurd, despite having enough money to protect
themselves. Fights over patents, copyrights, or "intellectual
property" just migrate money away from the tech sector where it's doing
something useful to lawyers who perpetuate these problems. If I were a software
company, I'd much rather be paying money to develop products instead of paying
money to lawyers to protect myself from frivolous lawsuits.
I guess my point is that win, lose, or draw with SCO, you're going to see this
happen over and over again unless we change the laws to support creativity and
productivity rather than anarchy in the software industry. This would be a good
place to start discussing how we could change the legal system for the better.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: PeteS on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 02:29 PM EST |
Some time ago, when looking at the overall case, I mentioned that Linux (and
FOSS in general) is a disruptive technology. Disruptive technologies are hardly
new; they have been the agents of major change for millenia.
Every time a disruptive technology has come along, it has been fought tooth and
nail by those with a vested interest in maintaining the existing status quo, but
those efforts have always been unsuccessful, although on occasion they were
protracted.
The disruption caused by Linux (and FOSS) is to commoditize major software
components. A commodity (by definition) is ssold at or close to the cost to
produce it. For FOSS, this is literally the case, but there is money to be made
for real value (such as support, customizing etc).
(Note that this is also true of anything that becomes widely used, and as such
garners sufficient competition to render the object a commodity - anyone can
make it with the right equipment, reducing the equation to the most efficient
producer).
It is because of this that we actually have patents; so people will have an
incentive to invent things without it being rendered a commodity before they
have a chance to reap a profit from it.
SCOG and others are using the system to (as noted) prevent new inventions that
would compete with their business model, but I look at these efforts with the
same view of those older failed attempts to stand in the way of new
technologies. Those older failed models also wielded the majority of the power
(money in this case) and yet still failed, because the new technologies provided
a superior product at a lower cost.
This is as true of FOSS as it was of other major changes in the economic
landscape such as the industrial revolution.
So hang on to your hats for a wild ride, and keep plugging away with facts,
because ultimately that is what will undo the opposition. The facts of the
matter show FOSS is a more suitable plan for underlying system components in
widely used areas. These facts are being noticed, and many companies will be
forced to change their business model, but as noted, that is not a new
phenomenon.
This does not mean there is not space for proprietary solutions, of course; in
fact moving to FOSS for commodity objects frees up significant capital to work
on new inventions.
Anderer et. al. are simply part of the new luddites who wish to hang on to their
old comfortable ways, not realizing that history is not on their side.
---
Today's subliminal thought is:
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 02:52 PM EST |
..he says he is "in integration".
..so, he patented integration without integrity? ;-) [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 03:08 PM EST |
A nation that started out with 3/5 of a person and then went to Dred Scott and
Plessy vs. Ferguson before getting to Brown vs. the Board of Ed.. Love vs.
Virginia, and all the rest will weather the DMCA and DRM.
What it won't survive are citizens who think it's useless to bother.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Peter H. Salus on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 03:53 PM EST |
Thank God for the fact that neither
FORTRAN nor APL were innovative.
Peter
---
Peter H. Salus[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 04:56 PM EST |
In other words, M$ wishes to turn the IP domain into a
"demolition derby"
SCO was just one rig they salvaged from the junkyard just for
the race....
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Stumbles on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 04:56 PM EST |
I just read this over at the Inquirer. A very good article.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14707 [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: geoff lane on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 05:21 PM EST |
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing time after time expecting a
different outcome.
By that definition The SCO Group is insane.
What happens if Microsoft catches Mad SCO Disease? The obvious first target
would be Samba (or the users of Samba.) Who would act as their White Knight?
Who has deep enough pockets?[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Arthur Marsh on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 06:24 PM EST |
Hi, Mike Anderer seems to have posted here
p> --- http://www.unix-systems.org/what_is_unix.html [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Arthur Marsh on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 06:33 PM EST |
I received a reply from one of the Newsforge editors that Newsforge had asked
Anderer a few questions about subjects like S2 vanishing, but that Newsforge
hadn't received a reply to them. I'm glad that Newsforge asked such questions,
even if they went unanswered.
---
http://www.unix-systems.org/what_is_unix.html[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 07:17 PM EST |
Mr. Anderer says:
"In a world where there are $500 million dollar patent infringement
lawsuits imposed on OS companies (although this is not completely settled yet),
how would somebody like Red Hat compete when 6 months ago they only had $80-$90
million in cash?"
First of all the value of the award in a lawsuit is based on the assessment of
the damage/loss. So in the RedHat example, if RedHat only had $90 million, it
would be pretty obvious they hadn't made $500 million off a patent
infringement.
More importantly, it's going to be obvious early on if they are infringing,
because it's open source.
In addition, sticking to open, international (or as Anderer says,
"commoditized" - another noun verbed) standards helps avoid the patent
quagmire. Thats also why MS does the embrace and extend waltz so well.
Ya gotta hand it to the guy, he spreads it smooth and thick.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Callan.ca on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 07:17 PM EST |
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14707
---
IANAL, IANAP, IAAC (I am a Canadian)[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 07:46 PM EST |
It is interesting that this guy thinks it is perfectly OK to set up I.P.
roadblocks as a means to stifle competition. The truth is many businesses and
industries operate this way and the I.P. gets wielded when the holders start
failing of facing fierce competition in the market place.
Legally they may have a case however others also hold Patent I.P. notably IBM
& other Linux adopters.
His comment about who do you go after, implying that customers are next reflects
the arrogance of these people and their willingness to consider the kinds of
despicable tactics SCO has employed like suing end users as a means of seeding
fear. They forget that the artificial monopoly that patents afford their holders
is granted by congress and is not a God given right. Patent holders have no
natural right to exclusively monopolize an idea to the exclusion of other
independent inventors, and with increasing emphasis on software patents that are
obvious or derivative and in many cases algorithmic in nature or even pertaining
to an obvious application of computers in a business environment, this is
becomming a nasty man made problem that already does more to stifle innovation
than to foster it.
Patents are supposed to foster investment and innovation when they stop doing
that their nature and application must be changed. In addition other antitrust
laws still apply even with intellectual property in the mix.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 13 2004 @ 08:05 PM EST |
I'm still somewhat leary of IBM in this case against SCO. I think IBM's
interests are not idealistic like the free software movement and they could do
things that we might not like. Anderers suggests that the source code could be
placed in the public domain as settlement in this case. I think that is what MS
and the IP heads want. Public domain is much better than the GPL for MS. Public
domain means that companies can take the work and steal it for proprietary
closed source work. Thus the interest in trying to claim the GPL is
unconstitutional.
IBM has vast interest in the patent system and supports the concept of IP in a
way that the FOSS world does not. It could be that IBM in the end will decide
that it's interests are better served without the GPL as it will do too much
damage to IBM's vested interest in IP.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 04:19 AM EST |
The conventional wisdom seems to be that software patents are a big danger to
GPL software. Is this really true?
Look at the Eolas patent thing. They went after Microsoft. They didn't go after
any of the GPL web browsers which it could also be argued violated the same
(thankfully now invalidated) patent. Microsoft is (according Mr Anderson)
apparently facing 50 similar suits. Linux is involved in ... how many?
Anyone who programs cannot avoid violating silly patents. But not everyone gets
sued. It is greed that determines who gets sued. The patent extortionists go
after the big payout. GPL software actually makes a very lousy target for these
people, for the following reasons
1. GPL software is usually written by a small army of diverse contributers.
Determining who to sue is likely to be a big problem.
2. Many of the members of this army are students or private individuals with
quite shallow pockets. It just isn't worth suing them.
3. Many of the members of this army live in places that do not recognise
software patents. You simply cannot sue `em.
4. Even if you find someone with deep pockets that the US law can reach, you
might have trouble pinning any violation specifically to them and not to these
other contributers.
5. GPL software is protected by a small army of motivated groklawyers, who will
swarm to the defense of any member of the GPL community, and who are quite
likely to be able to dig up all sorts of examples of prior art. Legal expenses
are likely to be payed by the free software foundation. There is a very good
chance that if you sue them, they will not settle, and you'll have a bloody hard
time proving your case and a very real chance of losing.
6. The Nazguls of IBM may decide to take an interest if your suit looks like
impacting on the activities of IBM.
7. GPL software is usually quite inexpensive. The software writers often do not
directly benefit monetarily from the software they write. Those who may have
violated your patent probably did not profit by it, so you will have a great
deal of trouble justifying a damage figure.
8. Those who do profit from open source software do so indirectly, by offering
support services or advice, or by repackaging and distributing what others have
written. They are like the mechanics who service the car or the sales reps who
sell it. If a car violates a patent these are not the kinds of people who can be
targetted by a patent suit. Normally you would have to go after the
manufacturer. Patent law just isn't set up to deal with the economics of open
source software.
9. In the unlikely event that you succeed in getting a payout from one GPL
contributer, a thousand others will spring up to fill the hole. The GPL
community is a highly distributed network. There is no irreplacable node. And
large parts of the network are actually immune, being located in places where
software cannot be patented. Even if a patent suit succeeds in targetting one
member of the community the movement as a whole will be largely undamaged.
Proprietary software is MUCH more vulnerable to patent suits than GPL software.
trying to attack the GPL community with patent suits would be like attacking a
swarm of bees with a rifle. Those who have these weapons will want to go after
the elephants and tigers instead.
Yes microsoft proably would love to see GPL software tangled up in patent
issues. But microsoft lives in a glasshouse as far as patents are concerned, and
they would be stupid to start throwing stones.
Microsoft would probably face antitrust issues if it went after linux this way.
And microsoft might have a hard time persuading others to target GPL software
particularly since Microsoft itself is likely to present a much juicier target.
I don't think the GPL community actually has much to fear. The proprietary
software people will be much more inconvenienced by general patent
litigiousness, and will probably pay to get the law changed long before patents
become a serious threat to the GPL community. [ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 04:23 AM EST |
I see a few significant problem in this masterplan:
The only obvious beneficiaries here are the lawyers. The rest are just loosing
money. For examplpe, it is only a speculation, that even if SCO wins, it will
have the necessary licensing income to cover the litigation costs.
It is more likely, that whatever copyrighted code (if any) is included in Linux
will be replaced in a matter of days. It is very unlikely, that court will
order milions of costumers to pay royalty to SCO, without giving them the chance
to replace the "offending" code.
The second problem comes with the "viral" nature of the GPL, in a good
sense of the word. The fact is, that viruses and bacteria extremeley hard to
kill off. You have to destroy each and every of them, otherwise they will start
to grow and multiply again, in a stronger form. This might happen with the Open
Source/Free software movements. Some of them will be killed off with patent
litigations, but the rest will grow stronger and stronger and will cost more and
more to destroy. At the end, copyright will not be an effective weapon anymore,
just like the old antibiotics today...
Open source movement survived for more than a decade without major industry
support. What is the worst thing what can happen?
We might have to wait a couple of more years for complete dominance in the
software world!
Sandor Laza
slaza@xs4all.nl[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: skyisland on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 09:31 AM EST |
The business model of intimidation by threat of litigation
is not just an issue for open-source development. If the
vehicle is patent litigation, they don't necessarily have
to see your source in order to allege infringement. Recall
SCO's claim that the rapidity of Linux's improvement was
evidence that infringement "must have" occurred.
Imagine your innovative company is growing well enough to
show up on Microsoft's radar. Their rep shows at your
company and explains that MS engineers have analyzed the
behavior of your product and are convinced that it infringes
on a number of patents. He says, just buy this license,
to avoid any consequences. Or, are you feeling lucky--punk?
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 11:35 AM EST |
This whole thing has actually gone way tooo far.
The guys who push this stuff believe it and always will. They don't get rich by
working - they get rich by manipulating - and the worst thing is they think it
is totally reasonable.
I now believe that the big mistake was the 'big' names on our side calling for
restraint when the whole thing started. To hell with restraint - you will just
get mired in court for years while things slowly die. Action would actually do
the trick - sinks sites - DoS attacks - the whole thing on such a massive scale
that dealing with it would be impossible. You have to make these guys lives
impossible otherwise they will never go away. If they lose one court round they
will just be back with another - it is a way of life for them. You have to hit
them where it hurts - and that is in their ability to lead a meaningful
lifestyle. We actually need to find out where they live and where they shop and
where they go on holiday and make their lives a personal misery. Then we could
get back to business - and believe me no damage would really be done. It would
just be acknowledged in business that this is no joke and you can't operate in
the traditional way with this new stuff.
At the moment we are being suckered - though right is on our side - the courts
don't care about rights - only about the letter of the law - and that stinks
because the guys we are trying to deal with have no honour. They really need to
get their hands burnt - and in such a way that it sends a message to others
also.
So I say to hell with them - it's time for action....and there are more of us
than them.
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 12:18 PM EST |
Wether his argument is strong or not, Microsoft secretly lobbied in Europe for
Software Patents! This was pointed out on Netkwesties.nl and later of
swpat.ffii.org. Unfortunately, i can't find the source. But it should be there.
They secretly did so and argued before software patents.
Before one thinks this is fine, think about the huge impact Microsoft has and
about the fact that they did it in secret. Why not just say in public what your
opinion is? We'll get to a discussion in which we'll most likely come to a best
end conclusion. No, Microsoft decided not to which results in me getting the
feeling of dealing with a "behind one's back arms dealer" after it was
found out. I hope you get that point thus i decided to share the information
here.
Currently, the Australians are in a same problem regarding software patents [1].
Hopefully, any secret lobbies are made public there as well. Perhaps they need
help?
[1] http://newsvac.newsforge.com/newsvac/04/03/12/189208.shtml[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 05:39 PM EST |
Jason Matusow, head of MS Shared Source has this to say on eweek:
"There are no pure-play open-source companies today that are allowing
complete and total free access to source code and still maintaining a very
strong business model. Even Red Hat [Inc.], which comes the closest to this
model, now in their support agreement say that if customers modify the source
code, they invalidate the support agreement."
It's a little more sophisticated, and a little less strident than their usual
stuff. He's now saying that MS is doing open source.
Here's the link:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1548991,00.asp
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 14 2004 @ 08:33 PM EST |
Watch the waterbugs on a pond. Random circling is their defense. Now so is
SCO's.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: chiark on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 04:25 AM EST |
Hmm, this "free as water" analogy is a superb one, as it encapsulates
a couple of subtleties.
1 - Anyone can collect water and do what they want with it (eg gentoo, or a
downloaded distro), or you can pay a utility to do it for you, and pipe it to
your house on potable form (eg buying from Redhat)
2 - People have tried to over-commercialise plain old water, and are finding
themselves on the end of legal attention as well as consumer indignation. Take
the example of Dasani, from Coca-cola group. In the UK, this is advertised as
"pure, still water". People are taking objection to this...
- its source is the tap water supply in Kent, England.
- the water is then purified by a "reverse osmosis" process (!),
apparently
- extra stuff is added (making it less than pure, surely?)
- it's bottled in a fashionable blue bottle, called a stupid name, and hawked
out at 99p for half a litre.
The ASA may prosecute over the use of the word "pure", and the water
companies in the UK are seriously considering action as Coca cola could be seen
as implying that their water is "less pure".
Furthermore, consumers are waking up to the fact that this is quite possibly the
biggest rip-off that Coca-cola has attempted to pull yet, and there are signs
that they've had enough.
Cheers,
Nick.[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 01:16 PM EST |
http://trends.newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=36583&cid=87961
My speculation
(Score:1)
by mikes2 (187904) on Saturday March 13, @11:33PM (#87961)
I
would just like to clarify a point that may kill a whole cottage industry where
the speculation was that I meant Microsoft intended 50 lawsuits against other
people. This rampant speculation was completely off base.
I stated that I
thought Microsoft might have about 50 of these lawsuits queued up ( I meant
patent lawsuits AGAINST Them). This was a statement (and just speculation) that
was meant more as a commentary on the messed up way things are, than how they
should be. It is the legal system, as it exists today, and it may not change
quickly. Patent law is at some level tied to the constitution and to several
international treaties (my understanding).
As for my understanding of
patent and copyright law, I think it is like quantam mechanics, (paraphrasing)
"anyone who is not totally confused and amazed by patent and copyright law, does
not truly understand it"
There were no threats in there, just observations that
were my own.
I am not an attorney, I am not LDS (mormon), just because I am
from Utah, I was not even a very good Catholic so why would they want me?
If
anybody wants to let the people at Groklaw know the whole premise for the
article they put out is just a misreading of what I wrote here. The same goes
for The Inquirer, and Erik Raymond, maybe it will save a couple trees.The truth
is occasionally less interesting.
I apologize for the lack of clarity that
caused so much heated writing in response.
-Mike
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 05:28 PM EST |
I believe that what SCo is doing is anathema to the proper business model; that
of providing products to the consumer at a reasonable price in a reasonable way.
their model is precisely what M$ wants; sue all of the competition out of
business.
After all, if a woman in California can get (possible) millions from MacDonalds
for spilling hot coffee on her lap while shewas driving, why can't a third-rate
software company, backed by M$ dollars, sue everyone whom M$ doesn't like and
fears? It looks like the litigation-happy US has almost gone the distance in
bogus lawsuits with this one (I'm Canadian, BTW).
I certainly hope that this does not become the business model of the future, or
else it will mean the end of proper business preactices and the beginning of a
new class of profiteering: "let's take our competition to court over being
in the same business as us".[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 10:35 AM EST |
Looks like someone wants to tie up Kazaa in the court system.
LOS
ANGELES (AP) - A native of Romania who claims to have written the source code to
the popular file-sharing software Kazaa is suing the program's distributor over
the rights to the software and seeking $25 million in compensation.
...Toader, now a programmer for Microsoft, seeks a judgment
confirming his rights to the program.
The Article
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 18 2004 @ 07:59 AM EST |
I am German, but I am not a laywer, of course.
In areas
governed by civil law, either the law currently supports GPL,
or it doesn't.
Theoretically at least, the interpretation of the
courts should be
secondary.
Still the courts need to decide what exactly the
GPL means in the
context of our law. Such decisions are not at all obvious
(otherwise
we wouldn't need courts ;-)). Previous rulings play an important
role
to estimate how the law will and should be interpreted, both for
the
interested parties as well as for the court
itself.
(Sidebar: The German legal system is, generally, much
more willing
than that of the United States to restrict individual (or
corporate)
speech for the common good. [...] no pesky First Amendment to
worry
about.)
Just to clarify, there is of course a free
speech garantee in the
German constitution. OTOH, in keeping with our history,
the very
first article of the constitution is "Human dignity is
inviolable"
(this sounds much better in German ;-)). This is not just
rhetoric,
there are real consequences from that article, and it probably is
also
interpreted to justify some limits on free speech.
Back to the
topic. As long as SCO doesn't give proof, what it says
looks like slander to me
(not sure about the right English terminology
here). Threatening people with
which SCO doesn't even have contract
relations using vague allegations so that
they buy "licenses" seems
extortion to me. Indeed it seems that SCO so far has
avoided actually
making any of its threats true, except for companies with which
they
do have contracts.
If there are violations of copyright,
I should think SCO would have to
give appropriate warnings, so that the people
in violation
(programmers that may, after all, not know that they are
using
material copyrighted by SCO) can decide if they want to either get
a
license or just stop using the copyrighted material.
So I wonder why
an injunction or something similar against SCO has not
been tried yet in US
courts (or has it?). Is that because it is
diffult to determine who
would be slandered? Or would any
decision have to wait until the IBM case is
decided anyway under US
procedures? Companies and individuals have real losses
because of
SCOs behaviour in the meantime, I would think. So how can
people
protect themself in the context of US law?
benny
[ Reply to This | # ]
|
|
|
|
|