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GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Saturday, February 28 2004 @ 11:26 PM EST

Chinese officials are saying that they will announce a law by summer that will require that a certain percentage of all software used by the government be produced in China. No one yet knows how much the percentage will be, though some say as much as 70%, but they are predicting that GNU/Linux will benefit, no matter what the percentage chosen:

"China says it is merely trying to level the playing field for its own software companies.

“'If a software program is dominant for a long time, it’s harmful for the development of the software industry,' said Li Wuqiang of the Ministry of Science and Technology. . . .

"China’s reasons for preferring Linux are many. Officials often say they feel safer with an open source operating system, because a proprietary system such as Microsoft’s Windows may contain hidden 'back doors' that programmers can use to evade security and gain access.

"'I believe the era of exorbitant profit for software should end,' said Li, the science ministry’s deputy director in charge of new technology. 'Basic software services should be cheap, just like water, electricity and gas.'”

There is also a lovely story from Israel, where Knoppix is spreading like wildfire. This article tells the story and also gives a very clear and complete description of how to use Knoppix and lists what you get with it (a lot). The reviewer is obviously very impressed. There's a version of Knoppix for students also.

"Another blow for Microsoft: on the heels of a free alternative to its Office software, a no-charge alternative operating system to Windows is now flooding the country. Knoppix, a Hebrew operating system requiring no installation, is the first real threat to the Microsoft monopoly in Israel. . . .

"Knoppix has a clear advantage over Windows: it operates directly from a CD, with no need to install it on the computer's hard disk. After a brief minute’s wait, you will discover a new and amazing world – an operating system very similar to Windows with a hoard of available programs that include Open Office (a word processor, a spreadsheet, a presentation program, and more), a graphics and multimedia program, an e-mail program, and an Internet browser. The operating system even identifies Web connections and allows you to surf Hebrew sites quickly and with no need for definitions. Knoppix contains everything home users need, saving them installation work as well as hundreds of shekels, since the program can be downloaded free of charge. That is what will make Knoppix a hit, as well as a threat to Microsoft’s total control of the market for home computer operating systems. The impact on this market is likely to be significant. Despite our request, Microsoft Israel declined to comment."

If that sounds appealing, you can get your own Knoppix in your language. Or maybe you'd like a 3-D Linux desktop?

"The transition from working desktop to fullscreen 3D environment is seamless. In other words when the pager activates you see your current desktop appear to zoom out to a point in space where you can see your other virtual desktops allowing you to select another. The best way to understand is to try it out and get the full effect!"

I definitely want to try this.

Meanwhile, Microsoft's Ballmer is reportedly pleased to hear that Munich is having a harder time and higher costs switching to GNU/Linux systems than anticipated. If this is so, it's a great opportunity for local LUGs to step up to the plate and help with the transition, don't you think? Even if they don't, the truth would seem to be that once the transition is completed, you'll never have to transition again, and so this one-time expense isn't for the life of the product, despite Ballmer's glee. Paris is now considering switching too:

"This hasn't stopped other cities, states and countries from giving open-source software a try — or at least a second look. Paris recently revealed it was studying ways of moving its 17,000 government PCs from Windows to open-source.

"Agencies in Britain, Korea and China are studying similar moves. India's president said last year that open-source software should be encouraged in his country. Even Austin, Texas, is giving Linux a try."

Ballmer's mistaken if he thinks people are switching because GNU/Linux is cheaper. I'd pay *more* to use it, personally, and I don't even hate Microsoft. I just don't trust them. It's their corporate behavior. I just naturally prefer to deal with companies I trust. The entire SCO affair reflects badly on SCO, but it splashes on to Microsoft as well. They really do need to consider their ways and realize that if the world distrusts you, or dislikes your behavior, you can't possibly succeed in business over the long term.


  


GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel | 195 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 02:21 AM EST
"realize that if the world distrusts you, or dislikes your behavior, you can't possibly succeed in business over the long term."
Hmmm, PJ have you considered running for president?

[ Reply to This | # ]

GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 02:37 AM EST
I had the good fortune to work in China (Shanghai) for two years.

The dominant impression that I came away with that this is a highly intelligent
society with a focussed and determined approach to development.

It is a communal society with a much lower emphasis on individuality than we
have in our western society.

So I think that open source, with its emphasis on shared, collective work,
should be a natural fit to their values.

Also they don't have quite the same view of intellectual property ownership that
we have and find it quite natural to share and build on the intellectual
contributions of others.

They place an enormously high emphasis on intellectual achievement at school and
university where the competition for places is brutal.

And then the Chinese people find the Internet especially fascinating, witness
the remarkable take up of Internet access.

Considering all of these things one can expect that China will wholeheartedly
embrace FOSS and more than that, their contribution to the growth of FOSS will
be very large.

Being acutely aware of easy it is for an outsider to misjudge such a complex
society I would be more than happy for our Chinese readers to correct or amplify
on my remarks.

Peter Smith (I can sign't on because I am at a foreign computer)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Spain is building $87M super computer w/Linux
Authored by: jog on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 03:02 AM EST
Check BBC news
jog

[ Reply to This | # ]

Semi-OT
Authored by: DeadWatch on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 03:15 AM EST
Just loaded up 3ddesktop... nice! Thanks for the link!

Sorry I don't have anything witty or insightful to say... it's been a bad
weekend... heh :)

[ Reply to This | # ]

3D-Desktop
Authored by: Andy on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 03:18 AM EST
3D-Desktop is definitely a cool program -- gives a new way of thinking about and
looking at virtual desktops (which despite Microsoft's recent patent, have been
around for a long time).

I recommend you have decent hardware accelerated OpenGL (with installed vendor
provided drivers) though (which pretty much means an ATI or Nvidia card from the
last year or two) to make use of it effectively. Using software rendering/Mesa
with this thing makes a SCO executive's speed at understanding what's going on
at their own company seem fast.

[ Reply to This | # ]

GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Authored by: legal insanity on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 03:20 AM EST
This is probally old news, but i think it somehow fits in. Seems like David
Aucsmith is Microsoft's security architect, and is publically saying they knew
all along windows was not secure. (not sure how to link this)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3492922.stm

tell it's not possible that M$ has seen the light.

---
Insanity Pleadings is the only Sensible Defense

[ Reply to This | # ]

GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 03:26 AM EST
I'm about as big a Linux/FOSS supporter as they come...

But I want to see Linux and FOSS software continue to grow from the choice of
people, not the choice of dictatorship.

I agree, undoubtedly, that Microsoft is a monopoly - and is using it's power as
such to control the software market.

But, you know what, Linux is better then that. Linux can beat Microsoft without
policies like this.

Personally, I (and I beleive even Linus would agree with me on this) would
rather see Linux fight the battle head on.

We don't need China's dictator to give Linux or FOSS a boost. People like you
and me are the army of FOSS/Linux - our weapon is truth - stable, secure,
reliable, low cost software, and the war - it's just barely started and already
we're dealing damage we never thought possible.

Rally, we should. Be proud, we are. But support sanctions such as the one
proposed by China, we should not.

Let Microsoft cheat. Let them lie. Let them spread untruths at will, as they
have. Laugh when you read their 'sponsored' studies.

We're going to win anyway.

The question is, when we win, do we want support from the Chinese dictatorship
to be written in history as playing a major role in the FOSS/Linux movement?

My answer is no.


-GoMMiX

[ Reply to This | # ]

GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 04:32 AM EST
There is a rather delicious irony about the Israeli Knoppix story. One of the
reasons quoted why people are trying it in such numbers is that it is so easy to
install!

So years of M$ ensuring that machines come with Windows installed have led to
Klaus Knopper refining Linux installs to the point where the install is so easy
it knocks Windows into a cocked hat.

Now the very ease of that install is threatening windows dominance. If M$ had
played fairer then perhaps the simplicity of a knoppix install would not exist.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Lack of interest
Authored by: borneo on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 05:49 AM EST
It' a general rule that you cannot kill yourself. In the same spirit you must
have a reasonnable interest to go to court. You cannot say eh Judge I'am a rich
and wealthy man and i come in front of you in the hope to become a poor and
sik.one.
The Business of TSG is uncertain because of certain FUD in the air. You find
the argument for this on their SEC filling. This happens to be relative on their
décision to sue Linux users. Linux is part of theirs business and part of the
Unixes business at the whole. It is also part of the business of others in the
Canopy group. They make so much FUD by themselves that they are now aware that
they will lose theirs business. Caldera said to Microsoft you have made FUD on
DR DOS and they win some money for that.
They cannot be allowed to destruct their own business
But they say, hey listen, when we win our case we will be rich.
I think they have to prove it. Because, i do not see in the future anyone that
do want get a licence from TSG. Linux users will probably go towards HURD if
it's mature at this time, or migrate to some BSD. And IBM will continue with AIX
and each others on the market will go the same way. So no royalty in the
foreseen.
They do not have a real interest in the suit. Maybe someone in Redmond has but
definitively not TSG.
For this, One has to ask the dismissal of the TSG case for lack of interest.

IANAL and french so forgive my bad english.

[ Reply to This | # ]

GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Authored by: blacklight on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 07:08 AM EST
"Meanwhile, Microsoft's Ballmer is reportedly pleased to hear that Munich
is having a harder time and higher costs switching to GNU/Linux systems than
anticipated."

Not that this pleasure is doing him any good. Ballmer contends that governments
choose Linux over Windows out of "political" rather than economic
consideration. If Ballmer is correct, then Microsoft has an even harder row to
hoe with the governments because the burden is on Microsoft to show that sending
boatloads of cash to Microsoft is the sounder public policy. This is not the
first time that Microsoft has dug itself into a hole through Ballmer's
pronouncements.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Warning: M$ has a software patent pending over this type of pager use!!
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 07:45 AM EST
"Or maybe you'd like a 3-D Linux desktop?

"The transition from working desktop to fullscreen 3D environment is
seamless. In other words when the pager activates you see your current desktop
appear to zoom out to a point in space where you can see your other virtual
desktops allowing you to select another. The best way to understand is to try it
out and get the full effect!"

I definitely want to try this."

If my reading of the patent is correct, the M$ patent application 20030189597
reported in slashdot and the inquirer covers this sort of virtual desktop
effect!

para 0035 of the patent application covers an "animation effect" that
shrinks the current desktop and reveals all the virtual desktops. Para 0036 of
the patent covers the effect in the "opposite manner".

So while we may have a 3D desktop and a 3D pager, we may in fact not be able to
use this shrink/expand method is M$' application is approved. Bear in mind the
patent would've been applied for 12-18 months ago for the patent application to
be available on line. Any objections or prior art claims would have to date from
before that timeframe.

Links to patent application:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG0
1&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='2003
0189597'.PGNR.&OS=DN/20030189597&RS=DN/20030189597

[ Reply to This | # ]

New potential MS problem
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 08:35 AM EST
The Beeb is reporting that MS (among others) has new problems developing in the EU see Here

[ Reply to This | # ]

A few side notes on Munich and Ballmer's remarks
Authored by: TobiasBXL on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 09:05 AM EST

The Toronto Star writes:

„ Today, Munich's Linux switchover is proving more costly and complex than anticipated, according to news reports out of Germany. You can't blame Ballmer for feeling a bit of schadenfreude, as the Germans would say.“

According to those news reports out of Germany, the switchover is more complex and probably more expensive than anticipated. I have read some of those original reports and they all have one thing in common. They all mention the internal resistance and opposition of people inside the Munich agencies that would rather stick to existing or new Microsoft solutions. It seems FUD has struck again.

To understand the situation in Munich you have to know some background details not being mentioned by PJ and the Toronto Star article concerning the Munich story. Shortly after the majority of City Council members had voted in favour of SuSE/IBM members of the opposition party CSU announced that they would contact the regional government of Bavaria to revoke the decision of the council. The Bavarian government is in the hands of the CSU and according to rumours and news reports there seem to be close links between members of the local Munich CSU to Microsoft Germany which is coincidentally located in Munich too. Since the announcement to revoke the council's decision aroused a lot of press coverage, the decision of the council hasn't been questioned from the CSU government so far. Soon afterwards, Microsoft Germany as well as the those protesting CSU council members declined they considered to contact the regional government to revoke the council's decision.

With this background information I wanted to show to you that MS can count on political support from the local Munich CSU which has strongly opposed the Open Source solution (although a local company, SuSE from Nürnberg would have benefited).

The Toronto Star also writes:

“"They're saying it's more expensive," Ballmer told the Star yesterday.

"All of a sudden it's more expensive now to use the Linux solution than the Windows solution," he said after appearing at Microsoft's annual Can-Win event in Toronto.”

Ballmer is spreading FUD again. It isn't more expensive to use the Linux solution, it is all of a sudden more expensive to switch from Windows to the Linux solution rather than stay with MS. And I'm going to tell you why I think this is happening in Munich.

Ballmer has not given up on Munich yet. He knows he can still win. Whoever has been following the embarrassing revelations around the very expensive and failed highway toll project run by a consortium called Toll Collect (the only thing they have been collecting so far is German tax money...) knows that large IT projects can fail and in the process be redistributed to new contractors so maybe all Ballmer needs to do is help the opposition in Munich make the switch to Linux fail by raising internal resistance and making costs explode. He can count on help from the local CSU who has people inside the agencies.

In the end he'll point a finger to Munich and say: “That's what happens when communities try to switch to Linux.” It's a shame the local CSU is such a shameful band of lobby-connected no-goods.

Be vigilant,

Tobias W.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Hey PJ, Windows Monopoly ain't safe
Authored by: dodger on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 09:06 AM EST
The monopolist wants nothing more than to find ways to continue his strangle
hold on the market (browser, media player, drivers, distributers) and eliminate
compeditors like any good preditor. Like genetics, when the DNA pool becomes too
small, there is inbreeding, lack of diversity, vunerablity towards viruses; it's
a runaway ego. Software is too important
to the new world to have artificial market influences limit its scope,
development, and increase its costs.

Perhaps it is our job to figure out what role Microsoft could/should play in a
SANE world. God, that's a challenge!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Trust Microsoft.
Authored by: JustFree on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 09:21 AM EST
It has to do with choice.

The article does not say why the “Munich's Linux switchover is proving more
costly and complex than anticipated”. This newspaper is relying on just rehashed
material, and does not do any further investigation. Hey, the switchover may
still be less expensive in the long term.

This may be a reality about Linux. Munich may have made some mistakes in cost
projections. I previously read the article, and shrugged it off as irrelevant.
This reminds me of the “Power MacG5 processor powers the Virginia Tech’s world
class supercomputer.” They created “their own PowerMac G5 clusters with
off-the-shelf components”. Hey this I believe this can be done with Linux.

What I did miss was this “prompted Ballmer to cut short a family vacation and
pay a visit to the Munich mayor.” How arrogant of Steve Ballmer. It has to do
with choice. At work I use Microsoft Office, since that is what the clients want
when I send them documents. Munich may have had their original reason proven
unfeasible. With Microsoft's “tie-in” licensing plan, Munich mayor might have
quickly shown Mr. Ballmer the door.

The reality I am talking about is that they may be addition factor that has
cause this. It could be a mistake in the planning. No insult intended to the
excellent IT professionals working for the city of Munich. What this can do is
help other city and governmental agencies to study the problems that Munich in
their migration from Windows and other Microsoft products. I choice not to use
Microsoft products since I feel that the quality of their products undermine
Micosoft's dominance is the market. So :)> to Steve.

[ Reply to This | # ]

The Knoppix by Klaus Knopper?
Authored by: gakulev on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 09:53 AM EST
" ... Knoppix, a Hebrew operating system ... "

Unless a case of name duplication, this
statement is wrong.

Knoppix is based on Debian GNU/Linux and was
developped by Klaus Knopper http://www.knopper.net/knopper/
(site in german). The international project pages
are at http://www.knoppix.net

Gakulev

--
May the source be with you.

[ Reply to This | # ]

GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 10:01 AM EST
The Maariv article says, "To install Knoppix, download the appropriate
version (about 600 mega) and burn it onto a disk." So, then, the principal
value of Microsoft Windows XP is its ability to download and burn the Knoppix
flavor of your choice.

-AIB.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Being realistic about China
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 10:11 AM EST
What I find amazing is China has decided to take a stand for free software,
inspite of being accused of major piracy. I've been to China and have seen the
copies of "Lord of the Rings" on video store shelves shorty after
release in US theaters. I've also saw over two years ago that computer stores
were stocked with as many Linux systems as Windows, in spite of the ability yo
pick up pirated copies.

Also let us be realistic, my wife who is Chinese, made $120 as a college
professor in China - way more than the national average. She had a very
comfortable life because goods bought and sold in the country are the same scale
- how about 10 cents for breakfast... SInce Microsoft has a policy (about to
change?) of selling Microsoft products for the same price around the world, what
whas China's choice. They can't afford the artificially high prices, and they
can't afford according to WTO rules, to ignore piracy.

They had 2 choices.

1. Bankrupt the country to pay for foreign software.
2. Focus on a home grown software and keep people working

This isn't protectionism, this is economic reality. Just ask those in the US
who's jobs have been outsourced about keeping jobs at home.

Also, do not believe everything you hear about the Chinese government. Yes, we
do enjoy freedoms that they do not. But they also enjoy access to the world,
versus US, press that we do not. I think both countries coul learn from each
other.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Austin? Don't forget Largo, FL
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 11:00 AM EST
Austin isn't the only U.S. city moving to Linux. Largo is near Tampa and has already made the switch. This article is over a year old, but it gives links to earlier times when Largo was making the transition.

Largo loves Linux more than ever

---------------

[ Reply to This | # ]

GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Authored by: PeteS on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 11:37 AM EST
I've looked at a lot of comments, and a few points need to be made, really.

First and foremost, the Chinese governement is not precluding the use of Microsoft (or any other vendors) products; they are simply stating that the government will use at least a high percentage of F/OSS operating systems/utilities/programs for a number of reasons.

The reasons primarily are:

1. Cost

2. Security

3. Competitive edge (sorta part of 1, but not quite the same)

Cost: It's not just the cost of Windows; it's the cost of a professional grade development system per programmer. By the time one acquires all the necessary licenses to do serious work (especially device drivers), the cost is of the order of $5k per computer per year (unless you get a site deal which allows for per-use seat licensing, but it's still expensive). This is cost prohibitive in China, which despite being a rising economic force, still has a very low per-capita income. F/OSS tools make a lot of sense.

Security:

There are two things here: backdoors and open data formats.

The Chinese are rightly concerned there may be backdoors in WinX. A few years ago, when crypto rules were under attack, the US government wanted to mandate backdoors for any strong encryption products. Did M$ oblige and put those in for NSA/CIA/[your choice of black helicopter outfit here]?

No-one really knows, but without the source who can tell? Notably, it is possible to put backdoors in systems where it can not be traced (see this particularly evil piece of work by Dennis Ritchie)

Data Formats: We have talked extensively here (and elsewhere) about being locked in to M$ products because the data format is proprietary and can only be accessed by M$ tools. Open data formats prevent this type of lock in. It does not prevent someone from writing a program that runs on WinX that accesses that data. This does not limit the OS choice; it broadens it.

Competitive edge

Cost and security aside, to have a competitive edge, you should leverage your skills and not reinvent the wheel. As F/OSS has shown, much of what M$ licenses is availble (in the form of Linux and various tools) as a commodity. This means that the Chinese can spend their time and money solving computing problems, not paying for a commodity item.

Nothing here prevents them buying proprietary solutions if they are not commodities and give value greater than the cost of making their own solution.

I know a number of Chinese engineers working in the USA, and I find them to be smart, well educated and hard working. As to the note about dictatorships, that will sort itself out in the long run anyway - once the Pandora's box of free and open information is open, there's no going back; and dictatorships can not survive the free flow of information.

I prefer to look at China using F/OSS as a great liberator; after all, the entire philosophy of F/OSS is freedom.

Just my $0.02

---
Today's subliminal thought is:

[ Reply to This | # ]

No Politics Please
Authored by: PJ on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 12:14 PM EST
Groklaw is not a political site. It's a tech site, and a legal research site,
and
an antiFUD site.

When there are news stories about any particular country, it has nothing to do
with politics. Please don't insert political views into the discussion here.
Groklaw has no politics. We have an international readership. To keep the
discussion on topic, it's vital to keep politics out of it. It is also my
personal
preference, and it's my site, so I ask for your cooperation. Thank you.

The reason China's decision is news is this: the population of China is such
that whatever stand the country takes foreshadows the way the world will go.
It's simple math. It has nothing to do with politics. A VC guy explained it
to
me last year, telling me that whatever China decided on the GUN/Linux issue
would tell you whether MS could kill it off or not.

Political comments will be deleted, so it would help my workload if you would
just save them for other forums.

[ Reply to This | # ]

GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 12:16 PM EST
The proposed quota system in China would be a violation of WTO rules to which
China is a member. I would hate to think that Linux would benefit from such a
mercantilist policy. Instead, I want Linux to win based on the fact that it is
the best OS, and not because of some stupid quota system that various
governments are using. Linux stands for openness, fairness, and above all,
quality. If Linux needs any laws that are not in harmony with these ideals,
then it will have failed as social movement.

[ Reply to This | # ]

70% of What?
Authored by: John Hasler on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 01:52 PM EST
Sales volume? Number of applications? Disk space? Installations?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Austin, TX
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 03:19 PM EST
Even Austin, Texas, is giving Linux a try.

Unfortunately, the news here in the Austin area is not good. The tech journalist Joe Barr came and spoke last week to the Capital Area Central Texas Unix Society, of which I'm a member. Seems that Microsoft came to the Austin city government a while back, as apparently they have to many cities, and demanded a BSA style software audit of all their computers, most of which were bought from Dell and are still running Windows. They brought a carrot and a stick. The stick is a potential $150,000 copyright infringement penalty for every machine in the city's offices running Windows for which a licence couldn't be produced. The carrot is a multi-year licensing agreement for something around $200 per year per machine for every machine capable of running Windows, whether it does or not. The choice was between these two. City officials won't talk about it since basically it amounts to capitulation to extortion, but apparently felt they had little choice. To add insult to injury, most of Austin's computers were purchased from Dell, which is right up the road in Round Rock, and because they came with Windows pre-installed, the license fee for these machines was already paid! This apprently didn't figure into Microsoft's compulsory licensing offer.

According to Joe, the same thing is going on is cities all over the US. MS tried the same thing on the TX Department of Crimanal Justice. Apparently, as Joe put it, the TX DCJ folks in effect asked MS if they could count in binary on their fingers, and if so, to please consider the number 4 <grin>. MS left them alone.

Austin did have a pilot project in one department (I forget which) which tried out Linux and Open Source. One of the employees in the department spoke to the IT press about it and how well it was going. The result was that the department was, in effect slashdotted. They were deluged with questions and requests for information, and the fellow who talked to the press almost lost his job. The upshot is that if local and state governments in the US are trying F/OSS software, they'll probably keep it pretty much keep it to themselves.

fmouse (browsing from his laptop so he's not logged in)

[ Reply to This | # ]

  • Austin, TX - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 04:26 PM EST
  • Will Microsoft indemnify me for that risk? - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 05:11 PM EST
  • illegal? - Authored by: m_si_M on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 06:23 PM EST
    • illegal? - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 07:48 PM EST
      • illegal? - Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 09:10 PM EST
    • illegal? - Authored by: grouch on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 11:44 PM EST
  • Austin, TX - Authored by: PM on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 10:39 PM EST
Linux is produced in China?
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 03:32 PM EST
If 70% of the software used in China must be produced there then I guess Linux
would have to take up part of the other 30% because last I checked, a very small
percentage of Linux code comes from China. Granted, there is more code in there
from China than there is from SCO but still. :)

Yes, there is a distribution of Linux called "Red Flag Linux" that
comes out of China but still a vast majority (I would be willing to bet much
more than 95%) of the code in the distribution comes from programmers outside of
China.

I don't understand how this is necessarily good for Open Source, but I am sure I
must have missed something.

Void

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3D desktop
Authored by: borneo on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 04:27 PM EST
what was the name of this 3D calc by LOTUS ?
I must have it somewhere in the basement.

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  • 3D desktop - Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 01 2004 @ 12:38 PM EST
Munich's 'problems'
Authored by: myklgrant on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 04:43 PM EST
That Munich is having transition problems is not suprising. Microsoft has based their entire business on making it impossible to move to another OS. Think about DR-DOS. If Munich's team would have said "this is easy, everyone should do it" then the game would be over for MS. I think what Mr. Ballmer is feeling is relief not glee. His statement about linux being more expensive is spurious. The mere fact that there is an alternative means that there can be a price comparison. If there was no OSS alternative MS could (and does) charge whatever they want and not have to worry about being more (or less) expensive. OSS's main goal should be to provide a choice to MS's monopoly. Then world domination ;-D

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Hear, hear!
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 29 2004 @ 06:43 PM EST
    They really do need to consider their ways and realize that if the world distrusts you, or dislikes your behavior, you can't possibly succeed in business over the long term.
Well said, well put! Microsoft's business tatics have led to an industry-wide mistrust. Look at how MS back-stabbed IBM w/r/t OS/2 vs. Win NT. Or how it treated Citrix through the introduction of its bundled Terminal Services. MS taking an interest in your product is a frightening proposition -- best hope is to take their offer to be bought out (vis-a-vis Netscape).

Just this morning I was thinking that if this were the 80's, Microsoft would be producing software for GNU/Linix and the BSDs as fast as possible. Maybe even try its hand at a desktop managing system or even a distribution. Today Microsoft does everything it can to ignore or ridicule gains by GNU/Linux in its marketspace backyard. What happened?

Consider: the Microsoft of the mid-80's had the appearance of being a software provider on various personal computing and business computing platforms: IBM PC, Macintosh, Xenix, Unix (e.g., Word for Unix 5.5). Of course, eventually MS committed to the idea of owning the application market and the OS market so that it would control the entire personal computing and business computing markets from just above hardware on up. To do so meant it had to crush everyone and destroy every competitor in the process. And it did. Only federal regulators stopped MS from swallowing up Quicken and thereby automated personal banking services (which depended on the business relationships it engendered and which were the real value of Quicken).

Pre-dominant and monopolizing Microsoft saw emerging popular computing platforms as a venue for its applications. I'm thinking about the Macintosh, an alternative platform to MS-/PC-DOS, with its many popular, if not totally Apple Interface Guidlines compliant interfaces, applications.

But the Microsoft of today is in a quandry. It is not only "king of the hill" in its market -- it owns the hill and has buried the bodies of its vanquished beneath that hill. Now, continuing with the hill analogy, there is a new hill being constructed where Free software is emerging as a popular computing platform for business and personal computing. But Microsoft can't bear to admit the existence of another hill, much less compete for marketshare on it. What a scene! "I own this hill! It is mine! Climb it at my descretion only!" And the reaction of the people is, "Hey over there! That's a good spot to build a hill! Come on, everyone! Let's start building!"

Microsoft of the 80's would be attempting to develop the slickest, most useful software for the GNU/Linux and BSD platforms. Even if it couldn't have the OS, it would win the application market. Microsoft of the 90's, through its crushing defeat of all competitors and partners, set Microsoft of the 00's up for a fall. Now, any market changes signal an erosion of Microsoft's dominate position -- as new markets develop outside Microsoft's control they will not be seen as new markets for Microsoft to win in, but rather as indications that consumers are not pleased with Microsoft product offerings.

How fitting that Microsoft chokes on the v*m*t of its own gluttonous excess. And about time, too.

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OT: Microsoft Talks Up Computing As A Career
Authored by: Erbo on Monday, March 01 2004 @ 01:43 AM EST
New York Times, March 1:
Bill Gates went on a campaign tour last week, trying to reinvigorate his base, as they say in politics. The number of students majoring in computer science is falling, even at the elite universities. So Mr. Gates went stumping at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Carnegie Mellon, Cornell, M.I.T. and Harvard, telling students that they could still make a good living in America, even as the nation's industry is sending some jobs, like software programming, abroad.
The article talks about falling enrollment in computer science programs at major universities--in some cases, a drop of 33% in just the last two years. Dave Winer claims this is because "most students didn't enroll in computer science because they wanted to work for Bill Gates; they wanted to be the next Bill Gates."

I disagree somewhat with this assessment, and believe that the true situation marks a long-term trend for Microsoft as troubling as the Chinese announcement, if not more so. What I'm thinking is, the dot-bomb and the ensuing troubled times are shaking out those "marginal" people who decided to enroll in computer science because they thought it was a ticket to "easy money." Those that are left will be the ones who have a real enthusiasm and vocation (one is tempted to say "calling") for the profession. Those are the same people who are most likely to be dissatisfied with Microsoft's product offerings, and to be enthusiasts for FOSS systems such as GNU/Linux and BSD. In a decade or so, a good many of them are going to be out in the workforce, influencing the choices companies make in their preferred operating systems, development tools, applications, and other computer programs. Given enough time for these graduates to spread their influence, Microsoft is doomed.

Obviously, Microsoft is doing their best to counterattack this trend, by generously seeding universities with their products at reduced cost (or no cost), attempting to win over the hearts and minds of future developers in their "formative years." It remains to be seen how successful this effort will be.

---
Electric Minds - virtual community since 1996. http://www.electricminds.org

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GNU/Linux Use Growing in China and Israel
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 01 2004 @ 05:57 PM EST
I have to say that China's statements read like a breath of fresh air. I have
to really give them credit. I couldnt have put it better myself.

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