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Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 04:53 PM EST

Here's a story you might be interested in. It seems these folks don't feel able to migrate Newham's government computers from Windows to Linux for a number of reasons, principally because of costs associated with upgrading Exchange Server. They say there is no Linux desktop that will support that "the out-of-date collaboration server". Anyone know a solution or a workaround?

Other issues are cost of retraining and some loss of functionality, they say, in OpenOffice/StarOffice compared to Windows. Perhaps someone reading this will be able to list some solutions or offer a helping hand, especially if you are located in London. And for the rest of us, notice how the total cost of ownership FUD worked here.

Newham Borough Council has shelved its Linux desktop trials and will remain with Microsoft, citing the cost of upgrading its Microsoft Exchange Server software as a primary cause.

The East London council's trial was one of nine Office of Government Commerce supported local authority open source trials announced late last year.

But Newham's use of Microsoft Exchange Server 5.5 foiled this plan, primarily because there was no available Linux desktop client to support the out-of-date collaboration server. . . . Gary Barnett, principal analyst at Ovum, commented: "The biggest issue in cost of ownership studies is cost of migration. [Newham] has hit on a classic example."


  


Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand? | 222 comments | Create New Account
Comments belong to whoever posts them. Please notify us of inappropriate comments.
Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Ed Freesmeyer on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:16 PM EST
<cynicism> Looks like Cost-of-Ownership FUD to cover up a reality of
vendor lock-in.</cynicism>

Something from Suse rings a bell here, but it may not support the older exchange
version. "Exchange Connector" or something like that is supposed to
allow desktops to integrate to MS Exchange servers. Just a potential lead - I
don't know enough about the product to know if it interoperates with Exchange
5.5.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: rand on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:20 PM EST
Well, it's always cheaper to not upgrade at all. We just bought a boxload of
NT4 and Win95 licenses and will hit the markets soon to snag some Win98's. We
have software that would need a complete re-write to run on either Linux OR a
newer MS OS. I figure the company can either "upgrade" to XP-Pro or
Linux and I take a year or two to reengineer everything, or we keep using
software that works and buy cheap-arse white boxes.

---
The Wright brothers were not the first to fly an aircraft...they were the first
to LAND an aircraft. (IANAL and whatever)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: sjohnson on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:20 PM EST
If they must stick with Exchange -

Ximian's Evolution (free) and Ximian's Exchange Connector Plugin (Not free but very reasonable)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:21 PM EST
"But Newham's use of Microsoft Exchange Server 5.5 foiled this plan,
primarily because there was no available Linux desktop client to support the
out-of-date collaboration server. . . . "Gary Barnett, principal analyst
at Ovum, commented: 'The biggest issue in cost of ownership studies is cost of
migration. [Newham] has hit on a classic example.'"

There unfortunately is not a connector for exchange 5.5 since it's old. There
is however a connector that is provided by ximian for exchange 2000 or exchange
2003.


http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/10/pr03067.html

[ Reply to This | # ]

Why stick with the exchange server?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:21 PM EST
Depending on what they need, they might just be better off scrapping the
exchange server and going for a totally open-source solution.

What exactly do they mean by "collaboration" is tough to guess, but
there are vast solutions out there.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:24 PM EST
If they are moving over to linux, why stay with exchange? There are
alternatives, they just sound too lazy to investigate their options.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: oo on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:27 PM EST
What do they mean by collaboration? Anyone have a link to their specs?
There's Kroupware for example: http://kroupware.org

---
m.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: jesse on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:30 PM EST
Ximian is supposed to have Exchange support:

http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS8366821377.html

Also there is Ximian Evolution, which is supposed to be equivalent to
Exchange...

It isn't quite open... but is cheaper.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:31 PM EST
What? I administer an aging Exchange 5.5 server at work, and my Mozilla email
client connects just fine with it via IMAP. I can also browse our contact lists
stored on Exchange via Mozilla via LDAP.

The only thing Mozilla won't do is Exchange's calendaring, or if they have any
Exchange-specific workflow stuff they've built in-house. But there are plenty
of other calendaring solutions and they can't possibly have a gazillion dollars
worth of custom workflow...

Is there a local LUG we can send over?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:39 PM EST
Hrmmm, well, why use Exchange at all? Rather than upgrade an Exchange server, switch server apps.

July article about OpenGoupware.org
OpenGroupware.org homepage

OGo is a sister site/project of OOo. I haven't used it personally, but going over the features, etc, I can't really see where an old Exchange server offers any advantages, or why they'd need to stay w/ Exchange in the first place. If you're switching desktop clients, why keep the MS server platform? Just a quick thought and a few minutes of Googling.

-Tomcat

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: jmc on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:47 PM EST
The problem is that the UK central government "Government Gateway"
with which they have to communicate is locked into M$.

Most UK banks only let you into Internet banking with non-M$ when they're in a
good mood and you're not desperate (a bit like them only lending you an
umbrella when it's not raining).

I suspect that's part of the underlying reasons and because Tony Blair is in
Bill G's pocket (when he isn't in GWB's).

[ Reply to This | # ]

It's not a TCO problem
Authored by: miniver on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:49 PM EST

I read the article -- It's not a TCO problem. The problem is that while there are Linux clients that support Microsoft Exchange, none of the current clients support MS Exchange 5.5, which is what they're currently running. The cost that they can't afford is the cost to upgrade MS Exchange 5.5 to something newer that IS supported.

Sadly, they're the victims of vendor-lock-in, because MS doesn't support exporting your existing mail/calendar/etc data out of Exchange into a portable/common format. Until they're willing to (a) chuck all of their old data, or (b) upgrade to a newer version of Exchange, they're stuck allright. Of course, once they upgrade to Exchange 2000, they'll have a server that is supported by Linux clients AND supports IMAP, which would allow them to export their data (if somewhat laboriously) to another mail server. But if they can't budget to upgrade their server, eventually they're going to lose all access to their data, due to hardware failure.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Exchange 5.5?
Authored by: pitr256 on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 05:50 PM EST
If they are running Exchange 5.5 and can't afford to switch to another open
source choice or SuSE's OpenExchange Server, then they WILL have to upgrade
eventually because MS will no longer be supporting Exchange 5.5 after Dec. 31,
2003

http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/support/lifecycle/Changes.asp

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 06:01 PM EST
Maybe all this talk about keeping or ditching the exchange servers is not really
relevant.
Could it not be that this just shows us the mindset of the consumer on this
level. We have this, this works fine, we gotta have new ..this.. how do we do
this with that without that becomming obsolete.

Now I do not believe that the OSS community is out to get all IP software
products. ( I believe they could, but they won't )
Thats simply not the way that OSS community works.

If these people can not do without the fucntion that this exchange setup offers,
then don't let them switch. ( now )

I think it is very plausible that in the case of vendor lockin situations as
displayed here, the TCO of switching can go in favor of IP products simply
because some companies or bodies of gov. do not have the will/man-power to do
this all.

In the end they will switch anyway.

Retep Vosnul

[ Reply to This | # ]

The register's view
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 06:04 PM EST
the register covered this a couple of days ago

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/34724.html

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe they never intended to migrate?
Authored by: whoever57 on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 06:11 PM EST
They have 2 options:
1. Migrate desktops to Linux. Upfront cost for desktops is small, however they
have to upgrade the server.
2. Stay with MS. They have to upgrade both Desktops now and Server later.

I don't believe the upfront cost is less with MS than Linux, unless they got a
huge discount from MS. So, if they had the budget to stay with MS, they had the
budget to migrate.

Plausible explanation: having established a high-profile of their possiblity to
migrate, they were in a very strong position to twist MS's arm very hard and
get massive discounts. Perhaps that was the goal all along?




---
-----
For a few laughs, see "Simon's Comic Online Source" at
http://scosource.com/index.html

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 06:33 PM EST
The Kolab server unites Microsoft outlook compatibility (using a pain plug in)
and a free client for linux (Kontact) thete is also the Aethera free client for
linux _and_ windows.
The project was paid by an agency of the german government.

So you can:
1) ditch exchange and save licence fees.
2) maintain the Outlook clients as you migrate.
3) use free clients for linux (not like Ximian Evolution)
4) use free clients for windows (the Kompany Aethera).
5) use a web client anywere (HORDE)

The working name of the project was kroupware, but this is not the name of the
server. The server is Kolab
www.kolab.org. The server is not tied to any desktop environment. In fact, it is
administered by a web interface.
opengroupware.org recomend using its infrastructure.
http://www.opengroupware.org/en/related/kolab/index.html

It seems to be the best _no strings attached_ server, as it is made of tested
open components.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: lpletch on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 06:36 PM EST
From the article...

Gary Sussex, ICT service manager at Newham, said: "Exchange is getting old and the hardware is getting old. We know we've got to move but we have no funding to do so at present.

It looks like they can't afford to do anything at all right now.

They are using outdated software and it works.

Why upgrade?

Newham IT director Richard Steel said that the council is now negotiating with Microsoft to find new ways of licensing to gain greater flexibility on behalf of the whole of local government.

Oh! Thats why. They are talking to MS.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 06:43 PM EST
www.net-itech.com

Solve their problems in minutes.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need another protocol?
Authored by: bratner on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 06:53 PM EST
If i'm not mistaken Exchange 5.5 supports IMAP
so do any mail client app (mozilla mail, kmail,evolution).
Why won't they use it - i know some really big companies
that use IMAP as their main mail-access protocol.

Exchange 5.5 is also a pretty standart LDAP server
so the Organizational Address book issue is probably solved
by that.

The last problem is the Organizational Calendar
which i simply don't know nothing about the way it works.

2/3 of a solution - supplied.

regards,
Boris Ratner.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 07:03 PM EST
"Newham IT director Richard Steel said that the council is now negotiating
with Microsoft to find new ways of licensing to gain greater flexibility on
behalf of the whole of local government."

"Gary Barnett, principal analyst at Ovum, commented: 'The biggest issue
in cost of ownership studies is cost of migration. [Newham] has hit on a classic
example.'"

Okay I'll give them some clue:

The only thing I've learned from all of the "Linux Total Cost of
Ownership" studies that I've seen in the past is: that you shouldn't
cancel the Linux desktop trial before you finish negotiating with Microsoft on
the new price you are going to pay for their products;-)


---
"Ideas once placed before the public without the protection of a valid
patent are subject to appropriation without significant restraint" -
Justice O'Connor

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 07:09 PM EST
their is a version of wine (i forget the name) which can run ms office.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 07:20 PM EST
Exim+Cyrus for mail and mail-like "shared folders"
Anything with LDAP for directory service.
Mozilla or Evolution for clients.
There should be some "shared calendar" applications, however I
don't use them, so I can't recommend any.

And there are things like Samsung Contact (former HP Openmail) that are
basically large pieces of software that imitate Exchange.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Poster Child for Vendor Lock-in!
Authored by: Tsu Dho Nimh on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 07:37 PM EST
It's not a TCO thing ... it's vendor lock in and proprietary data formats
keeping them slaved to MSFT.

How much would dumping the whole server for an OSS solution (and customiszing
it) cost, compared to the cost of paying MSFT repeatedly?

[ Reply to This | # ]

No solution possible!
Authored by: blhseawa on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 07:44 PM EST
If there is a hard requirement to use Exchange functionality, regardless of
version than there is no solution. Simple statement of fact!

This is a case of vendor lock-in, and the failure to provide an open protocol /
open software solution. There have been several attempts at calendaring,
scheduling and workflow apps, but to date there are no complete set of open
standards or software provide complete integrated functionality. It is a real
shame.

People have tried to cobble several pieces together, and some get close, but
none are able to provide the same level of functionality in either and
integrated client/server, or seperated client/server approach. The good enough
princple, just doesn't cut it this case.

If they use exchange calendaring functionality, which is quite extensive, it is
only supported with MAPI (M$ Messaging API) and is a closed proprietary
protocol.

If they also require public folders functionality, there is again no open
standard that provides similiar functionality.

For many corporations, that lack of open protocol / open software replacement
for the functionality provide by exchange, will be a difficult thing for open
protocol / open source software to provide.

The same thing can be said for Novell's Groupware, or IBM Notes.

I'm not aware of any effort to duplicate Exchange, Notes, or Groupware
functionality as open source.

The Xiaman Connector costs ($) becuase of royalities required by M$ for the
(MAPI) implementation.

There have been several attempts to create open stadards, but none have
succeeded.

SMTP lacks considerable capabilites of these other messaging systems because of
the lack of integrated calendaring, and message stores (public folders, group
folders, etc), including sharing calendars, group calendars, resource calendars,
etc.

Regards,
blhseawa

[ Reply to This | # ]

Contacting them with your ideas?
Authored by: jkondis on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 07:47 PM EST
I hope folks are telling Newham about these solutions. For convenience, try these:

Info on the mayor:

http://apps.newham.g ov.uk/democracy/mayor/mayor.htm [he looks a bit like Bill G., kinda scary...]

Info on the city council:

http://www. newham.gov.uk/content/category.jsp?categoryID=297

The mayor link has a "get in touch" link for emails.

...J

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 08:04 PM EST
and with the FUD machine in "traditional press", who can avoid to rethink (twice) about using opensource... please look at this http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1817&e=6&u=/cmp/20 040108/tc_cmp/17200538&sid=96120750

Some kind of a press reporter, i would like to get as much as money they win with those lies, just telling the truth as you PJ... Thanks for the space...

Linux is for everyone but not everyone is for Linux...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Oracle Colab. Suite?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 08:12 PM EST
Maybe its not free, but I think that Oracle Collaboration Suite was marketed as
a replacement for Exchange Servers and it has it all. We are using it here and
it works just fine.

Its not free, but much cheaper than MS Exchange Server and
you need just one server instead of many.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 08:24 PM EST
I Just post the last posting but the link was bad

This is the real thing FUD at work

Thanx for the space

Linux is for everyone but not everyone is for Linux

[ Reply to This | # ]

EU gives a helping hand
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 08:27 PM EST

The EU has an Open Source/Libre working group. Within this group they have privided a 148 page detailed study and map on how to migrate from any/all M$ systems to Libre systems (Libre == Free). They also have available data for Excell or the Open Office spreadsheet for purposes of cost comparison, as well as a 5 page .pdf explanatory note for the cost comparison.

The migration paper is here. The Excell data are here. The Open Office data are here. The explanatory paper for the spreadsheet cost comparison data are here.

Th e main page for these efforts is here. And the working group is here.

This should be everything that anyone would need to determine whether to migrate to Libre software or stay with M$. This paper and the paper that I mentioned in an earlier post here are major FUD busters for the PHB.

These papers also contain any and all information to obliterate any Enderle, DiDio, Skiba, etc. The homework has already been done and published.

Read it and weep M$!

Skip Oliphant

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 08:29 PM EST
Bynari (www.bynari.net) sells an email-collaboration environment which runs on Linux. It looks like they have migration tools/procedures built-in so it might be relatively easy to move from Exchange. Samsung's Contact (www.samsungcontact.com) is another email-collaboration environment for Linux. Third party migration tools are available. From 'theage.com.au':

Businesses can avoid a costly move from Exchange 5.5 to Exchange 2003 by using two migration tools that enable them to move existing data to Samsung Contact on Linux, a media release from Custom Technology says.

Custom Technology managing director Gordon Hubbard said his company had partnered with two leading suppliers of migration tools: OpenOne Corporation, developer of Direct-TO-1, and Enterprise Messaging Communications Corporation (EMCom), developer of Migration Manager.

A pure FOSS solution would be ideal but I think commercial email-collaboration tools could be used as a stepping stone for organisations evolving from a proprietary form to an open form. It will cost a fraction of a proprietary platform initially and give you two valuable things in return : freedom and choice. Now that's one damn fine ROI.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 08:35 PM EST
Lots of alternatives.<BR>
I have been using phprojekt for some time now for a medium sized installation.
Works just fine on an OSS stack and
modest hardware.<BR>
Alternatively, they can toss Exchange in favour of the
Ximian(?) Exchange look-alike. They should at least
install SAMBA on BSD for file serving.<BR>
I think the story should serve as a warning against
proprietary systems and protocols. It demonstrates nicely
that the Microsoft road, once embarked upon is very narrow,
and expensive to back out from.<BR>
Reading between the lines, there is more going on here,
and its probably something to do with the comfort zones
of upper management.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 09:30 PM EST
The lack of good Exchange support and Groupware in Open Source is the primary
thing holding FOSS desktops back in corporations. I work in a 6000 person
company with Exchange calendering and address books. I've been using Mozilla,
but it totally sucks not to have appointment emails insert themselves in my
calendar or use the company-wide address book. As far as I can tell, Evolution
doesn't work on Windows. Opengroupware is not ready for primetime ,and anyway,
if it doesn't communicate with Exchange, it is as much of a non-starter as when
StarOffice couldn't read MS Office documents (fortunately much improved since
OpenOffice 1.0).

[ Reply to This | # ]

TCO FUD didn't work at all
Authored by: mdchaney on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 09:30 PM EST
Microsoft's TCO FUD mentions migration (last I looked), but they're
concentrating on long-term costs. Their catch is that, while Linux (et al) is
free up front, the long-term TCO is higher. Then they back it up with made-up
numbers. Anyway, I'm glad to see that they didn't buy that line in this
case.

I agree with them that there are significant up front costs involving retraining
staff and possibly document conversion. However, I would argue that the
long-term savings (despite what Microsoft says) will more than make up for that
given a one or two year maximum timeframe.

[ Reply to This | # ]

more FUD
Authored by: brenda banks on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 09:31 PM EST
http://tinyurl.com/yqp9j
this one bothered me so much i didnt even want to post a line from it


---
br3n

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: eamacnaghten on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 09:54 PM EST
There is a suspicion that Newham never intended to go the OpenSource route in
the first place, but were simply looking at it to use as a bargaining chip in
getting cheaper upgrades from Microsoft.

I do not know if that is true or not, certainly though the reasons not going OS
stated in the article seem a bit flakey to me. Saying you need to upgrade
desktops at 82 locations but cannot upgrade one obsolete Exchange Server is
weird.

There are some valid points in the article - cost of retraining is not trivial -
but I would of thought you could have contra'd that against savings in
licensing fees.

[ Reply to This | # ]

different approach
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 10:09 PM EST
exchange is "nice" for what it does, and its hard, if not
impossible, to find an open source/free software alternative to it. The
"collaberation" features, such as shared calanders & folders etc
are the killer, but probobly the biggest reason there is no good alternative
that is widely known/used is that the same goals can be acomplished without the
client/server realationship - a company intranet makes much more sense for
sharing of corporate information and only requires a browser on the workstation.
All an exchange shared folder is is really a dressed up message bord - plenty of
free altenatives to that. Integrate that with web based e-mail & throw in
some calander functionality what else would you need?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Exchange compatible alternatives exist
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 11:05 PM EST
The Newham Borough Council may look at Samsung Contact, which if I recall
correctly is MS Exchange 5.5 compatible. It bases on the former HP OpenMail
product. Another alternative to look at would be Bynari Insight.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Did you all miss something here... they are gonna have to change no matter what!!!
Authored by: tleps on Thursday, January 08 2004 @ 11:09 PM EST
Interesting excuse they are using. As I recall from Microsoft’s “end of product
life” information (see previous article about this for links), Microsoft is
ending (well, actually has ended as of 12-31-2003) support for Exchange 5.5. It
is true that they offer “extended support”, but that is anything but free or
inexpensive, and “hot fixes” are over the end of this current calendar year
(2004) anyhow…

It would seem from this that they are going to have to migrate
to something no matter how they look at it – either up to Exchange 2000 or 2003,
or to some other application (I would recommend Suse Open Exchange, it has all
the calendaring & then some, not to mention while it does work through
clients such as Outlook, it’s real power is it’s web browser interface. Just a
damn great product actually…) – unless they plan on using an unsupported
application (that they obviously feel is rather important to them as they are
using it as a scapegoat to not switch the desktops…) Personally I would take
the option to absorb the costs (I doubt there would be much dif. actually) to
get out of the vender lock & take back control of my data. Then one doesn’t
have to worry about “end of product life” support issues anymore, and any future
upgradesmigrations will be the sole decision of the entity using the data – not
their software supplier…

Just sounds like the IT department hasn’t exactly come
clean in what is going on here….

[ Reply to This | # ]

Least we forget?
Authored by: Sunny Penguin on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 12:57 AM EST
IBM...
Domino Server running on Linux?
Notes Win32 Clients running on Linux under Wine?
All supported by IBM if I am not mistaken.
Doesn't Domino do calandering?

Did I miss something?

---
SCO directly to jail, do not collect two hundred dollars.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Exchange 5.5 End of Life Dec 2003
Authored by: Beam-me-up on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 01:05 AM EST

http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/support/lifecycle/Changes.asp

Exchange 5.5 went End of Life December though M$ generously offer an extra
2years support One year free, and I assume the Next will be chargeable.

If I was a member of this group I would be using this as an oportunity to begin
planning and development for Migration to a FOOS solution and they will be
forced to Upgrade to a M$ Product soon anyway



---
Beam Me Up Scotty, There no Intelligent life in SCO

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Sunny Penguin on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 01:05 AM EST
Has anyone suggested calling IBM?
Domino rocks, Notes for Win32 runs under wine.

http://www14.software.ibm.com/webapp/download/
preconfig.jsp?id=2003-12-18+03%3A31%
3A59.769577R&S_TACT=&S_CMP=&s=

---
SCO directly to jail, do not collect two hundred dollars.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 02:18 AM EST
what about samsung's openmail aquired from the openmail project with Hewlet packard?

I haven't really had a chance to try it out but I did download the 5 user license free version. I don't know what the costing is though.

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OT: SCO Australia puffs up
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 02:54 AM EST
<A
HREF="http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/os/story/0,2000048630,20282559,00.h
tm"
TARGET=_blank>http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/os/story/0,2000048630,20282559
,00.htm</A>
<BR><BR>
<I>However, SCO in the U.S. toughened its stance towards the end of the
year, warning it intended to sue large-scale Linux users for copyright
infringement. The company plans to start filing lawsuits within the next few
months, targeting large companies with significant Linux installations. The
initial round of lawsuits were expected to be filed <B>against 1,500
companies.</B></I>
<BR><BR>
My thought:
<BR><BR>
SCO total cash ~ $60m
<BR><BR>
$60m / 1500 = $40,000
<BR><BR>
And $40K does not seem sufficient to pay for much of a law suit. How many lawyer
hours is that?
<BR><BR>
Either the reporter has got it wrong, or SCO exaggerated to him, or SCO will be
going bankrupt through legal costs.

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Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 02:54 AM EST
The February 2003 edition of Linux Journal has an extensive article on replacing exchange. They also include these links as resources Mind you, it doens't look like my idea of fun.

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Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: RSC on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 03:19 AM EST
Its a sad fact that a lot of these type of PILOT schemes are a negotiating chip
for a lot of companies.

When you see the sort of MS reaction we had here in Australia when Telstra
started making noises about ditching MS, who wouldn't want do scare MS into
dropping their prices.

RSC

---
----
An Australian who IS interested.

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Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 03:23 AM EST
Often the all or nothing approach is the wrong way.

In my case I use win4lin (from Netraverse) as a stepping stone between MS and
Linux.

This wonderful product has allowed me to work mostly in Linux but continue to
use the Windows products I can't do without (Dreamweaver MX and Photoshop)

I used to use all the MS Office products as well but that is no longer necessary
since Open Office 1.1

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I have the answer
Authored by: the_thunderbird on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 03:47 AM EST
Right, lets give Newham a Helping hand.
I have the answer that could give Newham a new breath of life when it comes to a
Linux migration.

1. Contact Oracle about their Collaboration System, which mimics exchange, is a
lot faster, more stable and less expensive than exchange is/ Use Netware with
Groupwise.

2. Hire a programmer to build a connector for Evolution/ Build a new Email
client to support it, or use Novell/Ximian Connector for Evolution (if you go
with groupwise then use Novell's Linux Groupwise Client).

I have done research on all of the above, it is a lot cheaper to go the linux
route than windows, I can bring up a number of case studies I have done and I
can PROVE that Linux provides more cost savings than that of Windows by far.

My two pents ;)

[ Reply to This | # ]

Thought of another solution
Authored by: the_thunderbird on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 03:48 AM EST
This is a nice short term solution: Codeweavers!!!! Use Xandros desktop, that
will provide a good cost savings :)

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Interesting article.
Authored by: RSC on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 04:11 AM EST
Here is an interesting article. http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,876 03,00.html RSC.

---
----
An Australian who IS interested.

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Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 04:27 AM EST
I was of the belief that Groklaw would focus on Linux in the context of the SCO
claims, the SCO v. IBM lawsuit, and related topics. This thread is focusing on
MS-Exchange v. Linux. Could somebody please explain what I am missing out on ?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Give them Novell's phone number
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 05:09 AM EST
Novell/Ximian are going after the Exchange 5.5 market in a big way.

They now have a 5.5 connector for Ximian for precisely this sort of customer.
There are thousands of customers like this that want to connect Linux to
Exchange 5.5, and now they can thanks to Novell.

Of course, if you showed them the product they would probably come up with some
reason to not use it. Let's face it, these people never wanted to go to Linux,
it was all about using the threat of Linux to negotiate a discount from
Microsoft.

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Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 05:52 AM EST
Sounds to me like MIcrosoft have promised to knock a bundle off the Exchange
upgrade if these people stick to MS desktops....

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 06:03 AM EST
Newham's issue is one that my own office is having to consider. Linux is more
than fine for file/print/email, but if you have an office culture built up
around Microsoft Desktops and Email Clients, you need to duplicate the desktop
'experience' as much as possible to avoid further client training costs.

Assuming you keep Windows on the client side and upgrade your server side only,
you can duplicate (to a degree) the Shared Folders found on Exchange using SuSE
OpenExchange Server, for instance, but only with the 'newer' Outlook clients
for 2K and XP (I'm assuming that Newham is using Outlook 97/98 given that
they're still on Exchange 5.5). To do so would require the purchase of updated
Exchange CALs, which negates the savings you might make by switching to SLOX in
the first place.

On the other hand, assuming they switch to Linux desktops, they still need
clients that will connect to Exchange. This would mean having to upgrade to
Exchange 2000 anyway, which, unless they do so only as an interim measure to
export their data to an Open Source Server, would again negate any savings that
might be made.

Of course, all this becomes meaningless if - for example - management decide to
introduce a totally different user interface, such as the SLOX web-based mail
client. This would mean possible training costs and a 'cultural' adjustment to
working in a slightly different environment, but full support for groupware and
email services would be provided.

Interestingly, when my company migrated from MS Mail to Exchange some years ago,
the change to the user's working environment was pretty huge - but the
difference this made to working practices were negligible and I don't recall
anyone complaining greatly about it at the time (probably because this was a
M$-to-M$ move and was seen to be an acceptable move given it kept us 'in the
fold' as it were).

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Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: lithium on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 06:17 AM EST
The register has been following this story quite closely, and had a much more (IMO) informative article earlier this week. Call me cynical, but I don't think the trials were more bargaining tool than serious attempt at using free software in government.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Choice of topics recently.
Authored by: vegard on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 07:20 AM EST
This is no critisism of this article per se, it's a good article. But, groklaw
has until now been mainly a site about LEGAL issues surrounding IT and open
source, and not about advocacy as such. I feel there exist enough of those
sites, and I'm happy, because people have to be told these things.

However, my feeling is that Groklaw is more useful as a site about the LEGAL
issues.

Of course noone should deny Pamela and others to write also THESE articles -
but, I would suggest that either build a completely new site based on the SAME
system, or to make things separate sections. I don't know what is technically
and software-wise feasible at the current infrastructure, so this might not be
easy at all - but MY opinion is that it would be a better option.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Stonwell has more to say
Authored by: tcranbrook on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 08:02 AM EST
In a note about an interview with Blake Stonwell, No New SCO Lawsuit Monday , SCO will announce more losses.

"The SCO Group, which has made controversial copyright and trade secret threats against Linux users, is likely to announce a loss for its fourth quarter in a conference call Monday, but won't announce the anticipated lawsuit against a Linux-using firm at the same time. "We won't be announcing lawsuits Monday," said SCO spokesperson Blake Stowell in a phone interview Friday.

But they do promise more stock price puffing.

"Stowell said that The SCO Group is, however, likely to make a different announcement "Monday before the market opens". SCO attorney David Boies said that the company would sue a Linux user over copyright issues "within the next 90 days" on November 18th."

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 08:34 AM EST
As everyone is pointing out, there ARE alternatives if you decide to get off the
dime and start looking around.

When our company was founded we didn't have the cash to start fiddling with NT
and Exchange. Since our production servers were all Linux based we decided to
implement HP's Openmail (now Samsung Contact) instead. It provided us with all
the features of exchange without the headaches.

We are all running windows desktops (and looking to change that) and Outlook.
Samsung Contact gives is all the same support for Outlook and email
collaboration, a strong web client and more robust server side features than
Exchange. To Windows users, they can't tell the difference.

I have not yet tried the Linux client but it IS available.

Having said that, it's not an Open Source tool, but the price is very
reasonable and the support from Samsung has been really good. If I recall
correctly it's around $2k for 100 users.

And btw, we haven't had ANY downtime at all. All of the execs who came from an
Exchange background find that to be notable.

Alan

[ Reply to This | # ]

SCO tries it on in AUS/NZ
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 08:53 AM EST
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040109/152/eipdy.html dated Friday January 9, 09:35 AM

Looks like AUS/NZ is next in line for the SCO fud. Perhaps someone "down
under" might like to invite SCO's AUS/NZ boss, Kieran O'Shaughnessy, to
a barbie and give him a roasting. Verbal roasting, of course...

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 08:55 AM EST
Migration costs cited as a reason to stay with Windows?

Someone may want to explain to them that migration costs are "one
time" charges. Staying with Windows is akin to having a large, always
thirsty, mosquito sugically grafted to your throat.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT: Missing Risks Question ???
Authored by: Sunny Penguin on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 09:54 AM EST
I have read on the Yahoo message board that it is possible for Baystar to ask
for the 50 Million back, since the SCO risks were not listed.
Is this true?
Could it have been planned this way, as a way out for SCO?
ie: SCO goes Bankrupt, SCO cannot pay IBM or Redhat and Baystar gets first pick
of the SCO leftovers.

---
SCO directly to jail, do not collect two hundred dollars.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: zjimward on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 09:58 AM EST

The people at Bynari, Inc. also have products that run on Linux to link with
Exchange Server and to do the same job.

http://www.bynari.net

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: zjimward on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 10:14 AM EST

Also there is the GNU project call:

BILL Open Workgroup Server
http://www.billworkgroup.org/billworkgroup/home

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: newt on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 10:24 AM EST
Hmmm. Odd that a story microsoft leads me to finally register and say
something. This is another article about the same story, this time on The
Register: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/34724.html.

From that you can probably see that Newham aren't overly pro microsoft
and are, in fact fairly pro open source. Oddly, they didn't actually take
part in the desktop linux trial mentioned.

Newham's primary issues appear to be the impact on the services they
provide if they were to move from exchange.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: KBellve on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 10:28 AM EST

We need a helping hand.

I am a Linux user in a group of Linux users at the University of Massachusetts
in Worcester. Yes, the same state that is advocating Open Source.

There is a struggle going on here about moving to Open Standards, and Open
Source.

Currently, we run an Exchange 2000 server to run email and calendering. Our
system has been brought down many times due to Email Worms and Viruses. But,
Calendering is what our IS (Information Services) says people want. But, it is
hard to replicate that on the backend.

There is a movement to force the University to use open standards for email,
like IMAP instead of MAPI. IMAP is available but Outlook is installed by
default.

There is a movement to force the University to use Apache for its web servers.

There is a movement to use Mozilla and OpenOffice for Desktop replacements.

However, it is amazing that our IS isn't very flexible about moving away from
Microsoft.

I sure wish there was a approach to go about moving the University towards Open
Standards and Open Source. I suspect there are a lot of people around the world
who are doing what we are doing. People are learning about Linux in high school.
They are learning about it in College. People who are running IT departments now
grew up with Microsoft. But, people who will be replacing those people will be
growing up with Linux.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Suse Makes a groupware server
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 12:22 PM EST
Suse has a new groupware server that just plain rocks and does
calendar and such as well. We loaded up a test version here and it looks really
nice.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 12:44 PM EST
The solutions are relatively simple:

Go to Sun's Java Desktop. Staroffice 7, built on OpenOffice 1.1, gives an expected 95% conversion rate, and often better. Font problems go away using SO7 vice OO1.1

For Exchange compatability, use Ximian/Novell's "Connector" which attaches to the Open Source Evolution product. Don't buy it yourself, get Sun to provide it with the Desktop.

If you are ready to make the bigger moves, the replace MS Exchange with SuSE's OpenExchange. Then you don't need Ximian's Connector, and you get all the group scheduling, resource scheduling, etc. that you do with MS, and the Evolution client looks and feels like MS Outlook.

Given the price points that Sun is using (i.e. $25/desk, fully supported) you can't go wrong.

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT: New Stowell quotes
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 12:46 PM EST
Read carefully, does this look like gaming, or compliance?

Incidentally, I see they are still looking for IBM to give them a list of
everything that IBM ever did. So I'm guessing the former - it sounds like they
want to identify some stuff, and then leave the door open to add more stuff once
they've seen everything IBM ever done - which fits with Kevin McBride's
comments on Dec 5, but doesn't sound like the route the judge wanted to go.



http://www.vnunet.com/News/1151910

SCO has confirmed that its lawyers will provide IBM with the additional evidence
it has requested on 12 January, in keeping with the deadline set by a judge.

...

Blake Stowell, SCO's director of public relations, told vnunet.com: "SCO
will then have the opportunity to request of the judge that she compel IBM [to]
provide us with the evidence that SCO has requested but not yet received from
IBM."

Stowell would not say what evidence it is awaiting.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: icorson on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 02:05 PM EST
Oh im not disagreeing.. I think you are correct that you need user licenses for
SuSE.. Im just stating that you cant use the SBS for over a certain amount of
users. At some point i bet the prices come out about even for each.

SuSE open exchange's website says this:
" SUSE LINUX Openexchange Server 4.1
Base license with ten groupware clients and an unlimited number of external
e-mail clients (POP3/IMAP).
The use of a web mail client requires a groupware user license.
Order no.: 2118-2EN
US $ 1,249.00 "

So your email clients have unlimited access where as the groupware users need
licenses.. Heres the prices:

" Additional groupware client licenses
Number of licenses Order no. Price (exclusive of VAT)
(5 licenses) 2118-1INT-CL-5 US $ 249.00
(20 licenses) 2118-1INT-CL-20 US $ 949.00
(50 licenses) 2118-1INT-CL-50 US $ 2,249.00
(250 licenses) 2118-1INT-CL-250 US $ 9,499.00
(1000 licenses) 2118-1INT-CL-1000 US $ 32,000.00

All prices for products and services are non-binding and subject to change.
"

Now to upgrade the same for Exchange is: well i cant find that on MS's
site?????

But SuSE does look pretty pricey,, but i dont know what im comparing it to,
pricewise :)

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OT: Didio hard at work discrediting linux
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 02:21 PM EST
Here's an interesting update on what everyone favourite clueless "analyst" is up to.

Laura Didio, an analyst at research firm Yankee Group, said although Linux works well for smaller companies with a tech-savvy IT department, the cost of installing the operating system in a large enterprise setting is still prohibitively expensive. She's putting the finishing touches on her own Windows/Linux TCO report, due out next month (and not sponsored by anyone, she emphasized), which will conclude as much. If anything, she expects Linux pricing in the enterprise environment to increase in the next five years, when one factors in the increased costs of interoperability, warranties, integration and technical services and support. "I don't think Linux is going to end up any cheaper than Windows, in fact, in certain environments it's going to be more expensive," Didio said. "In other words, users are going to find out that there's no such thing as a free lunch." (emphasis added by me)

Laura doesn't even appear to be trying to cover her bias anymore, in fact she even uses the same wording as SCO when talking about Linux.

[ Reply to This | # ]

Google first suit?
Authored by: pfusco on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 03:19 PM EST
Just got this off of the Google site (where else lol)

SEATTLE (Reuters) - SCO Group Inc., the software company that is suing IBM and extracting royalties from other Linux users, said Friday that it had held "low-level talks" with Internet search engine Google about a license agreement. "Certainly if they're using 10,000 Linux servers that include our intellectual property as part of Unix, we would want them to license," said Blake Stowell, a SCO spokesman

Looks like they may be I think.

---
only the soul matters in the end

[ Reply to This | # ]

OT:SCO approached Google about Linux license
Authored by: Stefan on Friday, January 09 2004 @ 03:30 PM EST
http://www.forbes.com/markets/bonds/newswire/2004/01/09/rtr1205268.html

FUD or just some good old SCO blackmail?

[ Reply to This | # ]

Everyone overlooks the obvious
Authored by: Beyonder on Saturday, January 10 2004 @ 09:47 AM EST
I guess everyone suddenly forgot about SUSE, which has a product called
"Open Exchange", which is, by the way, 100% compatible with
Microsofts stuff (outlook, exchange, etc).
that's one...

and another one, what about Lotus (now IBM) Notes ?
Did we suddenly forget about this too?
Yes, it's available for linux (etc etc) too.
And Domino is there as well.

and finally, why are we trying to emulate a total unstable, proprietary system
by a company intent on ruling the known world including our very thoughts (yes,
Billy boy I'm talking about you)... ? I mean... why?!? Why not run something
that's open source, that's stable, reliable, secure, and actually WORKS? I
guess people are just too used to worms, viruses, crashes, etc etc...

there's evolution does a really good job.
and don't forget the new stuff in KDE which has collaborative stuff as well,
while not exchange/outlook compatible (?!?) it looks a lot better and works a
lot better.

Why are we using Microsoft crap as the bar by which we measure other products?
They aren't the bar, and shouldn't be.

You want office stuff? Use Openoffice, it works 100% (or as close to 100% as
we'll ever get). K-Office (KDE) is also very good, but OpenOffice is really the
one to watch.

no I know of has ever had a problem using OpenOffice and sharing documents with
Windows users.

Until Office2003 that is. and oh yes, there's not going to be an office2003
emulation for very good reasons.... we don't want to! ;)

now if you want truely portable documents, that go anywhere, Linux, BSD, Sun,
SGI, AIX, Windows, Mac, whatever, then use the format that was designed for such
things... PDF!

[ Reply to This | # ]

Maybe These Folks Need a Helping Hand?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 12 2004 @ 11:11 AM EST
*** Q = They're going to keep Exchange 5.5 and upgrade their desktop client?

A = I think the latest Outlook client will force them to upgrade Exchange very
soon.

Q = They're going to upgrade Exchange and keep their clients?

A = With what money?

General Q = They don't have money but the're still negotiating with MS?
Negotiating what? When you don't have money you don't negotiate anything.

Anyhow, there're a lot of people who didn't do their homework at the council.
I think they've looked at Linux only so nobody could blame them of spilling
public money. Otherwise they would've noticed products like Samsung Contact and
Nulllogic (for small workgroups).

[ Reply to This | # ]

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